I was going to post in another thread, but it morphed into something a bit OT, and worthy of a thread all it's own (I know it's not the first )... So, I've been thinking that as far as the challenges we'll be facing in the World Cup itself, I am not sold on our depth on the back line (at this point). I know we'll have plenty of time to cement the lineup, and build chemistry amongst them (in fact I've found myself reminding others of that very point). This is intended more in the way of a general critique of current form, to get the ball rolling...and I'd encourage others to add more detail in their responses... Additionally, I'm only going to comment on the guys I actually rate at all... But feel free to throw any name you like into the discussion... Just add some honesty as well. I'm not Bruce Arena, and lobbying for your guy won't affect his future here... OK: Personally, I'm not all that impressed by any of our defender's corps... Excepting Gooch, who I'll not comment on here. Yet.... (And that's based on more than just the Mexico game, btw) Eddie Pope~ Well, RSL hasn't been too kind to him. I think he's actually starting to feel old there. I still think he's a first time lock for 'The Hall', and possibly even our best defender of all time, at least worthy of inclusion in the discussion with no question, but.... Cory Gibbs~ Yes, he had a great game against RVN... But what else, really? Some would apply that same statement to Gooch, I know. But IMO, Gooch has been building towards that performance, whereas Gibbs has, even while playing well in general, shown no actual progression in his performances... So, overall, I'll accept that he hasn't been given an actual contiguous stretch of games to show that to me (for acceptable reasons)... Carlos Bocanegra~ *sigh* I'm a Fire fan, and a Boca fan by extension, but it seems to me his semi-forced run outs at left back have taken the sheen of confidence off his game (even at CB)... I know a lot of people seem to naturally include him in their "locks" pool, naturally assume he'll play LB, and automatically assign the 3rd CB position to him as well, but it seems to me like that's somehow become a blind spot for many... I mean, actively try to remember any impact he's made in a US game recently... I have lost exactly as much confidence in him as I feel he's lost in himself... Greg Berhalter~ Actually, I think Greg gets more grief than he deserves here on BS. He's a very physical presence in the middle, and even though he put in a fantastic performance against Mexico, he didn't get his fair share of the praise IMO. Some might complain he's too slow of thought or foot, which I discount. Some might say his temper is his enemy, and that I would agree with. I think his biggest problem has always been the 'big' mistake, the brain fart in the middle of an otherwise acceptable game that inevitably leads to a goal surrendered... Eliminate those, and you'd have a guy I would actually feel pretty comfortable with, especially on a 3 man backline... Steve Cherundolo~ All the obvious and overly talked about things (good service, attacks well, credible defender, experienced, etc...). Again, I discount the 'too small/too slow' argument. I actually think Steve is the very obvious #1 RB, just like most I assume. In the big picture, there really aren't too many great right backs in the world. Just by being a 'good' RB, Steve feels comfortable for us. But, what I ultimately want is Marvell Wynne to figure out soccer . No hard knock on Stevie, but he's an average defender, and an average attacker (in the big picture)...just from the RB position. Frankie Hejduk~ Frankie's saving grace, IMO, isn't his 'workrate', it's the fact that (again) there aren't too many teams in the world with enough technical ability to afford someone on the flanks with the pure skill to beat his pure aggression. OTOH, if Freddy Adu can make you look like a chump, maybe, I dunno, Arjen Robben can too... I like aggressive players, and I like the fact that he's versatile enough (or ambiguous enough) to play on the left as well... All the other Frankie-stereotypes apply as well: Fast, hard, makes stupid mistakes, sucks offensively, works hard all game long, 'shows up'... Eddie Lewis~ Quite a bit ago, I told someone "I want one of our most talented field players to play left back (JOB), because we have an absolute glut of quality left sided mids..." That has become Eddie Lewis. I don't know how the trot-outs at LB will progress, but I'm optimistic. I think he's one of the easiest guys in our entire lineup to peg into a hole offensively, but I, and none of you, are quite sure about the hard defensive end of his game... He has always had the right 'edge' on his game, so like I said, I'm optimistic that it will translate... Now, those are just a few guys, I know. I am not going to go through the entire pool obviously. Those are just the 'lock' type starting guys, to get the thread started. I've left out such obvious candidates as Jimmy Conrad, Jonathan Spector, Eddie Robinson, Chris Albright, Jose Burciaga Jr, LaVolpe's grandma, someone else I obviously missed, and whoever you like too... Add them if you wish, just please do so with a bit of circumspection... And, again, I haven't gone into much detail (to save space), but I encourage you to.
He's on the outside looking in, but played better than expected in Gold Cup. Arguably the best player on the field against England, making it the second MOTM against a top Euro side. Plays on a very good side in a very good league. Hopefully he'll be well soon. I agree that Carlos is not a lock,but probably a "likely." But his insertion into the Fulham backline lately has shored up their defense somewhat. Hopefully his return to the middle will help his confidence. This is a guy who could end up a starter or off the roster. But it's nice to think that an EPL'er could be a fringe guy for us. Shows our progress. Like the guy, and Arena likes his organization skills. On the short list of best players this year.No reason for nerves here. We'll see about Frankie, but he's a big game guy. I Join your optimisim. Don't know why is a worry.We have not given up a goal in WCQ since when?
I do recall him scoring the first goal against Panama in the June 8th qualifier, and I believe it was him who flicked the ball on goal against England which Dempsey then scored. So he has had at least some impact in recent games.
I agree with the thread starter on almost everything, except Cory Gibbs. I think he's been solid for us, and the fact that Feyenoord picked him up (but not Dempsey) speaks for itself. We don't have a defender who's a starter for a bigger club than Feyenoord.
I agree with the thread starter too. US is OK with the starting 4 and may get a 5th quality performer, if Jonathan Spector pans out (and btw, I think one has to infer that he is panning out, what with him getting time with the currently 2nd best club in the EPL), which is very important because he can play all 4 defensive positions. Otherwise, you'd be dreading every yellow card that your defensive players get in the WC because there's a big drop off in their back-ups.
That is my 'fear' as well... I currently believe that we have the personnel required to switch between everything from a 3-man defensive line with attacking wings in the midfield '5', to a solid 4-man defensive backline... However, I don't feel 100% with any of those percieved lineups... There are holes. No matter who you put in there, there isn't a fully 2-way back line. AAt least anything I feel comfortable transitioning with... Just saying. Agaqin... How do you feel we (our player pool) stack up with/against the "average World Cup team"...? I think.....average....with the potential to be great...but still just average.
It seems to me that there are (at least) three different types of CBs... the organizer, the man-marker, and the "libero". (By "libero", I mean a CB that plays almost like a deep-playing destroyer (DM) and feels comfortable pushing the ball forward.) Traditionally, Da Bruce has used a CB pairing of an organizer (Agoos, Berhalter, Conrad), with a man-marker (Pope, Gibbs, Boca), and a (at least theoretically) pairing of outside backs that are able to push forward. "Organizing" CB: Berhalter, Conrad "Man-marking" CB: Gibbs, Boca, Pope "Man-marking Libero" CB: Gooch "Attacking" RB: Dolo, Spector "Tactical" RB: Hedjuk, Albright "Attacking" LB: Lewis, Spector "Tactical" LB: Boca, Hedjuk The "problem" that I forsee is that the "organizing" CB role is the most important in Da Bruce's system. And, perhaps, playing the best "organizing" CB (Berhalter) alongside Gooch in place of a healthy and in-form player like Gibbs is a bit cynical. As much as a line-up of: Dolo-----------------Gibbs------------------Lewis --------------------Gooch--------------------------- excites me, I don't have complete faith that (in a handful of remaining qualifiers and friendlies) Lewis will rise to Dolo's level to create a two-pronged offensive outside back attack that would make a midfield box (or diamond) very effective. I expect to continue to see, an uneven line-up (from defense to forward), using more organizing or tactical players (Berhalter, Hedjuk) in place of more skilled or better all-around players (Gibbs). I'd guess the gameplan is: 1. Figure out who works best in the middle with Gooch. 2. Assume that Dolo will push forward and be very involved as the RB. 3. Attacking LB (Lewis) or safe LB (Boca, Hedjuk)?
time flies so fast, i feel as if it wasn't long ago when edie pope was named as the new young talented defender, now he is an old man.
The original post is on point for Pope, Berhalter, Hejduk, and hopefully Lewis but I think you missed the mark on Gibbs, Bocanegra, and Cherundolo. Most of this is just much to do about nothing, I don't see the concerns, outside of locking down a leftback. Eddie Pope~ Even the greatest players succumb to age at some point, we are only human. Pope was our best defender, a sure thing, but those days are over. I doubt he has the physical ability to win a spot on the 2006 roster. His only hope is as the 4th centerback but I don't see him doing it. "it's a young man's game" BA. Cory Gibbs~ I think Saeyddthe is probably suffering from a case of "Big Soccer short term memory" (BSSTM) since Cory has been out injured for almost 4 months and Gooch is FOTM. Gibbs has shown a lot of actual progression in his performances. He's become a very good centerback with consistent, solid play and two outstanding performances against Holland and England. Sure Gooch is the Flav of the month but don't forget just how good Cory really is. Carlos Bocanegra~ as a left back, I'm concerned that he isn't good enough against World Cup competition, but I don't believe the criticism is warranted at centerback. You need to differentiate the two positions. I'd say another case of BSSTM. He played very well last June against CR and Panama. Those are the only two caps he's had at centerback in the last year. Not sure what else he needs to do. Greg Berhalter~ I agree with your analysis but I'm also concerned about his physical limitations. He was beaten pretty easily against TnT and had to make a desperate tackle to save himself. He was beat for position and his lack of speed didn't help. At best he's only a 4th centerback. Steve Cherundolo~ is one of the best players on the team, not just the best rightback. You say you "discount the 'too small/too slow' argument" but I don't believe it, why else would you even bring up Wynne? I think your expectations are unrealistic.
I agree with your views on Steve. I think Cherundolo has greatly improved his defensive game in the past two years. His ability to come forward from a defensive position has always been a plus, but he is shutting his side down at this point, and allowing the CB time to get into position, facing forward, squared on the player. He's quite a well-rounded player and playing at a high-level. I kind of agree with you about Bocanegra, but his ability to at least play some LB if needed is a plus. What he still has to do is convince Arena that he's the center partner for Onyewu over Gibbs. Regardless, I think he's going to play in Germany in the center as part of a 3-man rotation, but how those minutes are divided is yet to be determined. I disagree with you about Berhalter. I think he's putting his stamp on the fourth CB position over Pope and Conrad. The tackle on Jones in the T&T game was Berhalter chasing down a speedy player who had been sprung...not covering for his blown coverage. It was a risky tackle, but he showed speed and positioning in that game. He followed that up with stellar play against Mexico, and concerns over his being sort of a plodding center-back were addressed. Most important, over the last two games, he's shown that veteran, coach-on-the-field ability that has greatly helped Lewis in his adjustment to a new position, and kept the defense organized. I also think he's a fourth CB, but not because of the concerns you mention. I think he's winning that slot with his play and leadership in back.........
I think the key is whether arena goes 3-5-2 or 4-4-2... with 3 in the back I could see gibbs/onyewu/bocanegra... in 4-4-2 I do like the central pairing of gibbs and onyewu... for arguments sake lets say cherundolo and lewis are the outside backs... arena needs to test this against an elite side in germany... go with those 4 in the german friendly and see if it works... if NOT, the a more defensive outside back could easily enter the equation.. personally I see bocanegra as the 3rd center back, over berhalter, conrad or marshall... hejduk at back-up for either outside back, just as a defensive presence... and we might see another test of convey at left back....
More importantly, how does this line of defense stack up against an average WC competitor's forward line? (I have a hunch this notion will be revisited after the draw) I say that better in the middle than on flanks and with very little depth available. Top four ('Dolo, Gooch, Gibbs, Lewis ... maybe five, with Spector) US defenders have decent pedigrees. Bocanegra has to prove that he still got it (or regained it) with Fulham. Berhalter has to prove that he is not losing it. Spector would probably be the top back up in all 4 positions, as I think Bruce will not play him in deep midfield. Pope probably makes it by default (over Conrad and Marshall) but is no better than the 18th on the roster. A 2,005 U-20 young'un is not likely to make an appearance.
I agree players do have to continually prove their abilities and Carlos is no exception, but it's inaccurate for people to take his leftback play and translate that into critiquing his centerback play. The bold part of your statement is incorrect. Berhalter had position on the TnT player (Jones), he had the angle and Jones had slowed down. Jones made a move to the outside and Berhalter was beaten. Berhalter was not "chasing down a speedy player who had been sprung" he was beaten on a nice move and lost a player he had contained. It's clear on tape. I agree that Berhalter is putting his stamp on the fourth CB position over Pope and Conrad, he's a good leader, but I still think he suffers from some physical limitations.
Interesting thread, but if we're afraid of the depth of our backline (!?), then we most certainly are afraid of our depth in the midfield. This country has created decent fullbacks, goalies and some forwards, but only two central middies of note that can direct a game, and one is getting old and the other is too fragile.
Agreed that Gooch is FOTM, but I saw the US-England friendly in person, and Gibbs absolutely did not have an "outstanding" performance v. England. His was a solid match, in that his man never beat him for a goal, but not outstanding, in that his man beat him like a drum for the majority of balls played via route one.
Agreed....evaluating Carlos just on his play at LB is a limited view. Whether he's ahead of Gibbs is a bit of an unknown, but a damn nice problem to have. As for Berhalter and that tackle...saw it in person and just watched it again to ensure that my memory is correct. We see that play quite differently.....you see it as an indication of Berhalter's physical limitations, while I see it as resolving those concerns. I see Jones get past Gooch as he is coming in between the two Americans on a nice through ball (let's also notice that the midfielder has both Armas and Albright behind him when the pass is made). Classic situation - 3-man race to the ball. Only Gregg is able to chase him down with speed and the angle. My only concern was the riskiness of the tackle. If everyone agreed, BS wouldn't be what it is, but I just see that play very differently.......
We are just splitting hairs over one tackle so I don't think we are too far off from each other's position. In my book, Berhalter is currently ahead of Pope, Conrad, and Marshall for that 4th centerback spot. I Don't know who will win out come May. Centerback is the least of my concerns for this team.
I'm sure that seeing the game in person gave you a different view than watching it on TV, so I can't really comment on your perspective. I still have to rate that as an outstanding performance considering the complete lack of help he had from the players around him, Pope, Vanney, and Zavagnin.
I'd be shocked if we didn't take at least one CB with World Cup experience. I think you've got the competition right, and in the right order..... Fun stuff, and I'm watching the rest of the T&T game with dinner, so I owe you a thanks for making me get the DVD out......
Khan's right on this one. It was Gibbs who let Johnson get past him, forcing Pope to cover and foul. That led to the first Richardson goal. Eddie was giving it to Gibbs, and you could see Cory's reaction was one of understanding his mistake....... I was there in-person for that game as well, but if you want to encourage me to watch it again on DVD, it'd be much appreciated.....
I could be wrong but I don't remember it that way, but unfortunately I don't think I have that one on tape. I'll encourage you and take your word for your findings because I trust your judgement. I was at a pub for that match so I'm not going to stand by my recollections
Nice progression of discussion in this thread. It's a nice change of pace from the usual BS... Re: Bocanegra... I wasn't lumping his play at different positions together. I was just saying that when he had to move to LB, he seemed to lose a bit of confidence on the field. Or maybe some confusion crept in... And he doesn't seem to have entirely shaken that, even when moved back to the middle. Just a matter of confidence, and lack of hesitation in his mind...IMO Re: Gibbs... I know he was injured, and was attempting to allow for that when I added that he hadn't had a "contiguous stretch of games..."
I'll pull out the game just to be sure.....here goes. As soon as Pope fouled Johnson, he starts jawing at Gibbs and pointing out to the spot where Gibbs should've turned him outside, not in. Gibbs looks out at the spot, and gives one of those resigned looks saying "yeah, you're right....crap." You can tell the US isn't used to playing a team with such pace. Eddie may be past his prime, but mentally, he still knows what Gibbs should've done. Johnson does a nice job of drawing the foul as Pope comes over his back. Smart play by the Crystal Palace striker....beautiful kick by Richardson...1-0 to England. Gibbs got feisty later, which the team needed, but an early mistake exposed the aging Pope, who looked "aging" in this game. It was the game against Guatemala, where we paired Gooch and Gibbs in the middle, where I felt like Cory might just be a starter next summer. That was, I'd argue, his best performance for the USMNT to date....
Thanks for the call. I still think it was an unnecessary foul by Pope but you can make the call on that, my analysis tends to suffer when pints are involved. Back to "A stark appraisal of our defense", I'm curious to hear people's comments on Albright, Conrad, and Marshall. We could throw Spector in here too but he does have his own thread. Albright~ is better offensively than Hejduk but susceptible to the occasional brain fart. He has decent speed but I'm not sold on his defending. Hejduk wins the backup rightback spot in my book. Conrad~ looks slow, plays to his abilities but he is no better than 5th or 6th in the centerback depth chart. Marshall~ is a young, strong, smart CB but I haven't seen enough of him to make more of a judgement. I do think he's too inexperienced to make the 06 team.