An attacker on the left side runs on to a through ball coming from a teammate in midfield. In order to reach the ball, he will have to run 30 yards down field. Unfortunately, he mistimes his run, and is in an offside position by about two feet when the ball is played. A teammate also near the offside line but on the right side of the field shouts out “don’t play the ball, you were offside!”. The player follows the path of the ball until it comes to a complete stop. The player stops one foot from the ball but does not ever even pretend to kick it. Meanwhile, a defender comes over to clear the ball out, and kicks it into touch. Keep in mind that FIFA Circular 874 states: How should we interpret "interfering with play"? PLAYING OR TOUCHING a ball passed or touched by a team-mate. According to FIFA’s interpretation, when should the attacker be whistled for offside?
Please don't forget to vote in this poll as well as the other poll. They are NOT the same poll! Thanks.
Is this open to international opinions? I know what is being instructed in the US (or appears to be from all the posts from US referees on offside that I have seen) and this differs from what is instructed down here in New Zealand. If you follow the letter of the law with circular 874 you get yet another answer. Which one do you want? Crowdie
Paul, as soon as the attacker in the offside position made a play by running to the ball the flag should come up. He was in an offside position and was gaining an advantage even if 30 yards away. Just because he did not touch the ball does not mean he did not gain an advantage from his offside position at the time the ball was initially played by a teammate.
Disagree. If he's 30 yards away from the ball when he makes his initial run, the flag stays down until it's apparent he's able to influence play. In a recent question on the USSF site, Jim Allen stated that "gains an advantage" only applies to rebounded shots on goal. We need to evaluate whether a player in offside position actually becomes involved in play. He's not when he's 30 yards from the ball.
And what if the defense was playing an offside trap near the halfway line and the player runs onto this through ball in say 3-4 seconds. Entirely possssible with older youth and adults. Now he has the keeper either holding his position or coming out to try and make a play. He clearly gained an advantage. I assume from Paul's scenario the ball is being played in this players general direction and that the ball lands 20-30 yards towards the other goal.
If we are doing as instructed, this poll should yield the same results as the previous poll. I'm calling offside as I understand our instructions. Why would you want to do something else?
The AR would, nevertheless, hold thier flag until the involvement was clear. What the keeper did or did not do is irrelevant. Sherman
The difference between the two polls is that in this one, you have to pay attention to the current law and current interpretations of the law. In the other poll you are free to make up your own law concerning offside--the only requirement is that you have some sort of offside law--and then tell us how you would apply it in this situation. Of course, you don't actually have to determine what your actual law would be--only how it would be interpreted in this case. But how much of an advantage is he gaining if he is not allowed to play the ball? And jkc313 is right. In this situation, the player is not considered by FIFA to be "gaining an advantage", oddly enough, even if he does play the ball. Yes.
Sherman, I noted the keeper not because he has any bearing on the AR's decision, but to illustrate how the players involvement in play in this scenario lead to a goal scoring opportunity.
But, Alberto, unless the AR is asleep at the switch, until offside is reset, the player in the offside position is no threat, will be flagged for offside if they become involved in play, so it can't lead to anything - thus no advantage. Sherman
In your and my world this player would be flagged when he turned and made a run at the ball. That is how we were instructed to apply the LOTG, but to Paul's eyes there is no involvement because the player is so far away from the ball. My retort to him was to show how his interpretation could lead to difficulties given the speed of todays players.
What if halfway to the ball his teammate, who was onside, passes him and gets to the ball first? What if it looks like the offside attacker will get to the ball first, but he stops 10 yards from the ball and lets his onside teammate get the ball? What if he stops 2 feet from the ball? Should you flag the player in any of these cases, and if so, when?
You might notice that the polls are giving different results, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT THE SAME POLL. One poll is based on how the rule is currently supposed to be interpreted. If not everyone gives the same answer, then either FIFA has some work cut out for it, or has to acknowledge that its perfectly acceptable for different FAs to interpret the same rule differently, or the people who answer "incorrectly" have to get up to speed. In the other poll, you should ignore all that, and simply answer the question in the way you would prefer to see an offside rule enforced--not the current offside rule--but an offside rule you would design. Of course, if you think the current rule is perfectly written and is perfectly interpreted, and many people do, your response to both polls would be the same. But... THEY DON'T HAVE TO BE THE SAME ANSWER. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE GIVING DIFFERENT RESULTS.
Because Paul cannot even on a second attempt phrase the question correctly as to what constitutes offside. I am completely serious, I do not say this in jest.
Chris, when the player in the offside position makes a run at the ball, at that instant the flag immediately goes up. It has nothing to do with kicking or heading the ball. It's about active involvement in play. If he stood still and did not make a run while in the offside position, the flag should stay down. If he waits and no one from his team runs to play the ball and then he turns say three to four seconds later you could flag for offside if in your opinion his run would still gain him an advantage. It could be even longer, but by that time most defenders would have gained possesion of the ball therefore, raising your flag would be not necessary and would impede the flow of the game.
If he gets to the ball in 3-4 seconds then the flag should go up. This is different than simply going towards a ball 30 yards away.
Poll Results, May 4, 2004: According to FIFA’s interpretation, when should the attacker be whistled for offside? (THIS POLL) 1) [_3] As soon as the ball is kicked. 2) [_1] When he gets within 10 yards of the ball. 3) [13] When he gets within playing distance of the ball. 4) [_4] When he actually touches the ball. 21 Votes If it was up to you, when should offside be called? 1) [12] As soon as the ball is kicked. 2) [_3] When he gets within 10 yards of the ball. 3) [11] When he gets within playing distance of the ball. 4) [_5] When he actually touches the ball. 31 Votes
PVancouver sounds like he is not a referee. As a referee, you are trained to look at each situation as it occurs, because each situation may be different. Even the situation you quote may have different permutations. For instance, you have not stated the positioning or actions of the keeper at the inception of this play, and here's how even that parameter may affect play: If the keeper is at the top of the PA awaiting the ball or even coming out of the PA to dribble it back into the PA where he can legally handle it, I'm not raising the flag unless the offside infraction occurred at or near the halfway line, since I'd rather have the keeper with ball in hand than an IFK, and the closer to the goal line the infraction is, the more likely I am to take that position. Why would I want to award (?) an IFK at the top of the goal area when the keeper could pick the ball up and carry it in his hands another 12 yards, and then put it in play however he deems best? In this situation you may very well be disadvantaging the defending team. When you are a referee (and learning this is part of becoming a good referee), you learn to assess the situation on the fly, with the flow of the game, and allow play to continue to the point where you feel the team who would be awarded the restart becomes disadvantaged if you let play continue, unless you feel that whatever foul or infraction that took place was severe enough to warrant a stoppage to deal with the issue. This type of situation is most often used for fouls that are considered "over the top" in the force that was used, or if you feel you need to utilize the foul to exercise some match control, e.g. issue a caution for PI, or a stern warning to a player whose behavior has been escalating in a direction you don't feel comfortable with. The LOTG has been written with enough leeway in it to allow us to make these decisions within the context of the game we are refereeing. The best advice I've ever heard from anyone dicussing the way to best officiate a match was from Bob Evans, who told me that the referee has 2 purposes on the pitch: 1. Protect the players 2. Let the players play Ever since I took that bit of wisdom onto the pitch with me, I've found that the players will let you know what they're comfortable with as far as physicality of play very early in the match. when a player makes a comment after being involved in a challenge, sure, he may just be griping because he was dispossessed, but if you're hearing it more than once, or from more than one player, you may want to look at repositioning yourself, because you are most likely missing something!
I did not mention the goalkeeper. You can assume that the goalkeeper either believed he could not reach the ball first or he believed an attempt to reach the ball was "unsafe". At any rate, he chose not to go after the ball. You can assume that at all times the offside player could reach and play the ball first if he so chose. The only reason a defender reaches it is because the offside player allows him to. You are implying the offside player is "guilty" immediately, and the question of blowing the play dead or not is dependent entirely on whether an advantage situation continues or not. My scenario was meant to imply that no advantage is ever anticipated or realized by the defending team. However, I also imply that the defending team was not necessarily disadvantaged. This wasn't meant to start a discussion on advantage and when it should be applied. The focus is when has a player in an offside position actually committed the infraction of offside.
It is not a distance thing directly. You flag an offside player offside when you feel he/she has influenced the game from the offside position (become involved in active play). Crowdie
Paul: Are you a referee? I don't think you have answered this anywhere. It is my hunch from your posts that you are not, but I'm quite happy to be corrected.
The premise of offside is judged at the moment the ball is last played or touched by an attacker. That is when the offside has occurred.