I think I have a real idea here. . . The league's goals per game rate has dropped to 2.6gpg this season. This is a big drop off from prior years and has generated a lot of debate about the style of play. Most of our issues with the league's style of play are either hard to address at all (like the way IFAB looks at the persistent infringement violation), or hard to address right away (like the quality of the league's refs). But I think assigning caution points for fouls is one change we could make that would give us at least some moderate immediate returns. The most amaznig stat I have seen in a long time is that DAVY ARNAUD SUFFERED 111 FOULS THIS YEAR! That's the most in MLS history by a country mile. (It's 15 more than Beasley drew last year to lead the league, and 26 more than Twellman drew to lead the league two years ago.) Now, I don't think Davy Arnaud is that bad a player, but no one's gonna confuse him with Ronaldo, that he has to be fouled nearly half the time he touches the ball. There's only one reason for suffering that many fouls that I can see: teams strategized against KC by fouling them whenever they were about to get into dangerous positions. And since KC doesn't have that many attacking options besides Arnaud and Wolff. . . Are the increase in fouling of the top players (because it isn't only Arnaud) and the decrease in goals related phenomena? It certainly appears so. So what would we do about it? The biggest problem here is that a FK for an ordinary foul is really no punishment at all most of the time. It almost always gives the opponent a less dangerous chance than they had when they were fouled (kind of like basketball, that way, except in a game with such low scoring as soccer, denying the opponent a chance or two over the course of the game is far more important). So what can we do about it? We can't change the penalty for a foul within a game, as that would be agaisnt the Laws of the Game. But we can punish the people who do this regularly. Here's an example: --We can assess a player a caution point for every foul he commits in a game above number 3. Above 3, I think you have a decent pattern. If a guy commits 6 fouls in a game, he's that much closer to suspensions and fines, even if the (timid?) ref didn't show him the yellow. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Now, even a cursory look at the stats convinces me we have to do this in a sophisticated way. 1 -- For one thing, guys like Arnaud, Carlos Ruiz, and Taylor Twellman are often among the league leaders in fouls committed. Sometimes it's because they're too aggressive, but to some extent that's just the nature of the beast up top. So you institute a 'forgiveness clause': a player is 'forgiven' 1 caution point in any game in which he suffers at least 4 fouls (maximum of 1 point. . .forgiveness only goes so far). 2 -- Also part of the nature of the beast is 'foul spreading': there are more pure defenders than pure attackers out there, and teams can and do spread their fouls out among different defending players. So when it's a team doing the fouling instead of a player, you punish the person responsible: THE COACH. How about a caution point for every five fouls his team commits during a game above ten? (So 15 fouls=1 point, 20 fouls=2, etc. Ten is assumed to be nearly the least you see in a game, and not reflective of a deliberate strategy). The way the fines and suspensions currently work, coaches whose teams constantly foul would get fines and suspensions for it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ So, there it is. Fire away!
I really don't think you need to get so complicated with it. It is up to the ref to determine if a certin player is being targeted by fouls. If so, the ref can give yellow cards or red cards. Maybe it is as simple as some ref training.
I think that's utopian. Northside and I agree that incentivized proposals would work far faster, and far more evenly, than ref training alone. (Not that there's any reason to be against it!)
Thats already supposed to be happening. Its not. And I doubt 2005 will bring much change in that respect. They don't even have to change the way the game is called - though they should. They can just kep doing what they are already doing. The fouls are easy to count. They are already counted at the individual and team level. Nothing has to be done to change the actual game - its just how MLS manages the fouls after game. No one will foul out like in the NBA - but accumulated points may make someone miss a game like accumulated yellow cards. The more I think about it - the more I like this idea.
And let me make a bigger point: we have a Laws of the Game problem here. Currently, the Laws view persistent fouling as just individual misbehavior, and not ever the calculated decisions of coaches, which we know it sometimes is. We need a way to punish the whole team for cynical tactics, and on the field there's just no way to do it. But this proposal gets around that problem.
I really like it as well. I don't think it's complicated at all. It's actually very simple. Has someone tried to e-mail this to someone at MLS HQ?
If the persistent infringement rule is applied properly, doesn't this take care of itself? Or is "carrying over" the non-cardable caution points an important element? Later, COZ
A) That's a pretty big "if." B) at the least, it does not address the foul-spreading issue (not as IFAB interprets the rule, at any rate).
I thought that it did address the foul-spreading. The ref could either call one player for a pattern of fouling, or penalize a team for a pattern of fouling a player (meaning that you could get a P.I. for your first foul on a player if you're the 3rd player to tactically foul him). I'd like to see more yellows for intentional fouls in the defensive third of the field. There are a lot of players in the MLS who simply dump a player who's trying to get behind them.
I love it conceptually... Here's the rubs. FIFA wants rule changes only applicable to everybody....professional leagues or otherwise. So it to do this you have to count. So, the refs have to be able to tell someone, who records it. So, you've got to have a approved score keeper for every game... and that's not just MLS, but the under 16 girls. And I guess you can't just get volunteers, it becomes a trained/sanctioned role just like to be a ref. And rub 2, refs have told me they will call fouls even if sometimes they can't tell you who it is they're calling it on. Refsalso tell me 4th officials already have plenty of jobs....or at least times when they're too distracted to keep a foul count. Never seems that way to me. I think the 4th official should just tally and you get a yellow card each time you commit 3 fouls. And it doesn't matter if you already have a yellow card or if it's a playoff game or whatever. Honest truth though, I think if refs actually called the game based on the rules as written, it would be fine. It's just that they don't. They interpret and modify the rules in the name of "a better game" which simply isn't. Me, I'd do anything to have a little more free flowing "beautiful game" and less violent "American pointy ball wanna be" any day. -KMJvet
My understanding is that the persistent infringement yellow is widely understood to be applicable to an individual player. Perhaps I'm wrong and someone can look into it.
My understanding on this one is that the caution rules are competition rules, that do not have to be the same for all competitions in a country. For MLS, though, you would need an official scorer. I really don't know if that scorer him/herself could count the fouls, or if a ref has to do it. I must say that after nine years I'm no longer predisposed to wait around. There are limits to how far I'd go to get that, but this is well within them.
Persistent Infringement can be a pattern of fouls by one player in general, or a pattern of fouls by a team against one player. In the latter case, the referee notices the pattern, puts the team on notice, and shows a caution to the NEXT player fouling this opponent. I'm not so sure Fifa would go for this proposal because suspending a player for something not defined in the laws might not be something it goes for. These stats are useful though and making the data accessible to the referees with the match assignment is something the league really needs to consider. You can email that suggestion to the referee department and see if they bite. They do mention this sort of information and being prepared by doing your homework and this might reinforce that. In spirit, its a great idea.
During the Milan-Barcelona CL game of two weeks ago, it must have taken about 6 fouls on Ronaldinho for a yellow card to be issued. Until then, he was hacked down mercilessly.
Stan, I've been thinking about the caution points for some time, mostly influenced by the basketball obviously. I even toyed with the idea borrowed from hockey of having players sent off the field for 10-15 minutes when they receive a yellow card. Further drifting into the novel proposals, I thought about not only counting total fouls but constituting a form of punishment for them. For example, much like a basketball team is punished by free throws after a set number of fouls, I proposed that, after 7 team fouls in each half, each subsequent foul would punished by having the ball placed at a specific spot, either a cornerkick or a predetermined point somewhere 25 yards from the offending goal (let's say 25 yards away along the each side of the goalkeeper box) for a direct free-kick as the injured team's option. If a total foul count is to be kept, a suspension based on them instead of a card accumulation can also be pontificated. In that sense, it'd be probably easier to get by FIFA since disciplinary actions can be left up to an individual league.
This is the 'persistent infringement' rule, from the Laws of the Game, at FIFA.com. From the Instructions to Referees (also fifa.com): To assume that it is permissible to caution one player for the persistent infringement of the team is to contravene the plain text of the rule. Therefore, the 'foul-spreading' issue is not particularly addressed by it. -- As to the issue of whether FIFA would have a problem, I can't find anything in the Laws of the Game or FIFA Statutes that would apply. Perhaps something in the Disciplinary Code (http://www.fifa.com/organisation/Discplinary_Code_FDC-E.pdf) might, but I cannot find any text that would seem to forbid a league from adjusting it's discipline policy as I've recommended (in fact, I couln't find anything related to a 'caution ponits' type policy at all). Since it's well known that a league has no play to alter the Laws of the Game, but has significant authority to change its Competition Rules, my recommendation to MLS if they were interested would be: "just try it." FIFA and IFAB probably won't mind. MLS already gets away with their own vicissitudes on the caution point system (such as a good behavior clause that reduces the points by four for those close to suspension but who acquire no sanctions for three consecutive matches.)
Right. MLS would probably have to call it 'Discipline Points' rather than 'caution points.' As to your other suggestion, I've actually heard it from a couple of English managers as well, (the term 'sin bin' was used), but I would despair of ever getting the Laws changed, since they are in effect worldwide.
*gasp* Not worldwide! Whatever will we do if they ever found out about the football lines!? Run for cover! Hide your children! Grab the canned meat from the cupboard!
Which is it? You can't have both. Calling all the fouls and enforcing the rules as written would produce something a lot more like American pointy ball than we have even now. You're either going to have lots of fouls or lots of diving, and there is no pure beautiful game that can be created just by refereeing. It's the perennial Europe vs. Latin America issue: in Europe they strive for a "free flowing" game and ignore a lot of fouls. In Latin America cards come out right and left and you get lots of stoppages and lots of diving. MLS refs seem to try for a middle ground, which pleases nobody and pisses off both types of fans.
A ? about caution "pts", how does it work? Points for fouls? See ths is what I am talking about. MLS and there need to be different. It ought to be, if you receive 5 yellow cards throughout season, you get a red, and a 2game suspensions, plain and simple. What with this 5pts for this and 5pts for that, it is these kind of rules that MLS a laughingstock of the soccer leagues!!
I can see it now, a player gets sent of for 15min penalty thus giving the other team a 15min powerplay. That is a LONG time for just one yellow, it seems rather harsh to penalize the entire team. That is what yellow card is for to punish the player but since MLS allows these sill y pts for yellow cards then of course players foul like crazy because depending on the foul, it is worth different kind of pts. If MLS said 5 Yellow card accumalations and your on a a two game holiday then players would know where the league stands and that it means business. It doesnt have to be 5 cards it could 4 or even 3. The league is the one setting rules and it is the one allowing players to slide on through with these poitns, IMO, a yellow is a yellow. Players much like children need boundaries and they test those boundaries to see how far they can go, MLS needs to step in and be the authorative parent that it needs to be