AFI's Top 50 / BFI's Top 50; are these "great" films? What makes a film great?

Discussion in 'Movies, TV and Music' started by Mel Brennan, Mar 24, 2003.

  1. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan AN INTERVIDUAL

    Apr 8, 2002
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    AFI's Top 100:

    1. "Citizen Kane," 1941
    2. "Casablanca," 1942
    3. "The Godfather," 1972
    4. "Gone With the Wind," 1939
    5. "Lawrence of Arabia," 1962
    6. "The Wizard of Oz," 1939
    7. "The Graduate," 1967
    8. "On the Waterfront," 1954
    9. "Schindler's List," 1993
    10. "Singin' in the Rain," 1952
    11. "It's a Wonderful Life," 1946
    12. "Sunset Boulevard," 1950
    13. "The Bridge on the River Kwai," 1957
    14. "Some Like it Hot," 1959
    15. "Star Wars," 1977
    16. "All About Eve," 1950
    17. "The African Queen," 1951
    18. "Psycho," 1960
    19. "Chinatown," 1974
    20. "One Flew over the Cuckoo's Nest," 1975
    21. "The Grapes of Wrath," 1940
    22. "2001: A Space Odyssey," 1968
    23. "The Maltese Falcon," 1941
    24. "Raging Bull," 1980
    25. "E.T. - The Extra-Terrestrial," 1982
    26. "Dr. Strangelove," 1964
    27. "Bonnie and Clyde," 1967
    28. "Apocalypse Now," 1979
    29. "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington," 1939
    30. "The Treasure of the Sierra Madre," 1948
    31. "Annie Hall," 1977
    32. "The Godfather Part II," 1974
    33. "High Noon," 1952
    34. "To Kill a Mockingbird," 1962
    35. "It Happened One Night," 1934
    36. "Midnight Cowboy," 1969
    37. "The Best Years of Our Lives," 1946
    38. "Double Indemnity," 1944
    39. "Doctor Zhivago," 1965
    40. "North by Northwest," 1959
    41. "West Side Story," 1961
    42. "Rear Window," 1954
    43. "King Kong," 1933
    44. "The Birth of a Nation," 1915
    45. "A Streetcar Named Desire," 1951
    46. "A Clockwork Orange," 1971
    47. "Taxi Driver," 1976
    48. "Jaws," 1975
    49. "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs," 1937
    50. "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid," 1969


    I find the above list highly debatable after #3...
    Contrast that list with the BFI's list:

    1. "The Third Man," 1949
    2. "Brief Encounter," 1945
    3. "Lawrence of Arabia," 1962
    4. "The 39 Steps," 1935
    5. "Great Expectations," 1946
    6. "Kind Hearts and Coronets," 1946
    7. "Kes," 1969
    8. "Don't Look Now," 1973
    9. "The Red Shoes," 1948
    10. "Trainspotting," 1996
    11. "The Bridge on the River Kwai," 1957
    12. "If....," 1968
    13. "The Ladykillers," 1955
    14. "Saturday Night and Sunday Morning," 1960
    15. "Brighton Rock," 1947
    16. "Get Carter," 1971
    17. "The Lavender Hill Mob," 1951
    18. "Henry V," 1944
    19. "Chariots of Fire," 1981
    20. "A Matter of Life and Death," 1946
    21. "The Long Good Friday," 1980
    22. "The Servant," 1963
    23. "Four Weddings and a Funeral," 1994
    24. "Whisky Galore!," 1949
    25. "The Full Monty," 1997
    26. "The Crying Game," 1992
    27. "Doctor Zhivago," 1965
    28. "Monty Python's Life of Brian," 1979
    29. "Withnail and I," 1987
    30. "Gregory's Girl," 1980
    31. "Zulu," 1964
    32. "Room at the Top," 1958
    33. "Alfie," 1966
    34. "Gandhi," 1982
    35. "The Lady Vanishes," 1938
    36. "The Italian Job," 1969
    37. "Local Hero," 1983
    38. "The Commitments," 1991
    39. "A Fish Called Wanda," 1988
    40. "Secrets & Lies," 1995
    41. "Dr. No," 1962
    42. "The Madness of King George," 1994
    43. "A Man For All Seasons," 1966
    44. "Black Narcissus," 1947
    45. "The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp," 1943
    46. "Oliver Twist," 1948
    47. "I'm All Right Jack," 1959
    48. "Performance," 1970
    49. "Shakespeare in Love," 1998
    50. "My Beautiful Laundrette," 1985


    Shakespeare in Love? The Commitments? Uh, no.
    The Long good Friday? Hell yeah.

    Well, what IYO makes a film great?
    What films are missing from these lists?
    Which ones should be expunged?
     
  2. Bethany

    Bethany New Member

    Sep 3, 2002
    Performance, Sound, Writing, Cinematography, Artistic Direction, Lighting, Sets, Movement, Length, just about everything.
     
  3. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
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    The AFI selection is ************************, of course, but looking at the two lists together proves just how great Hollywood has been and how weak the British film industry has always been.

    I mean, how many countries would have to dredge up crap like Chariots of Fire, Four Weddings and a Funeral, Doctor Zhivago, A Man For All Seasons, and Shakespeare in Love for a Top 50 list?
     
  4. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan AN INTERVIDUAL

    Apr 8, 2002
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Lol. Relatively speaking this is true...
     
  5. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia

    15. "Star Wars," 1977
    28. "Apocalypse Now," 1979
    36. "Midnight Cowboy," 1969
    39. "Doctor Zhivago," 1965
    46. "A Clockwork Orange," 1971
    50. "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid," 1969



    8. "Don't Look Now," 1973
    10. "Trainspotting," 1996
    11. "The Bridge on the River Kwai," 1957
    12. "If....," 1968
    14. "Saturday Night and Sunday Morning," 1960
    19. "Chariots of Fire," 1981
    23. "Four Weddings and a Funeral," 1994
    24. "Whisky Galore!," 1949
    25. "The Full Monty," 1997
    26. "The Crying Game," 1992
    27. "Doctor Zhivago," 1965
    28. "Monty Python's Life of Brian," 1979
    33. "Alfie," 1966
    34. "Gandhi," 1982
    38. "The Commitments," 1991
    39. "A Fish Called Wanda," 1988
    42. "The Madness of King George," 1994
    43. "A Man For All Seasons," 1966
    46. "Oliver Twist," 1948
    47. "I'm All Right Jack," 1959
    49. "Shakespeare in Love," 1998
     
  6. Owen Gohl

    Owen Gohl Member

    Jun 21, 2000
    Star Wars is an important film due to the effect it had on the industry, but it is not great. It owes too much to Kurosawa, Flash Gordon, and even Leni Riefensthal.

    I'm surprised the BFI list doesn't include:

    The Cruel Sea
    A Hard Day's Night
    In Which We Serve
    This Sporting Life (rugby, not soccer)

    I'd have thrown in The Dambusters and The Four Feathers (39 version) but that would be too many war films.

    There are a number of good British policiers from the late 50s and early 60s but I don't know if they'd belong in the top 50. Question is, what does? It's hard to think of 21 realistic replacements.
     
  7. sch2383

    sch2383 New Member

    Feb 14, 2003
    Northern Virginia
    It seems like most of those movies are at least 30 years old. Great movies are made now, but critcs have a mental block that prevents them from seeing the greatness.
     
  8. TheSlipperyOne

    TheSlipperyOne Member+

    Feb 29, 2000
    Denver
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Re: Re: AFI's Top 50 / BFI's Top 50; are these "great" films? What makes a film great?

    So "The Bridge on the River Kwai" is good enough for the AFI, but not the BFI? :p
     
  9. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
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    Tottenham Hotspur FC
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    Re: Re: Re: AFI's Top 50 / BFI's Top 50; are these "great" films? What makes a film great

    Oops. I didn't mean for "The Bridge on the River Kwai," "If....," or "Saturday Night and Sunday Morning" to be there.
     
  10. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    100 movies and not one with Rutger Hauer. Something is very very wrong.

    I think a movie with one good scene in it can be considered good, but any movie with even one boring or untrue section cannot be considered great. A movie on a list like this should be wall-to-wall great. It should also leave something that sticks inside you for a while.

    I have not seen many of these movies, but I was surprised to see "Local Hero" on the second list. It is a great and slightly bizzare comedy and a personal favorite, but I don't think of it as one of the best movies ever made.
     
  11. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
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    A movie's greatness is based on how effectively it negotiates the rules and traditions of cinema's past and offers hope for its future.
     
  12. Father Ted

    Father Ted BigSoccer Supporter

    Manchester United, Galway United, New York Red Bulls
    Nov 2, 2001
    Connecticut
    Club:
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    Re: Re: AFI's Top 50 / BFI's Top 50; are these "great" films? What makes a film great?

    Looking at the AFI list, besides "Schindler's List" there is no movie in over 20 years. So on this criteria, there isnt much hope for quality films in the future.
     
  13. MeridianFC

    MeridianFC Member

    Jul 26, 1999
    Washington, DC USA
    Re: Re: AFI's Top 50 / BFI's Top 50; are these "great" films? What makes a film great?

    True, but in addition I would offer that a great movie should have a very strong emotional and intellectual impact on the viewer. I often like to say that a great piece of art, in this case film, should be able to pull you from wherever you happen to be (emotionally, physcially, spiritually, etc) at the time to that "place" that the movie is at.

    Ideally, though not necessarily, film should also operate on many levels, from entertainment all the way through to education touching many other facets in between. In addition there is often some undefineable element that speaks directly to the core being of the viewer in the way any great piece of art, be it music, literature, or what have you does.

    It is a confluence of both objective and subjective criteria.

    Now GT and I might be talking about the some of the same things (probably included in cinema's traditions and rules are some of the things I'm talking about) but I don't believe that one has to have knowledge of the rules to recognize great art. It certainly helps, expands, and elucidates to have the knowledge, but movies at their core are mechanically reproduced stories meant to be told to some untold, usually larger than 1, number of people.

    Or some ************ like that. Basically a movie should be cool. :)
     
  14. GringoTex

    GringoTex Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    1301 miles de Texas
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    Re: Re: Re: AFI's Top 50 / BFI's Top 50; are these "great" films? What makes a film great

    I agree, but bad movies often do that to me, too. The recent version of Les Miserables comes to mind. Made me cry like a baby, and that movie blows.
     
  15. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan AN INTERVIDUAL

    Apr 8, 2002
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    "John Q." made me cry like a baby; a horrible film that had a moment that struck me, and I was done...
     
  16. MeridianFC

    MeridianFC Member

    Jul 26, 1999
    Washington, DC USA
    Re: Re: Re: Re: AFI's Top 50 / BFI's Top 50; are these "great" films? What makes a film g

    Point taken, but what I was trying to get at was something a little different. Obviously a movie that blows chunks will force you to have a reaction, usually violent.
     
  17. DoctorJones24

    DoctorJones24 Member

    Aug 26, 1999
    OH
    Didn't we once have a thread based on "Embarrasingly Bad Movies That Made You Cry?"

    Mine is unbelievable: Rocky IV. The scene when he says the to the crowd, "Then the whole world can change!" Ok, so not actually blubbering, but definitely misted over.

    As for the point of THIS thread, I like the definitions of "great" offerred so far, but I think that without the added note of "endurance," one can't really argue very seriously for greatness. That is, time ultimately does help clarify the issue.
     
  18. Dolemite

    Dolemite Member+

    Apr 2, 2001
    East Bay, Ca
    i cried for the entire duration of "Pluto Nash"
     
  19. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan AN INTERVIDUAL

    Apr 8, 2002
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    I agree.

    And since I'm currently hating on Jackson and his so-called Tolkien adaptation, The Two Towers, I'll submit that this film, over time, will be less and less celebrated as the things for which it is already considered "great" (effects and sound) become yesterday;s technology, and the viewer is left with script (shit) and acting (none, except for Otto, who is given nothing to work with by the aforementioned fecal script)...

    Rocky IV? Well, mine's John Q., so I can't really talk, but...Rocky IV?
    :)
     
  20. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
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    The two lists seem to have notably different standards. AFI seems to look for films that were unique and had an impact on films after them. BFI seemed to be more interested in the story first. Thus movies like Local Hero and A Long Good Firday make it on BFI, and the Rear Window and North By Northwest do not. I am slightly amazed that The Days of Wine and Rose (I think that is the title) didn't make it on either list. Additionally, on BFI, I think Big should be included at the expense of The Full Monty.

    Ben Hur also seems to be missing.

    A great movie is one that challenges the viewer in story: "Could I do what they did and get away with it?" "Would I risk turning my life upside down for him/her/that?" Additionally, a great movie must be visually astounding. Schindler's List certianly fits that criteria. A great movie can combine emotion and awe.

    But what do I know, I cried for the Karate Kid.
     
  21. whirlwind

    whirlwind New Member

    Apr 4, 2000
    Plymouth, MI, USA
    The BFI list should have included:

    - Kenneth Brannagh's version of "Henry V"
    - "Pink Floyd: The Wall"
    - "The Lion in Winter"
     
  22. oman

    oman Member

    Jan 7, 2000
    South of Frisconsin
    I cried at the end of Raising Arizona. Cause I wanted me a toddler who would grow up to play ball, but all I have a swarthy short Mexican kids, dammit...
     

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