[I've got my coach's hat on now] OK...I've seem to have been spending much too much time coaching and I haven't kept up with some of the recent rule changes. Here's a situation that came up in a game I just coached. -Did the referee do the right thing? -How would you have handled it as a referee? -How would you have handled it a a coach? Boys U19 Division 1 competitive match between the only 2 undefeated teams in the league. Red (my team) just won a corner kick in added time of the 2nd half with a 1-nil lead. There was only 7 yards between the edge of the penalty area and the touch line (I walk them off every field we play on). Two white player were tanding outside their penalty area near the position of the corner flag. The player taking the corner asked the referee to push the players back the full 10 yards. Referee said "NO...kick the ball". Player once again asked for the 10-yards. Referee blew the whistle and ordered a goal kick. I've only reffed hundreds of games and I've never come across this. I yelled out "HEY! You can't change a restart. It's still a corner!!" He said "Shut up coach" (stole one of my best lines). I yelled to the ref and the other coach that we were continuing under protest. 2 1/2 minutes were added (even though none were added in the first half when we were attacking goal). Finally the whistle blew so the protest was moot. Can a referee now do this? Can a referee refuse to give 10 yards to a restart if the kicker wants it? What would you do as a coach? as a player? [coach's hat off now] Scott
Scott, time ti write a letter to the state and since you are a Referee, one to your SDA. This guy has no right nor authority to change the restart. The Laws of the Game still apply and all opponents must retire the minimum of 10 yards. the Referee is still the only one to judge whether or not the opponents are in fact 10 yards for the spot. Some obviously have poor judgement. If you lost this game it would be grounds for a protest that you most likely would win. The is not a judgement mistake, it is a mistake of the Laws. You can't change the retart for the reason he used. Only if he chanegd his mind about which team touched the ball last before it crossed the goal line. Doesn't seem like this is his reason.
WB is correct as far as the rulings are concerned. I'm a little lazy as far as letter writing. I would first call the assignor. If you don't know, I would ask the other coach or the referee himself.
The league that we compete in have this crazy policy that each individual town assigns all referees for their home matches. Creates some interesting perceptions for the visiting coaches when situations like the one I had tonight come up! I'm probably going to write a letter. I tried to talk to the referee after the match to tell him where he went astray...he just told me to get off the field. SHERMAN...CALL ME!!! Scott
Go directly to the state SDA and maybe even the SDI. On top of the stuff happening during the game, his attitude is not what the National program needs or wants. This is what give the rest of us who care a bad name.
Just like a "foul" is what the ref calls a foul, "10 yards" is what the ref decides that distance is. Even if it's obviously too short. You can't quibble about that, you just live with it. The ref had other options. He could have decided that your player was either dissenting his opinion on distance, or was delaying the restart. So a yellow card could be shown. As previously mentioned, that doesn't change the restart. Even if the individual towns assign referees to their own home games, there's someone who is doing that assigning job. At u19 one would expect a "better quality" ref to be assigned. It would be appropriate to try to find that assignor and make your objections known. (And you may find out that this was a "warm body". No one else was available, and the assignor felt that someone who usually does u12 games was better than no one at all.) If going to the assignor gets you nowhere, go the route through the state ref association. Do you have a SRA or SDRI for Youth? Your own assignor should know who to contact.
As a coach, you can write the letter. As a player, you can ask for 10 yards. If the ref says 'you've got it' or 'no', you kick the ball or risk a caution for dissent or delay of game (or some other non-authorized action ).
You'd certainly expect more from a referee doing a game of that quality. You should certainly write a letter. I know as a referee that I should not berate the referee for such a decision. It's clearly a decision that has no basis in the laws though, so it would be hard not to express some level of outrage. In every league that I act as a referee this would make a game worthy of protest. You're lucky the game still went your way.
That's funny, the same thing happened in a very competitive U-16 D1 youth game I was coaching--my team asked for 10 yards, ref called delay of game, cautioned the corner kick taker (which is a legit decision)... and gave a free kick to the defending team near the spot of the corner kick for delay of game. I let it slide after a little protest because I have seen so much poor reffereeing that I didn't see the point in bringing it up and I didn't want my kids focusing on the official. Let me bring up another scenario that happened to my team, also a clear mis-application of the rules: there is a clean tackle in the box, offensive player falls down, defensive player passes the ball to a teammate outside of the box, then steps on the player he had just tackled. Ref sees it, cautions the defender for kicking his opponent... and orders an IFK at the spot of the kick. Game was tied 1-1 at the time, we went on to score 3 more goals, so the decision didn't affect the outcome. I asked the ref after the game to ask a more senior official what he should have done (I didn't think he would accept the proper call from me), he approached me the next week and said... he should have waited until the ball went out of play, then cautioned the player for kicking his opponent. If the game had ended 1-1, is that decision grounds for an appeal? What might the remedy be? But given these (and other) experiences, I expect youth refs to mis-apply the laws.
Gorilla, he must have asked Scott's ref. Good point about not getting the kids focused on the ref. The ref is the one with the whistle, he made the call, you all have to live with, get on with the game. Is it something about 10 yards in Massachusetts?
Based on what you said: *The ball was in play *a penal foul was commited against the attacking team *inside the box Penalty kick! I'd have protested that and chewed the ref's ear off , but then again, I'm a pain in the buttocks when I coach! Massachusetts...for a state that has a reputation for having some of the better referees...well, I won't get into that now. Scott
Actually, the missed PK call I mentioned before happened in CT. I complained pretty loudly about that one. I hate giving refs a hard time because they get so much illegitimate grief from everyone, but that was ridiculous. Could someone answer the question, though? Given the situation: clearly mis-applied rules that denied a PK, is there grounds for an appeal if the result is affected? What might happen? Does it depend on the league?
Anything that does not have to do with the Referees judgement and is based on facts and the Laws can be appealed and stand a good chance of winning. The game would most likely be ordered replayed and yes it is most likely up to each local ruling body but could be appealed all the way to Chicago if you have the time.
Within LOTG! This decision IS within LOTG! You saw a kicking foul and misconduct. Perhaps the referee saw this also. It is within his discretionary powers to decide that the foul was trifling, but the misconduct was not trifling. Then an IFK should go to the attacking (victim) team at the point of infringement. You might not agree with his decision, but it is within LOTG. This "better advice" can be within LOTG only if the attacking team had an advantage, but the defending team had possession of the ball and was on counterattack. Is this an advantage to the attacking team? If not, the "better advice" is outside LOTG.
Re: Within LOTG! I'm having a hard time buying this one. Are you saying that the referee is claiming that the action of kicking an opponent was BOTH a foul and a misconduct at the same time??? No way. Referee witnessed the defender step on his opponent. PENAL FOUL. PERIOD!The confusion in this scenario was that he didn't know even though the ball is not in the PA that a PA can still occur. The referee clearly recognized the foul, screwed up the restart! Scott
Re: Within LOTG! I don't know what the referee claimed. However, kicking an opponent is a foul. Doing it recklessly is USB. Bringing the match into disrepute is USB. It is within the power of the referee to decide to punish the foul only, to punish the misconduct only, to punish both or to ignore both. Whatever is ignored was "trifling," having little effect on the match. I have no idea what reasoning he actually used. I have said that punishing only the misconduct leads to a caution and an IFK. Such a decision is within LOTG, however good/bad the judgment may have been.
Re: Within LOTG! This may technically qualify, but the logic is suspect. How is the ref going to write his report? A caution for USB (or whatever he decides it is). Then he describes what was unsporting - the player kicked - deliberately stepped on - his opponent. So the ref is saying it was a kick that was misconduct, but it wasn't a kick that was a foul. Hmmm ...
Remember what the LOTG say about appeals: (that was fun ) Leagues and Tournaments usually have appeal processes. Around here they usually include a substantial filing fee, which if your appeal is lost you forfeit (or you forfeit anyway). I have never been involved in a successful appeal, but then none of the games I've been involved are important enough to deal with the appeals process. When games become important (state cup, high school playoffs, etc.), usually the best referees are assigned where they don't mess up the basic laws of the game. Subjective referee decisions though controversial seldom get overruled.
Scott, Massachusetts has a reputation for having some of the better refs at the 'higher' levels. For the size and population of the state, I'd put our youth referees up against the top from other states at regionals (I'd also assert that many of our State Cup referees that don't go to regionals are better than many I've seen at regionals from other states), and I'd put our pro referees up against the best from around the country (though, sadly, some recent performances have been under par). With that said, our state, like any other state, has its fair share of subpar referees at the lower adult and youth levels (don't even start with high school). A U19 match is certainly 'high level' within BAYS, but, statewide, when the top referees are doing pro, amateur, and MAPLE, it's very hard to ensure that above average referees are doing older youth town matches. I played many games in this state that were poorly officiated, and it's unfortunate that many of those referees hang around and get assigned important matches. I guarantee, however, that assignors will say they need the numbers. It's just a fact that not every single game can be covered by what we would accept as a 'quality referee'. In this particular case, I think you have three arguments, two of which are valid. First, his attitude towards you in general. To me, that is more telling of his true character as a referee than the second point, which is a gross misapplication of the law. The third point, that of only giving 7 yards instead of 10, is moot. As someone said earlier, that's in his opinion. I believe you when you said he is completely wrong, but, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't matter. If you write a letter or make a phone call, stress his attitude towards you and his misapplication of the law. So you're intentionally trying to bait me, huh?
i'd've been taken out long ago...along with most of the referees in our area. the Southeast is a little too hot and humid to be wearing long sleeves...just about ever.
Re: Re: AAARRrrrrggggg!!! So is central MA in June and August. The fields at U-Mass Amherst sit in sort of a valley which traps heat, and one set is located adjacent to the campus waste treatment plant. You not only need great stamina to be successful in Massachusetts, but a strong stomach as well. Insanity helps, too. Advancement in Massachusetts is sort of like an episode of "Fear Factor". A lot of referees take that walk of shame but those who survive, while maybe not the brightest bulbs on the tree, are certainly some of the toughest (ie. take a licking and keep on ticking).