There is little rhyme or reason to who teams play in Reserve football. The Reserve leagues include teams from multiple divisions. Some clubs take the reserve setup a lot more seriously than others. Other clubs don't even field reserve teams. In general, reserve matches are not a reliable indication of a player's ultimate quality, although they help reveal whether or not he has mastered certain skills. Neil Mellor of Liverpool, for instance, was a goal a game (almost automatic) for most of two seasons and could not hardly get any playing time (even three years after he first appeared). I think he is doing okay at West Ham now (he is on loan) but he is not exactly lighting up the First Division. Reserve games are great for fitness, developing referees and helping units learn to play together. That is about it.
And this is exactly my point about Freddy. People are on here trying to convince others that going to England and sitting on a youth and/or reserve team is better for Freddy than playing in MLS. that's total crap. Although the EPL as a whole is certainly better than MLS, MLS is certainly FAR SUPERIOR to the reserve and/or youth teams of the EPL. That being said, Freddy should ply his trade here, until he is of age to join the EPL proper.
The Premier Reserve League includes all of the Premiership, plus half of the First Division. Now, maybe MLS is better preparation than an English reserve team; maybe it isn't. Either way, let's keep the discussion relevant. If Eddie Lewis is on-topic, let's see references to EPL reserve league goals, not hat tricks against the reserve team of 3rd-division Oxford United.
Adu's agent says it will be "weeks, not months" when a deal is announced with either MLS or a Euro club: http://sports.yahoo.com/sow/news?slug=adusoptions&prov=socceram&type=lgns
Fulham only moved to the Premier Reserve League (South) in the (promotion) 01/02 season. Previously they played in the Combination League. Incidentally, the Premier Reserve League includes just about all First Division sides, on a regional basis. If you think Reserve team football is better for Adu than first team football at a lower level, guess again. Here are several examples why Premier League Managers disagree with you: Neil Mellor - 21 year old rugged striker with a pedigree (U21 star and father Ian was an English First Division player for many years at Manchester City) U19/Reserve team goals: 01/02 - 46 goals (tops on Reserve side) Reserve team goals: 02/03 - 20 (tops on Reserve side). Total first team appearances: 6. Neil Mellor has made a history of dismantling Reserve teams and even at a physically mature 21 years of age, that has merited him almost NO playing time. What he has gotten has been in Worthington Cup matches (playing against lower division teams) and mop-up duty in some fairly meaningless Continental competitions. This year, rather than waste him in the reserves again, Liverpool shipped him off to West Ham (first division) for more first team experience. -------------------------------------------------------- Anthony Le Tellec and Florient Sinama-Pongelle These names might not be particularly familiar to you - but they will be in a few years. Liverpool purchased these French youth stars for £3million. They are currently the best French players at the U23 level. At 17/18 years of age, they have an even better pedigree than Freddy Adu. They led France's U17s to the U17 World Championship in 2001 (Trinidad and Tobego). Sinama-Pongelle only scored 9 goals in the competition (setting the record for the tournament) en route winning the Golden Ball (best player) and Golden Shoe (best scorer). Le Tellec (an attacking midfielder) is an even better prospect, although he only managed to earn the Silver Ball for the competition. Last season, rather than place these players in the Reserve side, Gerard Houllier left them in France so that they could play on the woeful Le Havre (Le Championnet) side. This year he has brought them to 'Pool, but Le Tellec is getting regular first team action and Sinama-Pongelle would if he was not in a bit of a slump. Both are playing in the reserve team frequently (much to their French U23 coach's chagrin) but that is simply because of the depth of the squad at 'Pool and the need for these already well-developed (physically players) to get accustomed to the rigors of English football. Many other Liverpool potential stars are currently on loan with first division (even second division) sides to help them get access to competitive football: Richie Partridge (Nationwide 1st Division), Steven Warnock (Nationwide 2nd Division), Alou Diarra (French 2nd Division), Djimi Toure (French 2nd Division - 2 years ago) . . . If proven, physically mature youth players like Mellor, Le Tellec and Sinama-Pongelle are better off in lower division getting first team action - how are we supposed to believe that a 14 or 15 year old Freddy Adu, who is nowhere near physical maturity, is going to be better off in Reserve team football? Most people place the playing level of MLS at middle/high Nationwide first division. This is reasonable, as solid but not spectacular MLS players like Eddie Lewis, Ben Olsen have been impact players at first division sides. If Premier League managers believe that first division represents a higher competitive level than their reserve sides, it is probably safe for us to assume that MLS represents a higher competitive level than reserve sides. One other note of caution - English Reserve Leagues are infamous for poor refereeing. Now say what you want about MLS referees, they are probably better than guys who are not regularly refereeing in the Nationwide and/or Premiership in England. Reserve team matches often denigrate into very physical or even worse, sporadically very physical competitions between older players bitter that they are not in the first team and partially developed youngsters. Because these guys are often anxious to make ANY impression they can in order to get first team. Mixing those guys with snot-nosed kids who aren't going to get a sniff of first team time for a year or two is not always the best environment for a youth star. When reading Reserve Team reports - it is frequent to note comments such as: "Had this been a premier league competition, X (in this case Salif Diao) would almost surely have been sent off". Anyone who is familiar with the level of physicality in the Premier League is likely to be chilled by the prospects of Freddy Adu playing in a much rougher/less-controlled environment.
Dude, if you're going to try to correct me, please get your facts straight. 12 of the 24 First Division sides have teams in the Premier Reserve League ... like I said, "half." Good gravy. Of course it's better to play in the French First Division (top level) than the Premier League reserves! But if Adu went to England, nothing would prevent him from going on a similar loan. Outside of Internet message boards, nobody places MLS that high. Look, the Crew just signed Mark Williams to one of their international slots. He went from being a benchwarmer at the bottom of the First Division straight into an MLS starting line-up. That's not an atypical situation, either. And yet, English teams put their top young prospects into these games all the time. Clearly, they ought to loan them to MLS, instead.
And this sarcastic point of yours is exactly why Adu should stay in the U.S. The Brits keep their top youth in England so that they can MONITOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF THEIR OWN PLAYERS .......... players that they have more at stake in developing and who will be taken care of in the best way possible under optimal circumstances (both mentally and physically) because of their potential worth to the home side (England). Adu should do the same thing. Stay at home and develop both mentally and emotionally amongst those who are certainly most concerned about his long term growth in the sport. Thanks for making my point for me while trying to denigrate someone elses opinion. cheers.
English clubs are in the business of developing players for their own benefit, not for the English National Team. They developed Kewell for Australia, as well as most of Ireland's national team, and there's no reason they wouldn't do their damnedest for Adu.
I apologize for my mistake. When searching for more information, I confused the Football League Premier Reserve Division as another division of the Premier Reserve League. But Le Havre was 2nd Division two seasons ago and is 2nd Division again this season. They were miserable in Le Championnet and Houllier still thought long and hard about leaving his starlets (as well as Traore and Diarra) in the French Second Division. That is not a particularly high quality of play. When he decided to bring Le Tellec and Sinama-Pongelle to Melwood/Anfield - it was only because they were going to get first team action and he wanted to oversee their training. Not because Reserve football was at a higher level than the French 2nd division. Except if he goes to England, it will likely be as a amateur (not a professional). The FIFA law everyone keeps signing would prevent him from signing professional forms for a team in his non-home country. As a result, loaning him to MLS does not avoid the connundrum of signing a professional contract with a non-home nation league. On the other hand, if he signs amateur forms, that might put stipulations on his opportunities to be loaned to another club. I am not sure about restrictions associated with amateur ("apprentice") contracts. Some do and some don't. There certainly are not very many 15 year olds playing tons of reserve matches. You still have not responded directly to some of the criticisms that I have made of the level of play - even when I have offered empirical evidence. Why not? Don't you think that Kirovski's, Mellor's and other players strike rates at the reserve level tell something about the type of football that is played? At least give me some credit for siting actual data. BTW has Mellor exactly set the First Division on fire? He is after all one of the top U21 players for England. Why is he struggling to even get into West Ham's line up when he was so dynamic at the Reserve team level if it is so good? If Daryl Powell, Mark Williams and Gilles Grimandi stepped in and immediately looked like men among boys in MLS, I would agree with you. But the fact is, players come from Prima Liga sides (Igor Simutenkov-Tenerife), MFL sides (Albert Rizo-Nexaca, Luis Hernandez-America), EPL/Le Championnet sides (Gilles Grimandi-Arsenal), top Argentinian sides (Forchetti, Fabbro-Boca Juniors) and don't completely set the league on fire. This is just a list of the top of my head - I am sure there are other, better examples. Gilles Grimandi stated that the surprisingly good level of play was one of the reasons he didn't want to play in MLS. He didn't want to have to work so hard! There are some exceptions like John Spencer and Robbie O'Brien - but these guys were on EPL (Chelsea and Everton) and Seria A squads (Middlesbrough and Inter Milan) before going to the SPL and had serious motivational/injury problems before coming to MLS. There is no reason to believe that they would be as miserable at their old teams now as they were pre-MLS. Even the few MLS field players who have gone overseas (Stern John, Ben Olsen, Brian McBride, Onandi Lowe, Junior Agogo, Giovanni Savarase, some of the Portuguese players etc) have acquitted/are acquitting themselves fairly well even though some of them were only squad players in MLS when they left. And please don't cite Lowe as an example of MLS only as being a 2nd or 3rd division quality: Rushden and Diamonds is a very ambitious club that has torn through the lower divisions and very well could be in first division by next year (if his recent injury is not too bad) and he has been one of the main reasons. He has been a goal machine on a completely different level than he was when in MLS.
From what I've read, the rules are all very vague ... so maybe you're right, but I'm not interested in getting into speculation. Yes, this is some indication of the level, although reserve forwards at big clubs have their numbers inflated because smaller clubs don't stockpile as much talent. And arguing specific examples is always a bit dubious. Stern John put up sensational numbers in MLS, and he hasn't done much at the Premiership level. Again, be careful with your facts ... didn't Simutenkov really come from Racing de Ferrol? And Rizo hadn't exactly been playing much in the Mexican First Division. In 2001, he made one appearance (19 minutes), and he hasn't appeared in a game since. In fact, in his whole career, he played 90 minutes three times.
Beineke - a substantial portion of his playing time has been in high-level First Division. Have you noticed his strike rate at that level? And make sure you check strike rate as well as total goals, because Forest sat Stern for a large part of his last season with them to avoid the appearance-based fees to MLS in his transfer agreement. Though he didn't light up the EPL, he is behind two top young Internationals (Morrison and Forssell) and a World Cup/European Champ winner in Dugarry. And he still chipped in 4 - 5 goals and assists in limited play last year. Besides, he isn't a spring chicken anymore and he has had some tough injuries. Look it up yourself Igor Simutenkov 2003 Kansas City Wizards 2002 Kansas City Wizards 2001/02 Tenerife 2000/2001 Tenerife 1998/1999 Bologna 1996/1997 Reggiana 1995/1996 Reggiana 1994/1995 Reggiana http://www.soccerage.com/en/04/00175.html And regarding Rizo (he played at Atlas, not Nexaca, sorry) - how much playing time has he gotten in MLS? 6 games (only 3 starts). If he is a squad player in Mexico, he is a squad player here (just like Daniel Hernandez). Great for a Mexico U17 U21-capped player to aspire to. I agree that anecdotal evidence can be less than convincing, but you have considerably upped the ante on this thread. First it was a denial that Eddie Lewis scored like some folks said he did. Than it was the "that was only against lower division reserve teams" excuse, etc. You still have not really laid it on the line - do you seriously think that Freddy Adu would be better off in the Youth/Reserve Team setup at a European club during his 15 - 18 or so years than he would be at an MLS club? Maybe once he hits 18 I will agree that it is time for him to move on, but I simply don't see what Reserve team play at the age of 15 is going to do for him, based on what I see happening with Jamie Milner or Richie Partridge or Jonathan Blondel or tons of other youth stars affiliated with Premiership teams. If he is playing (limited) first team in the EPL at the age of 16 okay, but that has its drawbacks as well. And if he is signed by an EPL team only to be loaned back to MLS, how exactly does that help him (developmentally) or US soccer? Not much. He will only be somewhat available for internationals, he will get to train and play low level youth matches, friendlies and reserve matches in England during the winter (when MLS is out of season), he will be separated from his family and culture for long stretches of time and he likely won't even make that much more money (unless he gets a huge signing bonus) than he would in MLS. After all, at his age he cannot sign professional forms so he is limited to a 3 year contract. How big a signing bonus is a team going to be willing to offer if all they will get is training compensation if he ups and moves after three seasons when his contract expires? And MLS would definitely lose out on the fan appeal and excitement that our first internationally acclaimed (LD and DMB were not universally acclaimed internationally the way FA has been) child prodigy is playing in our league? US Soccer would also lose out by not having him available to watch, monitor and support. I am not suggesting that there are not risks associated with playing in MLS (witness Eddie Johnson and Santino Quaranta stagnating), but neither of those players shows evidence of the mental strength and balance that Freddy brings to the table. I hope that DC United does a better job bringing its young players along, but I don't think they are hopeless either. If it was better for Freddy to be at another club for the sake of his development - so be it. But I just cannot conceive why sending Freddy to play reserve matches in England or to Europe in order to be loaned out to MLS or some other second-tier league is any better than having him start his career here. Do you have any proof or evidence suggesting that I am wrong in any of these opinions?
Let me guess. Could it be that there were other players who were better, could play more than one position, and could defend better?
Americans seem to have a tougher time gaining PT for a European first team when they move up through the ranks as opposed to playing in MLS first and transferring as a potential starter. JOB is the only player I can think of who has really gone through the youth ranks of a top team and become an important starting player in Europe. LD couldn't get a stiff of the first team in Germany when he was 18 but he could after the world cup and first team experience in mls. If I were Freddie, I would play a couple years in MLS and then go to Europe as a potential starter.
It is possible, but Fulham were very weak along the left side at the end of last season (esp post Rufus Brevett). I cannot remember who else came and went during the time period immediately before/after Eddie left Fulham, but I rather doubt there was anyone so far above Eddie in the pecking order that he didn't deserve at least a chance. For instance, I don't think that Inamoto played along the left side. Neither did Malbranque (much), Davis or Legwinski. Lewis played pretty well for Fulham when he played earlier (1st Div - Pre-Tigana and Premiership). Luis Boa Morte is good in that position, but he has often been injured. Pembridge didn't arrive until this year. I am not too familiar with Lee Clark. Plus, Tigana didn't ever get the very best out of his players and tended to play favorites. Witness his infatuation with Steve Marlet, which has become an on-going debacle for the club (even though Marlet has been loaned to Olympique Marsailles.
You know. This is really inane at this point. I understand that everyone in here is in a pissing contest matching the EPL against the MLS, and some fringe american players that have gone over to the EPL and tried to play. That's all fun for entertainment purposes, but the bottom line remains. The MLS is better than the english youth AND reserve squads. PERIOD! END OF STORY! With that being the case, Freddy would develop faster here under FAMILIAR surroundings than there, under UNFAMILIAR surrounding. As much as I would be an utter MORON to say that MLS is better than the EPL, anyone else who claims that English youth sides and reserve squads are better than MLS is just as big of a fool. It's getting tiresome to keep defending the American system that has come into place concerning soccer development in the last 10 years, ESPECIALLY from our brothers in England, when they have not done one iota better than the US in the last 3 WC's. Obviously, our own training can't be as vastly inferior to theirs as they would have us believe. Hell, when DC Uniteds youth team went on tour of Europe 2 months ago, they acquitted themselves well, and MANU's youth team director stated that he believed the US would win a WC before England. Hey ........... don't shoot the messenger. I'm just reporting the news.
This is precisely why I believe that the "goal a game" thing was just invented. Correct. All I did was step in to question whether a certain poster (not you) was providing accurate information. It's a stretch to describe him as a Primera Liga player. He signed with a second division team that was subsequently promoted (no thanks to Simutenkov) and apparently never played a Primera Liga match. Sure, he was more successful as a younger player, but he's 30 now. I have never made that argument.
Excuse me, but those 6 goals were in 2 consecutive games. If you think a player who scores back-to-back hat tricks isn't a prolific scorer at that level, I've got some beachfront property in New Mexico that you might be interested in. I'm trying to find anything on the web about his run of 7 goals in 3 games (against Premiership reserves, no less!) but it doesn't seem to be around. Ditto the period in which he scored in every reserve match for almost 2 months including a few two-goal games.
... so if he's a "prolific" scorer, that's the same as scoring a goal a game? Anyway, it all depends. In 2000-01, Jermaine Pennant scored a hat trick for Arsenal reserves. In his other ten appearances, he didn't tally a single goal. Furthermore, Lewis's scoring came against feeble opponents that a Premiership reserve would never face. There's no reason to think that Lewis scored much against the better reserve sides. After all, LivSC listed several games in which Lewis didn't score.
Thx for the correction; I couldn't find a reference that listed him as having played, which is why I said he apparently never played.
And in the year he was promoted, he played in 28 matches. He also scored 3 goals (according to the Championship Manager database - laugh if you like, but it seems to be fairly reliable in terms of raw number stats). He scored 3 - 6 goals in 10 - 20 games/year on average during his years in Seria A. Not too bad really.