All-Purpose Soccer Parents Thread

Discussion in 'Youth & HS Soccer' started by becomingasoccermom, Apr 15, 2020.

  1. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    Personally I think soccer just has not caught on like football, basketball, and baseball in the US. Yes, it's getting better. BUT, many kids will play football (even flag or touch), basketball, and baseball just for fun in the US at the younger ages. Soccer is just not ingrained into the US. And maybe it never will be.

    IMO, pay to play is an excuse. Every club we've been associated with has had scholarship opportunities for those kids for whom it was too expensive. In addition to the cost, you have transportation issues (for games as well as training). But again, every team we've been associated with has arranged for transportation for those who couldn't manage themselves.
     
  2. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    I think it's the families that aren't quite poor enough to get financial aid, but not quite wealthy enough to feel comfortable spending the thousands it takes. Flights and hotels for all these various tournaments in different states. If the parents are doctors then it's just an affordable luxury, but if the parents are say teachers and have 2 or 3 kids in various activities then they will struggle. And for single parents, nevermind the cost, the logistics alone is very difficult.
     
  3. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    So why does the US do so well in basketball and baseball? I don't mention football because that doesn't even have a "club" component that I'm familiar with. Basketball and baseball do (as does softball). They go to tournaments, requiring hotels (and possibly flights). Both of those sports have cost issues as well as logistics issues. So why can those families figure it out but soccer families can't?

    In fact, look at the participation rates (source):
    [​IMG]
    Soccer participation dropped nearly 20% since 2008. Football, even with all the concerns about safety and concussions dropped less than 2%. Basketball even went up. Baseball has dropped 15%. Granted, this includes 2020 when many sports were shutdown for at least a season.

    You want to talk expensive sports, try golf. At least $20 every time you go play (very possibly more).

    I simply don't think pay to play is a primary reason of why other countries are better than the US in soccer. AND, pay to play has been around on the female side of the sport also. So why has the US been so dominant in that?
     
  4. RealChicago

    RealChicago Member

    Real Madrid
    United States
    May 21, 2018
    #529 RealChicago, Oct 14, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2022
    Simple.

    Basketball, football and baseball are the "hungry sports". Soccer for the most part is a country club affair here. The leagues are locked behind stupid pay walls and unnecessary travel due to league politics and the money this all produces.

    You aren't having people gun for the pros to make money in the shit MLS league or NWSL. Kids in the hood don't even know about this stuff, what soccer is or how big it is in the world.

    For the wealthy that play soccer (and the majority of clubs near me are full of very, very wealthy families) its a bragging point for soccer scholarships or a car magnet. Not saying there aren't great players, but these kids aren't out every day playing on the lakefront dropping into pickup games whenever they want like basketball. I've been to a few D1 college games and have been very unimpressed with the level of play.

    Regarding the USA women's domination, it has to do with allocation of resources. I think once the rest of the world catches up in that department the USA women's game will start dropping quite quickly in terms of dominance.

    my 2 cents.
     
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  5. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    Sorry, not following. The "club" basketball & baseball teams don't pay to be in leagues/tournaments?

    And that has to with pay to play how? Very few are going to get rich by playing soccer in the US. Now, why is that? Because MLS & NWSL presumably aren't making as much money as NFL, NBA, and MLB, so they can't afford to pay as much.

    And the bolded is exactly my point. Pay to play isn't the problem. The problem is soccer just hasn't "caught hold" in the US like it has in other countries. Heck, look at the chart I posted. Football has almost as many participants as soccer (add the flag and tackle together). But in HS (since the above chart only covers 6-12yo)...
    upload_2022-10-14_10-14-24.png
     
  6. soccerdad72

    soccerdad72 Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Apr 5, 2021
    I'd say that baseball is going the way of soccer in the US as well. Does anyone play pickup baseball games anymore? For that matter, are there really even public ballfields around now that are even available for kids to go out and play on? Seems like most of the fields around us have signs on them saying they're for "reserved practice / games only".

    Baseball in the US has fallen behind most Latin American countries (and some Asian ones as well). How many players on MLB rosters are American right now? I'd venture a guess and say less than 50%.

    Football and basketball are king in the US. It's pretty much always been that way with football - partially because few other countries even play the sport.
     
  7. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    Not disagreeing, just throwing out an anecdote...

    At many of the soccer games we've gone to, I'll see people (father/son, two friends, etc) throwing either a football or a baseball. When's the last time you've gone to a football or baseball game and seen people kicking a soccer ball?
     
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  8. soccerdad72

    soccerdad72 Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Apr 5, 2021
    I haven't been to a football or baseball game since my kids stopped playing (they never played football), but I agree with your sentiment.

    That being said, at many of the soccer games I've been to, I've seen a lot of younger siblings juggling a soccer ball off on the side.
     
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  9. RealChicago

    RealChicago Member

    Real Madrid
    United States
    May 21, 2018
    They do, but it is different in my opinion. I can show up in the inner city and play a pickup basketball game at a very high level. That does not exist in soccer. MLS is a shit boring league to watch. You want to get people into it you gotta have top talent. We know this won't happen, they have to look to Europe. Lots of kids don't even know how flashy soccer can be if all they've seen is some bullshit MLS. Style and skill go hand in hand. Just like the culture the NBA created.


    I don't think pay to play is the reason soccer isn't successful in the USA of creating top notch talent. My hypothesis is it isn't the "hungry sport". If I had a benefactor I would open free soccer academies in the hood and introduce the sport there. It's non existent in those communities. What if we intercepted the kid who dominates basketball before he got there and threw him in soccer? In a generation if it took off in multiple areas the face of the sport would be way different.

    I don't think pay to play is the end all cause of our sucky system. It does play a factor though. I think we agree for the most part. I'd like to target communities traditionally not into soccer and introduce it there. I think that is the only way soccer improves here.
     
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  10. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For baseball--there are only a handful of countries outside the USA where baseball is a major sport, and only a few of those countries are affluent nations with a sizeable population.

    As for basketball--outside of official participation rates, it's one of the top informal/"street" sports in the country. You see lots of pickup basketball all over the country.

    Those are interesting numbers, but other than bicycling--which, honestly, I wonder what their metrics for that are--the only two team sports bigger than soccer are baseball & basketball. I wonder if the drop in soccer is happening mostly in the rec/house leagues.

    Plus clubs. But OTOH, you can play/practice a LOT if you live close to a course without having to travel.

    I'd agree that it's not a cause, but I'd argue that it is a contingency that keeps us from closing the gap.

    I think comparing Men-vs-Women in international soccer is very much apples & oranges. The baselines are/were VERY different.
     
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  11. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    And THATS my point. It's not just inner cities though. It's all over. Change THAT mindset (so there's a pickup soccer game going on everywhere) and then you'll see a change in USMNT.
    ETA: We were fortunate (even though it cost a lot of money) to travel with my son to Spain to a soccer tournament. A) There were soccer pitches all over the place. I don't know if they were public or not, but there were a lot of them and B) the pitches we played out (out in the boonies for many of them) were better than college facilities here... plenty of seating (many chair back), locker rooms, BARS!

    Has nothing to do with pay to play (what PP claimed).
     
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  12. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    And we've had this discussion before... if kids/families didn't have to pay to play, where does the money come from? You need to pay for:
    * Field upkeep
    * Coaches
    * Officials
    * Administration (for leagues/tournaments)... including websites, paperwork, etc.
    * Equipment (this is a small amount, but still needs to be paid)
    * I'm sure a lot of other things I'm forgetting

    Can you find enough sponsors to then not require the families to pay?
     
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  13. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The "travel" aspect of club sports is the problem, IMHO. Local, in-house playing opportunities could be accommodated at a fraction of the cost.

    My son played house league U-6 soccer, and later he played travel soccer as a teenager. Both were 'pay to play' but the cost for the former was $80/season, and for the latter was several hundred per season NOT counting travel costs themselves (gas, food, hotels, etc.).
     
  14. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    I don't think anyone would argue that "travel" (select, whatever you want to call it) is a step up from in house "rec" soccer. Can you get enough teams in house to even have a season? So now you need to travel, even if it's to surrounding communities.

    Is the coaching equal? We haven't done in house in a decade, but it's always been parent coached (and there's nothing wrong with that). But I would expect something more from a select/travel side.

    Select/travel also has more practices per week (we're used to two/week, but three/week is not unusual and I've even heard of some teams doing four). So that's more time for the coaches and more time on the field.
     
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  15. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course, I'm just saying that it's a spectrum, not all-or-nothing.

    I'd also argue we push for travel--and all its attendant costs--way too early.
     
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  16. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    My friend was debating whether to go to Canada for his son's upcoming game. Yes Canada, because -> MLS Next league. He literally has to decide (he's not rich, money is tight) if he wants to fly to Canada, not for a tournament, for a single game. Got me thinking about how much I'll need to budget for the teenage years. Ugh
     
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  17. NewDadaCoach

    NewDadaCoach Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Sep 28, 2019
    With regards to pay to play, I'm not comparing soccer in the US to other US sports. I'm comparing soccer in the US to soccer in other countries.

    Kids in the slums of Brazil and Senegal and France are playing soccer and a lot of pros have come from poor areas.
    Either they will play on some makeshift pitch like a street or... on a publicly supported pitch. In most countries there are a lot of pitches that are publicly funded in the poor/dense neighborhoods, so it's more accessible.

    But in the US it's far more organized, ie pay to play.

    In the poor countries, yes the top talent gets selected at a club. I'm not sure of the cost, but I think in a lot of cases it's not very expensive or it's free.

    But back to other sports in the US. When I was growing up the path to pro for baseball/basketball/football was high school -> college -> pro. So, not very expensive as it was ran through the schools. (this was the path for the stars we watched growing up - eg Michael Jordan)
    Nowadays yes it's all becoming more of a business.
     
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  18. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #543 bigredfutbol, Oct 14, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2022
    I could point out that neither your friend nor future You need to travel to see your teen sons play--but then again, I'm considering spending about a grand to fly overseas to possibly see my son play one game (no guarantee he'll even be on the game-day roster, let along get on the field). :)
     
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  19. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    I don't disagree. People want "the best" for their budding athlete. And how do you do that? By playing rec ball? No. That won't make them better. You need to get better coaching and play better competition, right? Sound familiar? ;)

    My oldest daughter played travel softball through middle school (she played Rec soccer but didn't like the running:laugh:). At the time we heard of travel tournaments for I'm pretty sure at U6. We didn't start SB until U10, so we weren't involved in that.
     
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  20. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    And again I say, if you can get the kids to play the sport on some makeshift pitch, or a backyard, or a parking lot, or wherever, then you'll have something. US kids are playing football, basketball, and baseball (maybe not, but we did as I grew up) for fun. I have a distinct memory of playing 1v1 baseball (with ghost runners) when I was under 10 in a friends' backyard. You don't see that much here.

    And again, that option has been available at every club we've been at.

    Yes, it IS a business.
     
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  21. smontrose

    smontrose Member

    Real Madrid
    Italy
    Aug 30, 2017
    Illinois, NW Suburb
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just did a quick skim of latest replies... Agree with Real_Chucago on most thoughts.

    But, simply, we are not truly developing our players.
    The emphasis from clubs and coaches is to create and push a mirage of success, at the elite level, by getting access to exclusive leagues then locking out the rest,trying to create local monopolies.
    Coaches too lazy to work with athletes one on one to maximize potential in the 4 key areas...
    I'd argue almost all of our American elite talent is just a product of odds and the sheer number of throughput.
    We should be MAKING elite players.
    How is our education system such sh1t? We don't put student success first.
    Until something could ever change this at youth level I hope there is some way for lower tiers like usl2, nisa, upsl to have some sort of chance to be profitable so that maybe we can at least have an alternative development path for players aged 18 to like 23...
    I'm kind of surprised the elite leagues and clubs of Europe haven't figured out a way to tap into our country with real academy clubs here to feed into their systems.
    Would it be forbidden in this country for them to contract and buy rights to our young players?
     
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  22. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    And I would also argue that there is no way of knowing:
    A) If your (@NewDadaCoach ) son will still be playing soccer
    B) If he will be good enough to play on a top team
    C) If he will want to play on a top team
    D) If whatever team he is on will travel to tournaments requiring flights

    I LOVE watching my kids play. We have driven 13 hours for tournaments, we have flown to tournaments, we went overseas for tournaments. We have also let DS ride with others, and go overseas with his teammates. If I had a choice, I'd make every game. Not always possible (whether financially or logistically).
     
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  23. sam_gordon

    sam_gordon Member+

    Feb 27, 2017
    Speaking as the parent of a college age player... IMO, a college degree is more important than playing a sport. How much would a European club offer a "better than average" player? Enough that they can support themselves thousands of miles from home? Do the European clubs NEED an influx of US talent?

    I agree, I hope the "under leagues" of professional soccer in the US are successful. I'm just not sure how much they are.
     
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  24. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lord, yes--I drank the Koolaid back in the day. :)

    Somedays, it seems like that was all another lifetime. Other days, I can remember it like it was yesterday.
     
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  25. bigredfutbol

    bigredfutbol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 5, 2000
    Woodbridge, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My experience in club soccer is that far too many youth coaches aren't really coaches, they're recruiters.

    If parents would stop judging player 'development' on win-loss records, the system would likely improve.
     
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