A Pro/Rel Idea but dont enter if you are anti- pro/rel

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by Philly33, Sep 16, 2009.

  1. Philly33

    Philly33 New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    This proposal is obviously hypthetical. But with the TOA in talks with MLS it is a possibility that the TOA teams want to be a part of MLS. If this scenario comes true i have a plan for pro/rel. :

    Season of 2010, the 8 or so teams from the TOA form MLS 2 (or MLS Championship or the best name) and play the full 2010 season as well as the 2011 without pro/rel, basically just like the USL season. The reason for this is that Portland and Vancouver will be moving up for the 2011 season so MLS wont want to make major changes(ie pro/rel) during that season and MLS want the two teams to have a chance to get acclimated to the league and focus the leagues attention on getting Portland and Vancouver situated. Also this two year period will help the teams meet MLS guidelines for sal cap, player rules, etc.

    The season of 2012 will be the first season that will count for teams to be promoted for the following year. The top finisher in overall points automatically is promoted as well as the winner of a 3 team tournament (teams 3 and 4 in overall points play against each other with the winner facing team 2 for the 2nd promotion spot). These two promoted teams take MLS slots 19 and 20 giving MLS a 20 team league, the number Garber capped it at.

    For the Season of 2013 the system gets a little tricky. For the time being, in this system, no MLS teams can get relegated. I am proposing this because i dont think its fair for MLS teams to get relegated now especially because the salary cap doesnt give well-run clubs any advantage and vice versa. So essentially the promotion/relegation is for spots 19 and 20 in MLS amongst the MLS 2 teams. So for the two teams promoted into MLS they play the regular MLS schedule. The rules for relegation are as follows:

    -one of the two teams is always relegated(the one with lesser points)
    -if a team finishes in the top half of the MLS table it is automatically guaranteed to stay in MLS(if both teams are in the top half only the team with higher points stays)
    if both teams finish in the lower half of the MLS table the team with the lower points is automatically relegated, while the top finisher in MLS 2 takes its place. The other MLS team will play a two leg playoff against the number 2 mls 2 team for the MLS spot.

    From seasons 2013 to around 2021 this system would be in place. By this point the MLS salary cap fill be either gone or high enough for disparity so that the top clubs will have a clear advantage and clubs like seattle wont be in jeopardy of relegation.
    For the 2021 season MLS season will implement a full pro/rel of whatever fits best for the situation.
    By this time i predict MLS 2 will have grown to about 16 teams, making for a very stable division 2 when pro/rel comes around.

    Obviously there are some small things that you if changed would make it better so feel fee to suggest it. I will try to come up with examples by season and post them as i do them.
     
  2. ChefJim27

    ChefJim27 Member

    Feb 9, 2008
  3. BringSoccerToIndy

    May 24, 2008
    1001 West New York Street, Indianapolis, IN
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Are you serious? A salary cap gives well-run teams an advantage. No salary cap gives rich teams an advantage. There's a reason why the Red Bulls are awful and Houston and Columbus are the two best teams in the league.
     
  4. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    if that was true, wouldn't you see these well run clubs (in all sports) establishing dynasties of success through the advantages of being well run?
     
  5. Philly33

    Philly33 New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    If youre gonna act like you are the man at least have some basis for what youre talking about. And 1. if the salary cap helped well run teams be successful continuously then why does the nfl have no dynasties, why doesnt the NBA have dynasties? Why doesnt the NHL have dynasties? The answer is because they all have some sort of a salary cap. And 2. the teams that are going to have alot of money are normally going to be the well run clubs, for example Seattle and LA and TFC would all be able to spend alot because their revenues are the greatest. And yes rbny would be able to spend more but that hasnt made them better, paying millions for Angel hasnt made them any better that San Jose who havent spend a nickel on a DP.
     
  6. Midnight Attack

    Mar 13, 2005
    U.S.A|Jamaica|DCU
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I dont know what you guys are watching but both the NFL and NBA have dynasties.....:confused:.Dunno about the other 2 leagues.
     
  7. McLean FC

    McLean FC Member

    Dec 15, 2005
    McLean, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Between the Penguins and Capitals the next NHL dynasty is right around the corner.
     
  8. BringSoccerToIndy

    May 24, 2008
    1001 West New York Street, Indianapolis, IN
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    NFL
    Patriots have won 3 Super Bowls since 2001. Steelers have won 2. The Colts have had 7 straight 12 win seasons.

    MLB
    No salary cap. Red Sox are the only team to have two championships since the 90s Yankees dynasty ended.

    NBA
    Lakers have won 4 championships since 2000. Spurs have won 3 since then.

    NHL
    Just recently got a salary cap four years ago, and the Penguins and Red Wings have matched up in the last two Stanley Cup finals.

    No buying a championship in the NBA or NFL. That's why the Knicks and Redskins haven't been for a while.
     
  9. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I never understand the amount of people who just make that ridiculous statement without ever even attempting to look up the stats for the truth.

    To quash this, since the NBA salary cap was put in place:

    Lakers: 7 championships
    Bulls: 6 championships
    Spurs: 4 championsips
    Pistons: 3 championships
    Rockets: 2 championships
    Celtics: 2 championships
    Heat: 1 championship

    25 years, 7 total teams to win the championship. 3 times teams have 3-peated. Hell, the Lakers and the Bulls ALONE have won over half the championships in the NBA over the course of a 25 year period ... in a league of something around 30 teams. Yeah, no dynasties. :rolleyes: People continue to kill me with that foolishness.

    The NFL, since the salary cap was instituted, have 3 teams that have won 7 of the 15 championships, or nearly HALF of the titles out there. Again, out of a league of 30+ teams.

    What more do people want? The same team winning the league a full 50% of the time? Seriously?
     
  10. BringSoccerToIndy

    May 24, 2008
    1001 West New York Street, Indianapolis, IN
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The NFL dumping the salary cap will suck and hopefully it will be back in 2011. As a Colts fan I am not mad about supporting a small market team because irsay is a top 5 in spending on his team, but teams that don't have the extremely dedicated owners will be in trouble. Dumping the salary cap will seriously hurt the NFL. The salary cap creates parity and lets dynasties emerge if the teams are well-run. The Patriots, Colts and Steelers are examples of the well-run teams and the Cardinals and Bucs are examples of the teams that burst on to the scene and made it all the way to the Super Bowl.
     
  11. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    A dynasty doesn't mean winning all the time. It means being at the top, challenging, all the time, even when they have to replace ageing stars.

    One of the common comments said in praise of a salary cap is that it allows teams to go from being losers to being winners far more quickly and more often than in leagues without a cap. The flip side of that, barring some amazing management, is that the shelf-life of any top side is limited. How many teams are down and struggling because they are poorly run, and how many are down there because of having to break up a winning team and rebuild due to cap restraints?
     
  12. Philly33

    Philly33 New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Thank you. Maybe i used the word dynasty a little incorrect but i mean it in the terms of a manchester united, bayern munich, barcelona, real madrid, inter, juventus, a team that is always at the top of the table. I know that the patriots in american terms are a dynasty but they were not very good before the tom brady era which was less than 10 years ago. Pro/rel supports a system of tiered clubs with the elite clubs at the top that are always in contention, above average teams that are normally in the hunt, middle of the road clubs that get a chance every so often, and the bottom teams fighting to avoid relegation
     
  13. ChefJim27

    ChefJim27 Member

    Feb 9, 2008
    This is insane. MLS must have a salary cap. End of discussion.

    The salary cap forces owners to do two things. First, it ensures competitive balance, so that you don't end up with the Yankees and the Marlins. Second, it is an important measure of cost control. If MLS clubs did away with the cap, every MLS market would suddenly get into a bidding war for the likes of a Ronaldo or Henry, as the NASL did in the 70's, trying to replicate the Beckham effect of 2007. If that happened, MLS would go broke and fold faster than WCW in 2001. If you haven't noticed yet, MLS teams not named Seattle play to less than 22000 people, and a majority play to significantly less than that. Is it because USA fans don't know MLS exists? Is it because a splinter group in Rochester is waging a protest war, against the MLS dictatorship that forbids their proud Rhinos from being promoted? No.

    The attendance problems MLS suffers from are two primary ones.

    First, MLS is still a young league. Manchester United is a brand. AC Milan, Chelsea, Bayern Munich, Real Madrid; these are marketable brand names, with histories that go back longer than our own beloved NFL or NBA. When these teams show up, it is an event. When two NFL clubs play in Japan, or in England, they have gigantic crowds. What kind of crowds to Japan's X-League or the UK's BAFL draw? MLS clubs simply don't have the same sort of pedigree that the top UEFA clubs do, and it shows in attendance. MLS is making tremendous strides to improve the quality of play and their own history. These need to happen before we take the training wheels off, namely the salary cap and the single entity system. This leads me to MLS' second enormous problem.

    Soccer still isn't accepted as a "real" sport in America the same way that Gridiron Football, Baseball, and Basketball are. These three are the games that American sons learned about from American fathers. I am a Yankee fan, my mom was a Yankee fan, and my grandfather had box seats to Yankee Stadium in the 40's and 50's. My mother, who wasn't a sports fan at all, could tell me stories of how she went and saw DiMaggio, or Mickey Mantle. She giggled at Phil Rizzuto, and was in awe of Ted Williams. We simply don't have these stories. NASL fans used to jump up and down, and trash every sport other than soccer, telling all who would listen that by 2000, NASL would be the only game in town. When NASL folded in 1984, all those NFL, NBA and MLB fans they pissed off got the last word. Soccer was a worthless sport, and that's what those fathers told their sons. Sure, it was fine if you played soccer as a kid, but you played "real" football once you were old and strong enough. There are people in this country who think Poker is a more legitimate sport than soccer. It takes a long time for attitudes to change.

    That's the reason, more than any other, that MLS needs to grow slowly, and change the culture and the discussion around the sport. We all wish MLS was on par with the top European leagues, and American fans supported this game we all fell in love with like we do. Sorry, but that's not gonna happen for a while. Let MLS grow organically, without trying to rush them into Pro/Rel or Single Table before the majority of American fans are ready to accept it. You want MLS teams to be more competitive in the CONCACAF Champions League? So do I. However, I'm not going to call MLS garbage for not performing up to my own expectations in a competition that is only in its second campaign. I'm just happy we have one at all, not the CCC that was played until last year. We all need to take a step back, and embrace what we have, instead of all bitching and moaning about MLS not meeting our own outrageously inflated expectations of what we think it should be, based on what we have seen on TV from Europe.
     
  14. Philly33

    Philly33 New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Chef Jim,

    First off i dont understand who you are arguing against? I completely agree that a salary cap is needed now and for the future. In my plan i said that either a soft salary cap or no salary cap would be implemented down the road. A soft cap would not allow teams to crumble like the NASL. And when you learn that it is Thierry Henry not Henri you will actually have some credibility
     
  15. jason1551

    jason1551 Member+

    Apr 9, 2003
    Columbus, GA
    Club:
    DC United
    Those aren't dynasties; those are teams that have outspent the competition. Dynasties are teams that are built to compete at the highest level and maintain that for a time. They do that by spending money wisely within the limits of the leagues they play in. By those standards, yes, there are dynasties in the NFL and NBA. Good organizations build competitive teams. Great organizations keep them there.
     
  16. JeremyEritrea

    JeremyEritrea Member+

    Jun 29, 2006
    Takoma Park, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Promotion and relegation will NEVER occur in MLS.
     
  17. jason1551

    jason1551 Member+

    Apr 9, 2003
    Columbus, GA
    Club:
    DC United
    As far as the OP's premise, it fails because MLS will expand before such a system could ever take place.

    If the idea is that MLS2(or whatever they might call themselves) teams could take the spot of an expansion bid, then MLS loses out on the expansion fee and likely has a team in a non-major market area. A quick look at the current standings would have Carolina and Puerto Rico moving up. One is ridiculously out of the way (P.R.), while the other has a stadium that doesn't meet MLS standards. Most teams in the USL have similar problems, so how would you account for such discrepencies on a year-to-year basis?
     
  18. Midnight Attack

    Mar 13, 2005
    U.S.A|Jamaica|DCU
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Oh, so basically like an old medieval cast system. The nfl and the nba are specifically set up to avoid that. I dont know why you implied that its failing to do what it was designed to do.
     
  19. ChefJim27

    ChefJim27 Member

    Feb 9, 2008
    My argument was merely your system starts now. Posters on BS think that these changes are needed or wanted, when they exist only in some posters minds. Your OP was built on a house of cards. The first aspect of its feasibility requires the unhappy USL-1 teams to form MLS2 for the 2010 season. It also dictates that we are going to be to roughly 36 profitable and stable franchises by 2013. Correct me if I am wrong. I wanted to get my two cents out on this one. I still have yet to hear anyone, on any Pro/Rel thread come up with a reasonable argument of why the radical change to MLS' buisness structure is needed or wanted.

    BTW: Thanks for pointing out my spelling error. I fixed it in the post you are referencing. If you are going to get upset with me, and tell me I have no credibility for misspelling Therry Henry's name, I need to point out to you that when the pronoun "I" is used, it always must be capitalized. I am not going to attack your credibility, however. I read your posts, and it seems clear to me that you didn't take the time to read mine. You get no Italian Chicken at Union Field. ;)
     
  20. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    would the American public give a shit about teams in the last two categories though?

    A team with lots of history behind it, where there's generations of support, can probably survive. Clubs that have been around for 10 minutes would find fans suddenly finding other alternatives on a Saturday afternoon. Unless you have a heck of a lot of clubs ready to step up when those clubs fold, it's not a great idea.
     
  21. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Isn't that exactly what they do?

    OK, when you get the kind of cash advantage that the big 4 in the premiership get, it makes the job a little easier, but it's not just a case of there being a linear trend correlating income with success. Look at Newcastle for the most obvious example of that. Plenty of clubs punch above their weight, and plenty underachieve.

    "Great organisation" isn't sustainable in the long run though. Under a cap those successful teams will invariably break up and the club will endure a few difficult years while rebuilding.

    That's why (if you rewind back to what started this little side discussion) pro/rel would be unworkable with a salary cap. It'd result in healthy, well-run clubs being at a high risk of dropping during rebuilding cycles.
     
  22. Philly33

    Philly33 New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    To your argument i say does anyone care about the florida marlins? The answer is no the only difference is that they get to stay just as theyare. And in the NFL the teams that perform the worst are rewarded the most with an easy schedule and the first pick
     
  23. Philly33

    Philly33 New Member

    Aug 11, 2009
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Exactly my point.

    And to Chef Jim i apologize for being to harsh on your mispelling. And i dont expect all of the MLS teams to be financial stable or even profitable which is why my proposal doesnt allow an MLS team to be relegated for at least 12-13 years. So if an MLS team cant make it work by then, then there are two things- that organization probably wont ever be successful and 2, the way the club is run probably doesnt deserve a top tier team. And the worst that comes out of my plan- if a team from MLS gets relegated in 13 years it will have a very good chance at getting back in in the following year
     
  24. RichardL

    RichardL BigSoccer Supporter

    May 2, 2001
    Berkshire
    Club:
    Reading FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Enough people do to stop them going bust. Would the same be true of an MLS club?
     
  25. ChefJim27

    ChefJim27 Member

    Feb 9, 2008
    The Marlins were on the verge of being contracted in 2005. Now, they are getting a downtown Miami ballpark, when they will be renamed the Miami Marlins. BTW: The Marlins are the only National League team to win more than one World Series since the Strike. Their problem is the 1998 season. They won the World Series in 1997, and Wayne Huizenga (sp) lost a buttload of cash doing it. When there was virtually no bump in season tickets for 1998, the owner sold off all the pieces of that club to get his balance sheet back in order. Marlins fans simply never forgave him for that, and now Miami is thought of as a fairweather city. That reputation has spread as far as soccer, where BS posters questioned Miami's ability to support a team, when Barca's interest in MLS was strongest during the 2011 expansion derby.

    I get that, but you're still starting a Pro/Rel system now. At this moment, you're attempting to fill a demand that currently does not exist. The demand might be there in 13 years, but it might not, and MLS would be silly to commit to a system that supplies without demand.

    Thanks for the apology, but you're still not getting any Italian Chicken at the tailgates at Union Field. If you were at the Gold Cup tailgate, you've already tasted my cooking. Perhaps you'll be a little nicer in the future. :cool:
     

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