A list of all time great players, and the pantheon of greatest ever

Well, I don't mean to argue against Sarosi as such or anything (from what I read and saw I like him, and I was arguing for him as a pantheon inclusion here of course too)

But I just see it more like the highest (though unlikely of course) possibility being more like 35 assists for Sindelar (considering factoring in what we think are the correct numbers between us for the England games and some Hungary games). And for Meazza (deducting one assist of Biavati vs England in 1939) the maximum seems to be 30 assists, and vs Hungary in the games you have data for he assisted 6 out of 14 Italy goals (scoring one himself, so that was a 50% rate for goals+assists but without scoring many at all - he did score 5 Italy goals out of 11 in the other games vs Hungary though with assists unknown/unlisted).

 

34 for Sindelar would be the maximum, without the rebound assist deducted as per post #825 then I think.

I mean, I'm pretty sure it's not gonna be 34 (or 30 for Meazza) but it could be a bit higher potentially than 10 or 12 for each....

 

MITROPA CUP

Gyorgy Sarosi
42 GAMES
50 GOALS
16 ASSISTS
119 GF
42,02 G+A %
55,46 G+A %

Giuseppe Meazza
27 GAMES
29 GOALS
(?) ASSISTS
61 GF
47,54 G%

Matthias Sindelar
31 GAMES
24 GOALS
1+ ASSISTS (from 4 identified games)
73 GF
32,88 G+A%

Stats in Semifinal and Final

Gyorgy Sarosi
19 GAMES
16 GOALS
8 ASSISTS
42 GF
38,10 G%
57,14 G+A%

Giuseppe Meazza
10 GAMES
5 GOALS
(?) ASSISTS
18 GF
27,77 G%

Matthias Sindelar
12 GAMES
11 GOALS
1+ ASSISTS (from 4 identified games)
24 GF
45,83 G%

 

There aren't any assists for Meazza vs Brazil in 1938 I don't think but he does score a penalty (so it's not a non-penalty goal, but if looking at things that way then the goal would not be among the total non-penalty goals of Italy of course).

 

Footballers rated significantly higher in their own country than elsewhere form an important group. One would expect their local rating to be more accurate.

Who else is there? Among goalkeepers, Carrizo, Khomich, van Beveren and one or two Belgians perhaps.

 

Khomich is the exact opposite, though? His high reputation is built entirely on the Dynamo tour. If you look at the Soviet best player rankings, he's not even the top-ranked goalie of his era (it's Anatoly Akimov).

 

https://fcdm.ru/news/po-prozvishhu-tigr-14082

The Russian source below suggests he was highly regarded in the Soviet Union.

Yes the post-war Dynamo tours of Britain and Scandinavia helped establish his reputation, but he only made one international appearance due to Stalin's fear of crowds at football matches turning into political protest. Akimov was five years older than Khomich. Neither have much of an international reputation now.

The young Yashin was said to be inspired by Khomich and used him as a mentor.

The Dynamo tours are pretty well forgotten today.

https://fcdm.ru/news/po-prozvishhu-tigr-14082

 

Link below provides some information about Soviet goalkeepers from the 1920s and 1930s.

It is not mentioned here but Akimov sometimes lost his place in the Spartak Moscow team to rival Vladislav Zhmelkov. These two both appear to have been rated ahead of Khomich.

The first outstanding Soviet keeper, Nikolai Sokolov, gained some recognition abroad from touring, like Khomich. The top Ukrainian keeper seems to have been Roman Norov.

http://russianfootballnews.com/nikolai-sokolov-the-founder-of-russian-goalkeeping/

 

The source lists his main claims to fame, which are the Dynamo tour and him being Yashin's predecessor. It also mentions he made it to the list of 33, but forgets to mention he only made it to the first 11 once. Second team once, as well, and third team twice. Akimov's numbers are nine first places and three second team places. Between them is also Vladimir Nikanorov, with two first team, five second team, and two third team places.

Admittedly, much of the lists are collected by one guy retroactively, but the difference is pretty clear here. As for their modern reputations, I'd say Khomich has a pretty high one, whereas Akimov is pretty much 100% unknown.

I don't see Akimov occasionally losing his spot as a huge problem. Yashin lost his spot at times, too, after all. It kinda seems to me like the Soviets had a football culture where the goalie is replaced more easily? The reports of recognition abroad I'd take with more than a grain of salt, though. It's the USSR, after all. Their football press was comedic levels of BS, like trying to claim Turkey was a top team, and flat out forging foreign praise.

 

Interesting thanks.

That has filled in a few gaps. I was trying to get a full list of leading Soviet goalkeepers for each year 1918-1991. Russian Wiki covers 1948-91, plus 1926, 1928, 1930, 1933 and 1938.

Is the guy who produced the retrospective lists Yu S. Lukashin? If you have his goalkeeping data that would be great.

It looks as though the missing years might look something like this.

1918: Martynov (pre-war goalie)
1919: Sokolov
1920: Sokolov

All from excerpt of Lukashin's book in Russian.

Sokolov apparently wins the award ten times. He wins in 1926, 1928 and 1930, and presumably in 1924 when he finishes in third place for Soviet Footballer of the Year.

1921-22: Sokolov?
1923: Polezhayev? Makes two appearances for NT to Sokolov's one.
1925: Sokolov. Appears in USSR's sole international.
1927 and 1929: Sokolov and one other? Tchulkov? Norov?

1931: Savintsev? Appears in USSR's sole international.
1932: Babkin? Makes three appearances for NT to Granatkin's one.
1933: Babkin? Appears in USSR's sole international.
1934: Idzkovskiy? Appears in USSR's sole international.
1935: Shorets? Makes four appearances for NT to Ryzhov's two.

You mention that Akimov was leading keeper nine times. The last time was 1949. He won in 1938, 1948 and 1949 and looks a good bet for 1940 when he was awarded the prestigious Master of Sports. His rival at Spartak, Zhmelkov, won retrospectively in 1939.

Another excerpt from Lukashin's book shows that he gave Nicanorov the award in 1947 and you mention that Nicanorov won it twice. Khomich presumably gets 1945.

For Akimov to get to nine awards Lukashin must have included the war years 1941-44 when little football was played in the Soviet Union. The seven years that now appear up for grabs are 1936-37, 1941-44 and 1946. Akimov wins five of those leaving one for Nicanorov (1946?) and one for someone else. There are no internationals between 1936 and 1951 so no clue there.

Ryzhov won a league title with Spartak in 1936, and Fokin league and cup with Dynamo in 1937, so they may challenge Akimov in those years.

As you say Khomich is second once (in 1949 behind Akimov) and third twice (1947 behind Nicanorov and Akimov; 1948 behind the same two in different order).

Overall Yashin has 14 annual awards, Sokolov 10, and Akimov and Dasaev 9 each.

 

Yes, it's Lukashin's book, and yes, the war years are included. I included the full lists back to 1931 in here.

Pretty good research you've done. The only changes are the following:
18: Franz Shimkunas?
23: Sokolov
There also seems to be some difference between the book and the wiki. Lukashin has Savintsev for 26 and Babkin for 30.

I have the entire book on PDF (it's in cyrillic, ofc), so pm if you need it.

 

Many thanks for the file - very useful - and also for the kind offer of the book. Unfortunately I cannot read Cyrillic script - hence my error for 1918 as I did not recognise the Cyrillic name from elsewhere.

Regarding the differences between Russian wiki and the book for 1926 and 1930, wiki seems more likely to be correct.

In October 1926 the Krasny Sport newspaper published a readers' poll. For the position of goalkeeper, Sokolov received 524 votes, Savintsev 7 and Leonov 4. Lukashin has retrospectively gone for Savintsev.

In December 1930 the editorial board of the journal Physical Culture and Sport selected Sokolov as first choice keeper, followed by Filippov and Savintsev. Lukashin retrospectively chose Babkin who was not in their top three.

That would give Sokolov 12 annual awards, all consecutive.

The only keepers to win Soviet Footballer of the Year at the same time were Zhmelkov in 1939 (saved seven penalties in a row), Yashin in 1954, 1956, 1959-61, 1963, Rudakov in 1971 and Dasaev in 1982.

 

The historian Lukashin may have been focusing on unofficial international games when when making his choices for 1926 and 1930.

The readers' poll in 1926 took place shortly before matches against Sweden and Turkey. I have been unable to find out who played in goal for USSR.

In 1930 Babkin appeared in goal for USSR against Finland, Sweden and Norway. Perhaps Lukashin has assumed the selectors chose him ahead of Sokolov.

 

Matthias Sindelar vs György Sárosi - International Stats

games as forward*

43 Games - 43 Games
3841 Minutes - 3870 Minutes
26 Goals - 41 Goals
25 Assists - 20 Assists
1.20 G+A P90 - 1.42 G+A P90
40.80 G+A % - 57.55 G+A %

Competitive International

16 Games - 14 Games
9 Goals - 23 Goals
8 Assists - 11 Assists
1.05 G+A P90 - 2.43 G+A P90
41.46 G+A % - 77.27 G+A %

Shocking. Sarosi won in all aspects with massive gap

Source : https://anno.onb.ac.at/cgi-content/anno?aid=wst

 

The British Press in the 1930s is not the best source for comparing European footballers, but it is clear that they regarded Sarosi, Sindelar and Meazza as very different types of player. Their observations were based largely on performances against British teams. One paper described the World Cup as a "so-called world championship".

Of the three, Sarosi was seen very much as the star of his team. He posed a more direct goal threat than the other two, especially in the air. Versatility was noted - "no mean centre-half".

Meazza comes across as a gifted individualist in a strong side. The most skilful dribbler of the three, he also excelled at free-kicks and had an outgoing personality.

Sindelar looked the best, being described as "polished" and "stylish". He was the most effective passer and a more tactical player, adept at bringing others into the game. It is doubtful whether his worth can be measured by goals and assists.

Others, such as "notable marksman" Braine and "sparkling" Nejedly drew praise, but there is no doubt which European footballer impressed British newspapers and crowds the most during the 1930s: Fritz Szepan.

English spectators nicknamed him "Greta" as his blond hair was similar in colour to actress Garbo's. The Scots called him "Saucepan". The names were meant to be affectionate although the player himself did not particularly appreciate them.

The press were mightily impressed - and these were all matches that Germany lost. After a 3-0 defeat to England at Tottenham in 1935:

"Szepan did twice as much work in this match as any other player for he was inside-right, inside-left, left-half, centre-half, right-back, left-back and everything else you can think of - and he was always doing good things." Daily Herald.

"The best footballer in the side was Szepan, the inside-right who linked up attack and defence with real thoughtfulness and skill. In the second half he was more a half-back than a forward, and stayed in the rear every bit as does Alex James in the Arsenal side - more, I should say." Ivan Sharpe.

"one of the most artistic, yet constructive, footballers in the game." Belfast Telegraph.

"Szepan An Outstanding Player" Headline of Aberdeen Press and Journal.

The following year the Germans were beaten 2-0 by Scotland at Ibrox, due mainly to a couple of goalkeeping errors:

"[Szepan's] tactical skill, neat ball control and individual positional play made much of the Scots' work look crude. He kept the ball moving and used the reverse ball to advantage." The Scotsman.

"master craftsman...one of the finest forwards seen in Scotland for years." Yorkshire Post and Leeds Intelligencer.

"glutton for work...ball control with either foot a revelation of dexterity and neatness...real footballer's intuition of setting an opponent running the wrong way...as accurate a passer as James". Lancashire Evening Post.

Even when Germany were beaten 6-3 at home by England in Berlin in 1938, it wasn't Szepan's fault. He was supposedly given far too much to do by his inferior teammates.

Scotland and Aston Villa right-half Alec Massie put his name to a piece in the Aberdeen People's Journal in June 1939. The three best inside-lefts he had marked were Peter Doherty, Alex James and Szepan. He thought Szepan's ball skills were behind the other two but found him a more awkward customer due to a habit, unusual at the time, of receiving the ball with his back to goal.

A criticism of Szepan, raised by Charlie Buchan and one or two others, was that after passing the ball he did not always follow up an attack, preferring to sit back in case the move broke down. In that, he was more like a half-back than an inside-forward.

With an argumentative personality and Polish roots, Szepan does not appear to have been appreciated as much in his native Germany as he was in Britain.

 

Luis Arconada was the best goalkeeper in the early 80s. Much better than Shilton, although with less difference than Dasayev (the best from the early to late 80s) or Pfaff (the best in the late 80s) were. His contribution so that a small provincial club with homegrown players (Gipuzkoa represented 1.84% of the population of Spain in 1981) won two leagues was outstanding. In 1980-81 he achieved that the Real Sociedad had the longest unbeaten run (36 games: 4 from 1979-80 season,and 32 from 1979-80 season) FC Barcelona surpassed this Real Sociedad's record 38 years later (2017-18)
In Euro'1984 he was able to lead the Spanish team (5th team in the tournament according to the Elo ranking -12th Global-) to play the final. After the match against West Germany (1st), a photo of Schumacher and Arconada appeared in L'Equipe saying: the two best goalkeepers in the world. As with West Germany, Arconada would once again have a great performance in the semifinals against Denmark (https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xyq5nx), which led Spain to play in the final, which had only managed to score 4 goals in the tournament (and would not score any in the final). The fact that he did not play in big teams, or that he was relegated from the national team by Muñoz, by federative order, even though he was the best goalkeeper in Spain (he won the 1987 Cup with Real Sociedad in another great performance on penalties)
In 2007, Jean-Marie Pfaff gave an interview to AS (https://as.com/futbol/2007/05/10/mas_futbol/1178778453_850215.html) where it was possible to read:
Interviewer: Do you think Arconada was better than now Casillas?
JM.P.: Yes. There is a big difference and that is that Casillas plays for Madrid and Arconada did for a modest club, Real Sociedad. He had to fight and he won a lot of points for his team.

Arconada: 522 goals conceded in 621 games (0.84), 3 Zamora trophies (1980, 1981, 1982); 12 penalties saved (12/58) in Liga.

Iker Casillas: 861 goals in 873 games (0.99) Real Marid: 751/725 (1.04), FC Porto: 110/148 (0.74), 1 Zamoira Trophy (2008); penaltis saved: 11/56 in Liga
Ángel Iribar: 677/697 (0.97), 1 Zampra Trophy (1970); 5 penalties saved (5/54)

 

It's interesting because of noticed one or two other posters saying similar things about Arconada on the forum, and I recently noticed that at the same time Laudrup was awarded a best foreign player of the 25 years (1974-1999) accolade, Arconada received one for best Spanish player too from Don Balon.

This video shows pretty well his prowess with saving shots I guess


I could believe actually that he was better than Shilton in early 80s (at least after 1980 itself), although I would say Shilton was at his best in the late 70s I'm pretty sure - actually in some respects their saving style is even a bit similar in their respective primes I think:


Funnily enough Shilton was the goalkeeper when Forest set a long unbeaten record for unbeaten games in the English league too (and while both before the run started in 77/78 and after it finished in 78/79 Forest had periods of scoring a good amount of goals, during it they did rely on keeping clean sheets and only averaging conceding just over 0.5 goals per game, with Shilton to thank in large part although perhaps Arconada would have had more shots to save overall in his run - I'm not really sure though):
footballsite - Nottingham Forest set a new Football League record in 1978 by remaining unbeaten in 42 consecutive League games. The record lasted until bettered by Arsenal in 2004.

 

https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/b...bigsoccer-users.2119696/page-15#post-40433870

 

On the point about Meazza's free-kicks, it's hard to be sure about everything we read I think, but while I'm still slightly unsure (of feel more unsure than before even) about exactly what style of free-kick Didi's falling leaf was, I believe from what I've seen in a few places, that Meazza had a style that did involve some kind of similar technique to the 'Juninho Pernambucano style', interestingly
Pele to Zico to Beckham to Ronaldo: Evolution of the Free-Kick Masters | News, Scores, Highlights, Stats, and Rumors | Bleacher Report
Juninho — The Art of the Dead Ball | by Casey Evans | Medium
I think Pirlo, once he was copying Juninho style free-kicks, was said in Italy to be using the Maledetta free-kick himself wasn't he (because that's the Italian name for it)?

I know Cristiano Puskas showed us a nice Sarosi free-kick goal before (if I try to remember how it was, I guess I'd say it was a little like how Beckenbauer and Cruyff sometimes took them in the 70s).

Anyway, I thought it was interesting to add

 

I am glad that Arconada's name comes up again in this forum. I think that justice has not been done to a goalkeeper of exceptional quality. I remember on one occasion there was a discussion here about whether Zubizarreta was better than Arconada, in which, if I remember correctly, Zubi didn't come out as well as the Real goalkeeper. Even within Spain (@Buyo will know perfectly well) he was not treated properly by blaming him for a blunder in the Euro final, forgetting about an exemplary career. In no case, punctual mistakes can spoil a wonderful professional work throughout so many years; I would say the same about Cardeñosa. I do not like to put my opinions above the objective data, although I enjoy doing it as an exercise of personal reflection. Therefore, recognizing that Arconada has been among the elite of Spanish goalkeepers, it would be very difficult to place him above Zamora and Casillas, also taking into account the difficulty of comparing players (although they share the same position) from different periods. If we take into account the worldwide repercussion of Zamora and Casillas, Arconada would lose out compared to them; if we take into account the statistics of goals conceded per game, I suppose he could be better than the others, although we must take into account that in the late 70's and early 80's, at least in Spain, defensive precautions were imposed on the forwards; we should combine the extreme hardness of many defenders with more flexible refereeing criteria. This helped many goalkeepers to have really low goals conceded ratios. In short, we can each make our own rankings, but we cannot establish that ours are the truth about those of the rest. In any case, I repeat, I am very glad that, at least here, Arconada's meritorious career is recognized, although, putting him above Casillas and Zamora seems to me really risky.

Me alegra que vuelva a salir el nombre de Arconada en este foro. Creo que no se ha hecho justicia con un portero de una categoría excepcional. Recuerdo que en una ocasión se entabló aquí una discusión sobre si Zubizarreta era mejor que Arconada, en la que, si no recuerdo mal, Zubi no salió tan bien parado como el portero de la Real. Incluso dentro de España (@Buyo lo sabrá perfectamente) no fue tratado adecuadamente achacándole un error garrafal en la final de la Eurocopa, olvidándose de una trayectoria ejemplar. En ningún caso, fallos puntuales pueden afear un trabajo profesional maravilloso a lo largo de tantos años; otro tanto diría de Cardeñosa. A mi no me gusta poner mis opiniones por encima de los datos objetivos, aunque me divierte hacerlo como un ejercicio de reflexión personal. Con lo cual, reconociendo que Arconada ha estado en la élite de los porteros españoles, sería muy complicado posicionarle por encima de Zamora y Casillas, teniendo en cuenta además, la dificultad de comparar jugadores (aunque compartan posición) de diferentes épocas. Si tenemos en cuenta la repercusión mundial de Zamora y Casillas, Arconada saldría perdiendo respecto a ellos; si tenemos en cuenta las estadísticas de goles encajados por partido, supongo que podría estar mejor que los otros, si bien hay que tener en cuenta que los finales de los años 70 y principios de los 80, al menos en España, las precauciones defensivas se imponían sobre los delanteros; habría que unir la dureza extrema de muchos defensas con criterios arbitrales más flexibles. Ello ayudaba a que muchos porteros tenían ratios de goles encajados realmente bajos. En resumen, cada uno podemos hacer nuestros rankings, pero no podremos establecer que los nuestros supongan la verdad sobre los del resto. En cualquier caso, repito, me alegro mucho de que, al menos aquí se reconozca la meritoria carrera de Arconada, aunque, ponerlo por encima de Casillas y Zamora me parece realmente arriesgado.

 

I know I'm very late, but reading the content of this thread has been very interesting.

As usual I must congratulate @Tom Stevens's enormous work and in order to index him I've compiled up to his latest update (I just removed some repeat players and the classification by positions is one linked to my system).

1st Part
2nd Part

After a quick review, the only player that comes to mind as an omission is the Argentine and star of Boca Juniors between 30s and 40s, Ernesto Lazzatti. Was he deliberately omitted?

 

Completely agree. One of the best midfielders of the time. By association of ideas, I would also miss Sarlanga. Nevertheless, the wonderful and very rigorous work of Tom Stevens.

 

I made a list of World Cup records in the presence of certain key players (more will be added). Here it is:

https://football-ratings.blogspot.com/2023/03/national-teams-world-cup-scores-with.html

What strikes me is that Polish players are very high on the list, but are almost never mentioned in GOAT lists. Of course, World Cups is just i tiny bit o a player's career, but it's not an unimportant one. Btw, I'll make a separate list of GK and Jan Tomaszewski is very high on that one.

 

@PDG1978
Have you seen this
https://m.youtube.com/shorts/2E4zKinT9Fo