A list of all time great players, and the pantheon of greatest ever

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Mar 27, 2020.

  1. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Also looking back at Valeron and Mendieta although I doubt they have the needed longevity.
     
  2. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    I would add Mihajlovic, Pires, Kluivert and Crespo. Trezeguet, Inzaghi and Toldo are possibilities. I guess Bierhoff loses on longevity grounds?

    Agree Emerson and Hyypiä can go. Vieri definitely needs to be there, though. Would also drop Campbell and Cocu. Mendieta is like the poster boy for high peak without longevity.

    Zanetti could be moved to late 00s to go with Inter's dominant era.
     
  3. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Giovane Elber and Jocelyn Angloma are two more with really strong club careers but not much with the national team. Elber is stuck behind Ronaldo and Angloma behind Thurman so no shame their. Both were excellent in European competitions so it is worth some thought.
     
  4. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I will go through the players mentioned. I think moving Zanetti to the next era is a good idea in some ways, but all of his ESM votes come between 98-03, and he has his most high profile decisive national team performances during this time so I will keep him here.

    Decisions on players mentioned

    Larsson In: I think the seven seasons can come from 95, 99, 01, 02, 03, 04, and 06. There are more seasons that probably work as well. Thinking about him as a player who played in a small league for so long was interesting. But he had a long consistent career with high quality performances for his clubs in Europe and with Sweden. I think he is another example of the Viktor situation, to a lesser extent obvious with Viktor being borderline pantheon vs Larsson being borderline ATG, in that Larsson did everything he could with the opportunities afforded to him. He got Sweden to lots of big tournaments and scored in them, he played well in Europe, especially so against opponents from bigger clubs.

    Petit In: Initially I discounted him as a player who had this one late career peak in this era but probably did not have enough longevity (similar to Effenberg and Mihajlovic). I really underestimated his Monaco career. I did not realize he was first choice for the national team in the early mid 90s and would have started in the 94 WC if France qualified. With Monaco he made it to three European semifinals. Then you add that to his 98-00 run with Arsenal and France and I think you have an ATG player. For me his seven seasons at minimum are 92, 93, 94, 97, 98, 99, 00. You could also make a case for a number of other seasons.

    Mihajlovic In: As with Petit I initially thought that he was just a player who had this late peak with Lazio. Now that was definitely his peak but I think he has a lot more seasons that I thought that qualify for my seven season criteria. First upon review he was better and more important that I first thought for Red Star and Yugoslavia in 91 and 92. After a few disappointing years with Roma and no real national team opportunities I think he has a decent run with Sampdoria and being the centerpiece of the reassembled Yugoslavia team which had some really good results from 95-98. Then obviously the two great Lazio seasons in 99 and 00. I think you can make a case for at minimum 91, 92, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 00. There are even some later seasons you might be able to make a case for.

    Effenberg In: Again a player I initially discounted as only having the late peak. I think he has enough early seasons that qualify, but on the other hand he needed that late peak to make ATG, because before the 99-01 run with Bayern he was a player with a good individual level that had never really equated to any team success. He was good for Germany initially until the falling out in 94 (Euro 92 TOTT). He has good ratings with Fiorentina despite getting relegated. He has a good individual season in his early Bayern run but is also a part of their worst modern finish in 10th place. Minimum seasons 91, 92, 93, 95, 96, 99, 00, 01. Could also make a case for 97 and 98.

    Canizares Out: Just not enough strong seasons outside of the 00-04 run with Valencia.

    Makaay Out: I can only make a case for six seasons and I think that is pushing the limits as is with 00, 01, 03, 04, 05, 06 and with 01 and 06 of those seasons not being sure things. Him missing out on the national team is not a huge issue based on who was in front of him, just not enough maintained greatness at the levels he hit in 00, 03, and 05. When you miss out on the national team, the club career has to be extra good especially in Europe to overcome that, something that Effenberg achieved being that star outfield player of a two time CL finalist that Makaay fell a little short of.

    Jarni Out: He is not particularly close. Had a good run I was not aware of in 91, but does not succeed at a big club after multiple chances. He only has 91 and 96-98 in my eyes.

    Inzaghi Out: He has five strong seasons with 97, 98, 99, 00, and 03 but outside of that struggles to get games at AC Milan and with Italy.

    Crespo Out: Never really breaks through with the national team when he was actually at his peak (99-01) because of Batistuta. His club career just fall a little short in longevity. Bounces around a lot between the big clubs and struggles to get games at some of these clubs. I don't think there is a good case for him beyond five seasons with 99, 00, 01, 05, and 06.

    Hyppia Out: His initial run at Liverpool from 00-02 is strong. After that I am not sure how good he is in his next four years as starter. A lot of thing you read implicate that he struggled at times and he was only really a decisive player for those first three seasons.

    Vieri Out: He has a few really good years in 98, 02, and 03. In that middle run he loses his place in the national team. He also never has any big continental runs. I would say his limit for qualified seasons in at five with 98, 99, 02, 03, and 04.

    Valeron Out: There is not enough there outside the 02-05 run.

    Mendieta Out: Similar to Valeron only a four year run from 98-01.

    Kluivert Out: This one was very close he has a good case for six seasons in 96, 99, 00, 01, 02, and 03. The case for a seventh season is 98 based on what he did in the national team, but the club year was a big failure. He was good in 98 but I am nut sure if he was good/decisive enough in the WC to outweigh and entire disappointing club season. In 98 six dutch players get Ballon d'Or votes and he was not one of them.

    Elber Out: I addition to having a suspect peak level I have him at six strong seasons in 97, 99, 00, 01, 02, and 03. Maybe if he had not gotten hurt at Lyon and had a few more good seasons their that might change my mind.

    Angloma In: I know this may fall into the trap I was in before about finding a hidden gem, but I have always been intrigued by Angloma and impressed by his resume. Off the bat he is often discounted because he does not appear in the national team after 1996, but this is because he is stuck behind pantheon player in Thurman. He was first choice with he national team during the undefeated 92 Euro Qualifying run, Euro 92, would have been first choice if they qualified for WC 94, and did not lose his place in the team to Thurman until the second game of Euro 96. On a club side I find his career very impressive. His move to right back for PSG in 90/91 was a revelation leading to him being named the top right back in Europe/France by a number of publications (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jocelyn_Angloma). In 92 and 93 he wins two titles with Marseille and wins the European cup and is first choice for the national team. Then he moves to Torino for two year in 94/95 and 95/96. I can't find much information about his time there but he retains his first team status with France. Then he moves to Inter for one season where he makes another European final and is ESM team of the year. Then he moves to Valencia for a strong four season run where he makes two more CL finals and wins two more ESM TOTY awards. I think he has a solid minimum seven seasons of 91, 92, 93, 95, 97, 00, and 01. That is leaving out 96, 98 and 99 which are all full seasons and his performance seems to be good, and there could be a case made for them as part of the seven seasons of significant positive contribution. Obviously he has proven himself on a broader level having a decent run with the national team and being a very important part of four European finalists. Think about the idea of his peak and was he a driver of success vs a cog. I think looking at his ESM record compared to the other great fullbacks of his time is informative.

    I will list ESM TOTM(Month)/ESM TOTY for all the famous fullbacks of this time.

    Roberto Carlos 34/7
    Paulo Maldini 23/3
    Lillian Thurman 15/2
    Jocelyn Angloma 10/3
    Bixente Lizarazu 8/1
    Christian Panucci 6/1
    Ciro Ferrara 5/1
    Cafu 5/0
    Gary Neville 4/1
    Javier Zanetti 4/0
    Sergi 3/0
    Vincent Candela 3/0

    When you look at this list take into consideration ESM only rated season from 95/96 and later. So Maldini would likely surpass Roberto Carlos. Then you look at Thurman and Angloma, there is a really chance that if 91-93 were part of the ratings for Angloma he would pass Thurman in not only Team of the Year wins but also Team of the Month. Then you compare Angloma to players like Cafu, Lizarazu, and Zanetti he is far ahead of them despite the fact that he was the only one who has strong seasons that may have earned more ESM votes that were before the deadline. Angloma won all his votes from 96/97 to 00/01. This is not a case where he was the only good right back during this time and they had to give the votes to someone, where you see strange things like the huge number of PFA Team of the Year awards for Sansom. Angloma was going head to head with literally the best seasons of Cafu and Thurman from 97-01 (both are almost always in the top 5 right backs ever on any list you look at) and getting more votes than either of them (Thurman received 5 TOTM and 1 TOTY award from 02-05).

    Although this may be a little more of a unheralded pick, I think he is appropriate and meets all the criteria as a very underrated player who is an ATG.
     
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  5. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    That leaves two players I am still unsure of in Pires and Emerson. Any more thoughts on either would be appreciated.

    I feel like Pires was one his way to ATG and maybe even beyond before the injury in 02. He was running the games for Arsenal in 01/02 more than Bergkamp, Vieira, or Henry, coming centrally pulling all the string, and moving with such power and fluidity. He had also just fully broken through as the starter for France in 01 and he was so good in 01/02 I think France could have won another WC in 02 if he was present.

    But after the injury he is much for of a great supporting role with Arsenal rather than a leading one and is again more of a super sub than starter fro France. I think when you count his seasons there is enough good ones. That is not his issue.

    With Emerson I think he is underrated by Some here. He has more WC ratings by Kicker than Effenberg despite playing only three seasons there. He was set to captain Brazil to the WC title in 02 before he was injured right before the tournament, which would have greatly changed his profile. My main issue is I am not sure how good/important he was in a lot of the club seasons he played outside of Germany with Roma, Juventus, and Real. Any available ratings of information would be appreciated.
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm not against Angloma in theory. Obviously I didn't see a huge amount of him, but I noticed him as a quality right back in the earlier 90s I remember. I'm not really sure if the ESM inclusions might give an over-the-top impression of just how highly he was rated at Valencia but obviously I wouldn't dismiss them. Maybe when a team becomes high profile all of a sudden then their players will inevitably get that kind of attention in monthly votes, but not without playing well or very well!

    It's maybe strange I felt ATG for Grun was too much, but not Angloma, but probably I would see Angloma as closer to one of history's stand-out right backs than Grun as one of history's defenders and I suppose I'd doubting that Grun was ever a true key player for a club, although surely a good and versatile player at Parma as they were establishing themselves for example. Not to try to make Adams the second one I 'pick on' multiple times for negative comparisons/conclusions, but I guess from what I know and saw I'd not really rule out picking Grun as a 'better' player than him prime form to prime form. But at the same time Adams does have that legend status (having a statue at Arsenal for example) and somehow seems more suitable for ATG to me still.

    Was Stojkovic not the centerpiece (if designating one) to mid-late 90s Yugoslavia on their return, rather than Mijhailovic? I could be wrong but thought it was worth querying.

    And to re-mention another I'd previously argued for potentially, I do tend to think if Larsson gets in then so can Brian Laudrup. I guess the difference might be perceived to be European competition displays and effect, but I think Brian had some moments against quality teams in the CL that I've seen on video eg setting up chances that team-mates missed. If looking for a run with his team then there would be 90/91 I suppose too, to the semi-final. At Intl level I'd think Brian even has a bit of a better case than Larsson, who I don't suggest shouldn't qualify anyway just to clarify. Brian Laudrup was actually playing pretty well and being rated very well too for half a season in Serie A (again Vegan's thread confirms) although I know that it was half a season and his own form did tail off with his ratings too, and the team even went down (ultimately not because of lack of goals still though over the season, but conceding a lot). I'd not feel it would be right to include Petit but not Brian Laudrup, but I suppose it does come down to criteria and Tom you are obviously entitled to stick to your choices (of course Petit did do very well in general in the 1998 WC too). I'd also say Pires>Petit though, and generally would approve of Pires being in if as you say you're convinced he has enough years. The goals/assists totals were still very good in 03/04 and around then and he still played a key role in a way I think.
     
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  7. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Sorry for taking a while.

    I'd say the former for Grun and Katanec. Good, effective players, both versatile, but not great players in an all-time sense.

    Socrates I think of as a player whose stature seems to have grown in recent years thanks to his image/profile, rather than purely his ability. I don't particularly remember him standing out in 1986 though he was always a great player to watch in terms of his languid and elegant style.
     
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  8. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Absolutely ridiculous to drop Vieri and Crespo, two of the best strikers in their era. Especially when someone like Henrik Larsson sneaks in. Double-standards at play here again. Crespo's entire career gets carefully picked apart and it's decreed his Parma years weren't top class, but Larsson with his 10-goal season at friggin' Feyenoord is easily adequate? I'd also say Larsson is the absolute opposite of someone who did everything he could with the opportunities afforded. He could have moved to a bigger a club earlier (to sit on the bench and watch the Crespos and Vieris play), but he wanted to stay in his safe space and net easy ones against pub blokes from Motherwell and Inverness.

    I wouldn't use ESM TotM awards without closer scrutiny. You can get into those with two votes in a given month, and it was pretty common for defenders. Looking at total votes in 95-00, Angloma is right there behind Gary Neville and... Moreno Torricelli.

    For the record, total votes for strikers between 95-05:
    Vieri: 69
    Crespo: 42
    Larsson: 14
     
  9. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    This is not true, I rated his 99 and 00 seasons for Parma. Do you think 97 and 98 are worthy? He only scored 12 goals a piece for those seasons. Goalscoring is not everything, but for a player like Crespo, it is a lot, as he is not known as a player who contributes to the rest of the team game in a huge way.

    I rated one season of Larsson's with Feyenoord 94/95. This season he made the quarterfinals of the CWC and scored 4 goals including an away hat trick against Werder Bremen, the second place team from Germany. He also scored less with them as he was not a central striker, but more of a winger/wide forward who was a supporting player.

    Where do you find the more individual granular voting for the ESM?

    This is relevant, but also you need to take into account that voters are not nearly as exposed to seeing Larsson than they are Vieri and Crespo. The only time they see Larsson is in Europe.

    I personally think Larsson would have excelled at any top club. His movement, and team play would have done many top teams wonders.

    Make an argument for Crespo and Vieri in the context on my criteria. What are the seven strong seasons for either player?

    I feel like you enjoy coming out guns blazing "this is ridiculous!" but do not really address arguments in the context of what I am trying to do.

    For Crespo I identified 99, 00, 01, 05, and 06

    For Vieri I identified 98, 99, 02, 03, and 04
     
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  10. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    You are probably correct Stojkovic was the key player in the most obvious sense of being the #10 and the teams most famous player. They were both given basically every available cap from 94/95 to 99/00, Stojkovic 41 caps, Mihajlovic 44 caps. As you said the key difference is playing in Japan vs Italy. I was a bit hesitant to give Mihajlovic credit for his Sampdoria seasons, as the team is upper half of the table but never really beyond that, and only one run in Europe. But it is the best league int he world in the mid 90s and he has the extensive record with Yugoslavia, which is good results, but falling a little short in big tournaments.

    Now Stojkovic had the same record effectively with Yugoslavia, but is playing club football in Japan. The record for Yugoslavia is not overwhelmingly great. There are not team of the tournament type of performances for either player, but a solid track record on above average international play. Combine that with solid play int he best league int he world and in my mind that is a case of seasons of significant positive contribution. Combine a club career in Japan with that international record and I think it falls a little below the line I have in my head for a season of significant positive contribution.

    I agree that Laudrup has a better national team career than Larsson.

    Looking at Laudrup's possible seasons I would say

    90/91, 91/92 (mostly on the strength of the Euro performance), 94/95, 96/97 and 97/98 (mostly on the strength of the WC performance).

    To me that is a sure five solid seasons.

    The other options are:

    88/89 for his performances with the national team.

    89/90: His wiki says bundesliga team of the season from kicker, but the kicker ratings show him once international class and once "considered" so not a sure thing in my eyes with a mid table team.

    92/93: An interesting idea as I gave this season to Effenberg his teammate with a similar, record. Both played for Fiorentina who were relegated and played a full season of internationals. I will say this, Effenberg got this season by the skin of his teeth, and I am still not sure how I feel about it. What pushed me over the top was two things, one Effenberg I think was one of the top three rated players (maybe foreign players?) for the entire season, and was part of a very successful WC qualifying campaign. Laudrup was also well rated, but I do not believe as highly, and his WC qualifying campaign was less successful.

    95/96: This is another possibility, he missed some games in Scotland but seems to have been decisive when he played. He scores three goals in Euro 96 but the team goes out in the group stage. This season also contains the crucial 3-1 away win vs Belgium that qualifies them for the tournament.

    He needs two of these seasons to make seven. I think there are reasonable arguments for 90 and 96. Outside of that I think his career passes the other tests. Any more information about these possible seasons would help. There is no obvious black and white issue that excludes him. His club career was successful enough.

    I think Pires should probably be in, but I am not sure about the Pires vs Petit comparison. As I have said before in an absolute way Pires was better than Petit. But only looking at things from that angle for all of my players 80% and maybe more players would be attackers. Petit dominated his position with the national for more the Pires ever could, and had a great performance in a WC winning campaign. His career in France I think is also better before moving to England than Pires. Pires had a better run in England clearly.
     
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  11. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    I didn't come out all guns blazing. Just one tiny pistol at most.

    I painstakingly collected all the ESM votes personally, so no one would ever have to rely on the more unreliable TotM awards again. It was quite an adventure.

    I don't know what else to say about Vieri and Crespo. They were the best strikers in the world, and at least a class above Larsson. We don't need to speculate how Larsson would have done at a bigger club, because we saw it. A decent suber sub/rotation guy. We don't need to speculate how he would have done at a bigger club, because if Juve/Inter/Milan would have really wanted him, they would have gotten him. Instead they broke world transfer records on Vieri and Crespo. Look at ESM votes. BdO votes. NT-numbers, UCL-numbers. They're so clearly ahead in every conceivable metric it's not even funny.

    If anything, Larsson benefited rather than suffered from playing in the little leagues. His entire reputation is based on those 30 goal Celtic seasons, before the world discovered Kris Boyd and Scott McDonald could hit similar numbers. CWC QFs, please...
     
  12. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Tom, this is another great thread from you.

    As you explained well, there are some legendary players that don't meet the criterias established for ATG and Pantheon players. I just think that is "best to err on the side of caution".

    I mean, some posters could have discrepancies for no including some "legendary players" due to a very high criterias to meet. This is a better scenario, than relaxing the criterias to include some "world class" players that no necessarily are ATG material. Just like, why these are in, and those better are out?

    Just, my humble opinion.
     
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  13. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I think going back through one more time and being more strict is a good option.
     
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  14. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    Maybe, 1 more criteria could be added?

    Something like "Universal Impact/contribution". I mean, at the beggining and at Wartimes, "worldwide" meant a bit/more restrictive scenario to being a worldwide star. Unless, some player was "head and shoulders" above his peers, to pass this extra criteria.

    Anyways, I think, more strict rules will be better, even the number of ATG/Pantheon players falls.
     
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I suppose I just looked at the Stojkovic case a bit different, as I know that in Japan he was seen as an absolute star, the absolute star of that period I guess (with some other foreign imports in the league at the time), so although difficult to compare to players in mainstream top leagues I felt it would also be difficult not to credit him (in a general sense rather than proclaiming any of his seasons as among the best of all-time or something, but there is a lower threshold for your required 7 seasons compared to what's needed to get into the pantheon in that respect I suppose).

    For Yugoslavia I get the impression he was central (position wise but also in terms of the influence on the flow of the team and the creation of chances) to the team. I suppose as well as he was already doing in Japan and his history at Red Star etc, going into the period of Yugoslavia's return Savicevic would probably be viewed as the top star of the team, but maybe his impact/influence wasn't over Stojkovic's in the end. Stojkovic was captain too, for what that's worth - I suppose it adds to the impression he was leading the team, by example and setting the tempo etc as much as anything maybe.

    This video provides a good example perhaps, in a significant game against Euros finalists Czech Republic in WCQ:

    In this one against Spain the commentator does say that things go through him in effect I remember - as the video plays in the background I'm reminded the comment is "heartbeat of the team".


    I do remember being aware that he was considered a very good player in this period (although not impressing hugely in the 1998 WC ultimately, past his best by then probably), but yeah the Japan issue does make it difficult to gauge I suppose. I think his level of play was good enough (and maybe his role with Yugoslavia helps a bit in confirming) but I can understand your reservations, although I'd probably go with being the star in Japan above just another player at Sampdoria (maybe that's not a true representation but it seemed the best summarising comment and not really out of line with your own).

    It's difficult with all the lesser leagues when outstanding players are there I suppose, including the Scottish league in the cases of both Brian Laudrup and Larsson (who I view more favourably than Arriaga, but it took me a while to think that way I think, and I remember Michael Owen for whatever reason cast doubt on Larsson's credentials at one point by saying "It's only Scotland" in effect!). I think 95/96 seems in some ways like a 'down season' between 94/95 and 96/97 for Laudrup in Scotland but maybe it's just that Gascoigne in that particular season stood out more, Laudrup didn't score a lot and had some injury niggles etc. I don't think of it the same as the Stoichkov case for 95/96 because I remember Stoichkov's Parma form really not being good, and I don't think Laudrup's season was like that. He did end the season with a MOTM display in the Scottish Cup Final too, before playing very well and scoring a few nice goals in the Euros indeed:

    I think his role there was more advanced than in general for 95/96, although not as much as for Denmark in the Euros I'd say. I think it may have been like that at times during 96/97 too, but for example in this game he's in his normal free roaming right winger role moreso than supporting striker I think (you don't need examples for 96/97 anyway obviously but one thing I would say is for me it's difficult to imagine him in this kind of form not being exceptional in any league potentially, even if I'm sure it was easier for him in Scotland in such games than it would be in certain other games in certain other leagues).
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'd say maybe 1989/90 would possibly be my next idea for Laudrup, with his debut season in Germany (considered impressive in essence, even without great stats due to playing for a lower down club I suppose) combined with impressive games for Denmark, especially the two against Romania for example with goals and assists in that head to head, even though Romania went to the World Cup and Denmark didn't.

    I wouldn't have necessarily felt Petit over Pires in French football myself, but I could just not be informed enough about it and could be under-appreciating Petit's standing. I know Pires didn't quite reach the esteem he was held in at Arsenal, although did impress in some seasons and caught the eye despite things not going great overall in his Marseille time (he had his moments there though, like when scoring vs Chelsea I remember).
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Kicker seems to have removed the Teams of the Season (based on weekly inclusions in teams of the week IIRC) from it's website, but Laudrup was in the 1989/90 one apparently, so that goes in favour of that season for him too. The player profiles with average ratings in Bundesliga games, goals, and for since 1988/89 assists too, are still available of course, showing he did get 11 assists in 90/91 (though you did include that season anyway Tom).

    I'd think another couple could be borderline ok for him anyway: the Fiorentina one being debateable on the grounds you had in mind Tom, but also the one at Ajax, where he is credited with 8 assists (and as top assister of the team) here, to go along with his good goals total. It seems like a final revival of his career before he called it a day, and what footage I've seen of him there does seem pretty good:
    https://www.afc-ajax.info/en/season/1999-00

    I know we're not doing it using calendar years, but probably his case would be even better if so - 1989, 1990, 1992, 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997 would seem very passable to me I'd think, so not even needing to look into his Ajax time (which would give less of an option with calendar years anyway). So maybe that can lend weight to the benefit of the doubt.

    Anyway, it's your call Tom and I don't mind, but I thought I might as well complete things with this post as far as he's concerned. Obviously there are too many holes in his career path to even contemplate pantheon even if getting up to 10 years/seasons, so it's just a matter of making ATG or not (based on displays for Denmark getting him past the International games requirement if necessary since he didn't individually make the difference in terms of getting so far in 90/91 in the EC arguably to be fair - Thon rather than himself with an assist vs Porto in the QF for example).
     
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  18. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord


    Extensive attention on monday for Wim Suurbier in L'Equipe and Gazzetta (aged 75). Not bad for a non-rated player...

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/best-striker-at-their-prime.2092145/page-16#post-38688666

    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/is-england-a-world-power-in-soccer.1984541/page-26#post-32532509
    (and no, this is certainly not because of easy draws or whatever, on the contrary)

    I'm gone here.
     
  19. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I am going to stop my current run through by era at this point and make a run through the list with the idea of removing some of the more borderline players.

    Part of the issue many people have with players I am leaving out is comparing them to players I have slipped in under the line. I am going to go back and rethink my ATG criteria, or maybe just clarify it.
     
  20. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    Very good idea mate. It would be great if you put the corrected lists back.
     
  21. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #571 Tom Stevens, Jul 28, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
    I wanted to go back and revisit my criteria.

    One issue I have tried to resolve is creating a more concrete definition for a "season of significant positive contribution". Both criteria for All Time Great and the Pantheon rely on this term, All Time Great needing seven of these seasons while the Pantheon needs ten.

    As part of this effort I have made tried to make the idea of a significant or strong season more clearly defined and restrictive.

    From this point a season will qualify as "significant positive contribution" if it has positive contribution by the player in question at an international level (national team, or important club international/continental matches or tournament for a club like the European Cup). Generally if a player is a national team starter or important contributor over a season this will qualify a season unless the player/team perform particularly poorly. If the player is not a starter/important contributor for the national team, a significant run in the European Cup, Copa Libertadores, or a successful tour or other friendly matches could qualify the season. If a player is only recording achievement on a domestic level for a season, without national team or international/continental club contribution, to qualify the level of achievement must be high. The player needs to be one of the decisive players of the domestic campaign, and the league in which the domestic campaign takes place needs to be a league with a large talent pool. Some allowance will be made for player who are excluded from opportunities with the national team because they player abroad.

    All Time Great Criteria

    1) Longevity: Seven seasons of significant positive contribution. This can be reduced to six seasons for a player with an exceptionally high peak (players who have a peak that qualifies for the pantheon criteria).

    2) Peak: The player needs to be a significant driver of success. He needs to be the major reason his team was winning. Not just a good player on a great team.

    3) Career Achievement: The player needs to have significant achievements at both a domestic club level and an international level (country or club).

    Pantheon Criteria

    1) Longevity: Ten seasons of significant positive contribution.

    2) Peak: At their best they need to be considered the best player in the world by a significant portion of contemporary observes. As a general rule that there may be some exceptions to, an attacking player in contemporary times needs strong podium finishes in the Ballon d'Or and preferably a win. This criteria is slightly lowered for non-attacking players.

    3) Career Achievement: The player needs to be dominant and have high achievement at all levels available. For example, a contemporary player would need to have a great domestic career, a great career in the champions league, and a great career in the national team.

    4) Dominant Run: In addition to the previous longevity criteria, the players needs a run of four to five consecutive or near consecutive seasons where the player is a dominant force in world football, and clearly considered world class. This is a higher level of dominance/achievement then "significant positive contribution".

    5) Lack of Career Flaws: A catch all for other significant flaws in a players career that may cause me to think they are not a pantheon player. For example Sandor Kocsis inexplicably not being able to get playing time at Barcelona or Alain Giresse failing to earn any caps in the first two thirds of his career. Both players on a whole still passed the career achievement criteria for the pantheon. Despite the lack of caps early in his career Giresse still had a great career with the national team, and despite Kocsis struggles at Barcleona on a whole he still had a great club career. But in my eyes a pantheon player can't be a player that spends half of their career as a non-factor in the national team as pedestrian as France in the 1970s, or not be able to get playing time at a big club despite being relatively close to their prime in terms of age. Pantheon players should be relatively undeniable at all levels.

    I will repost my lists by era, country, and position after some reworking from previously posted additions with the new criteria that has caused both All Time Great and Pantheon qualifications to decrease.
     
  22. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    All players listed qualified as All Time Great, with a note for players who also qualified as Pantheon

    By Era

    1) Early Football ~ 1869-1883

    Bailey, Norman England Defensive Link
    Campbell, Charles Scotland Defensive Link
    Kinnaird, Arthur Scotland Attacking Link
    MacKinnon, Billy Scotland Forward Goalscorer
    McNeil, Henry Scotland Forward Playmaker

    2) Amateur/Professional Conflict ~ 1883-1890

    Arnott, Walter Scotland Back Supporting (Pantheon)
    Hunter, Archie Scotland Forward Goalscorer
    Ross, Jimmy Scotland Forward Goalscorer
    Ross, Nick Scotland Defensive Link
    Walters, Percy England Back Supporting

    3) Anglo-Scots ~ 1890-1897

    Bassett, Billy England Wide Forward
    Bell, Jack Scotland Wide Forward
    Cowan, James Scotland Defensive Link
    Doig, Ned Scotland Goalkeeper
    Doyle, Dan Scotland Back Marking
    Goodall, John England Forward Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Trainer, James Wales Goalkeeper
    Wilson, Hughie Scotland Midfield Supporting

    4) Golden Age of British Football ~ 1897-1904

    Bloomer, Steve England Forward Goalscorer
    Gibson, Neilly Scotland Midfield Supporting
    Needham, Ernest England Midfield Supporting
    Raisbeck, Alex Scotland Defensive Link
    Robertson, John Scotland Midfield Supporting
    Smith, Alex Scotland Wide Attacking Link
    Smith, Gilbert England Forward Playmaker
    Walker, Bobby Scotland Attacking Link (Pantheon)

    5) Professional Era ~ 1904-1915

    Aitken, Andy Scotland Midfield Supporting
    Crompton, Bob England Back Marking (Pantheon)
    Hardy, Sam England Goalkeeper
    McMenemy, Jimmy Scotland Attacking Link
    Meredith, Billy Wales Wide Forward (Pantheon)
    Middelboe, Nils Denmark Defensive Link
    Pennington, Jesse England Back Marking
    Piendibene, Jose Uruguay Forward Playmaker
    Roberts, Charlie England Defensive Link
    Roose, Leigh Wales Goalkeeper
    Schlosser, Imre Hungary Forward Goalscorer
    Thomson, Charlie Scotland Defensive Link

    6) World Football ~ 1915-1928

    Abegglen, Max Switzerland Forward Playmaker
    Andrade, Jose Leandro Uruguay Wide Defensive Link
    Baloncieri, Adolfo Italy Forward Playmaker
    Bidoglio, Ludovico Argentina Back Marking
    Blum, Josef Austria Back Supporting
    Denis, Harry Netherlands Back Marking
    Fogl, Karoly Hungary Back Marking
    Foglino, Alfredo Uruguay Back Marking
    Gallacher, Hughie Scotland Forward Goalscorer
    Horvath, Hans Austria Forward Playmaker
    Jackson, Alex Scotland Wide Forward
    Keenor, Fred Wales Midfield Supporting
    Kolenaty, Frantisek Czechoslovakia Midfield Supporting
    McMullan, Jimmy Scotland Midfield Supporting
    Morton, Alan Scotland Wide Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Nasazzi, Jose Uruguay Back Marking (Pantheon)
    Orth, Gyorgy Hungary Attacking Link
    Pesek, Karel Czechoslovakia Defensive Link (Pantheon)
    Petrone, Pedro Uruguay Forward Goalscorer
    Plattko, Ferenc Hungary Goalkeeper
    Romano, Angel Uruguay Forward Playmaker
    Rydell, Sven Sweden Forward Goalscorer
    Samitier, Josep Spain Attacking Link
    Scarone, Hectore Uruguay Forward Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Scott, Elisha Ireland Goalkeeper
    Swartenbroeks, Armand Belgium Back Supporting
    Takacs, Jozsef Hungary Forward Goalscorer
    Tarp, Fritz Denmark Back Supporting
    Tesoriere, Americo Argentina Goalkeeper
    Walker, Billy England Forward Playmaker
    Wesely, Ferdinand Austria Wide Attacking Link
    Zamora, Ricardo Spain Goalkeeper (Pantheon)

     
  23. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    By Era Continued

    7) Interwar Golden Age ~ 1928-1938

    Abegglen, Andre Switzerland Forward Goalscorer
    Bastin, Cliff England Wide Forward
    Braine, Raymond Belgium Forward Playmaker
    Brook, Eric England Wide Forward
    Caligaris, Umberto Italy Back Marking
    Castro, Hector Uruguay Forward Goalscorer
    Combi, Giampiero Italy Goalkeeper
    Crooks, Sammy England Wide Attacking Link
    Fernandez, Lorenzo Uruguay Midfield Supporting
    Ferrari, Giovanni Italy Forward Playmaker
    Goodall, Roy England Back Marking
    Gschweidl, Fritz Austria Forward Playmaker
    Hapgood, Eddie England Wide Back (Pantheon)
    James, Alex Scotland Attacking Link
    Janes, Paul Germany Back Supporting
    Jorgensen, Pauli Denmark Forward Goalscorer
    Juve, Jorgen Norway Attacking Link
    Kostalek, Josef Czechoslovakia Midfield Supporting
    Lazar, Gyula Hungary Midfield Supporting
    Lehner, Ernst Germany Wide Attacking Link
    Marjanovic, Blagoje Yugoslavia Forward Playmaker
    Mattler, Etienne France Back Marking
    McPhail, Bob Scotland Forward Playmaker
    Meazza, Giuseppe Italy Forward Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Minella, Jose Maria Argentina Midfield Supporting
    Minelli, Severino Switzerland Back Supporting
    Monti, Luis Argentina Defensive Link
    Monzeglio, Eraldo Italy Back Marking
    Nausch, Walter Austria Midfield Playmaker
    Nejedly, Oldrich Czechoslovakia Forward Playmaker
    Orsi, Raimundo Argentina Wide Forward (Pantheon)
    Peucelle, Carlos Argentina Wide Attacking Link
    Planicka, Frantisek Czechoslovakia Goalkeeper (Pantheon)
    Puc, Antonin Czechoslovakia Wide Forward
    Quincoces, Jacinto Spain Back Marking
    Regueiro, Luis Spain Forward Playmaker
    Rosetta, Virginio Italy Back Supporting
    Sarosi, Gyorgi Hungary Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Sesta, Karl Austria Back Marking
    Silny, Josef Czechoslovakia Forward Goalscorer
    Sindelar, Matthias Austria Forward Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Smistik, Josef Austria Defensive Link
    Smit, Kick Netherlands Forward Goalscorer
    Svoboda, Frantisek Czechoslovakia Forward Playmaker
    Szepan, Fritz Germany Attacking Link
    Toldi, Geza Hungary Forward Goalscorer
    Turay, Jozsef Hungary Attacking Link
    van Heel, Puck Netherlands Midfield Supporting
    Varallo, Francisco Argentina Forward Goalscorer
    Zischek, Karl Austria Wide Forward
    Andreolo, Michele Uruguay Defensive Link
    Biro, Sandor Hungary Back Marking
    Piola, Silvio Italy Forward Goalscorer

    8) WWII and South American Golden Age ~ 1938-1948

    Benbarek, Larbi France Attacking Link
    Biavati, Amedeo Italy Wide Attacking Link
    Bican, Josef Czechoslovakia Forward Goalscorer
    Bickel, Alfred Switzerland Wide Forward
    Carey, Johnny Ireland Wide Back (Pantheon)
    Carlsson, Henry Sweden Forward Playmaker
    Carter, Raich England Forward Playmaker
    Darui, Julien France Goalkeeper
    Decker, Karl Austria Forward Goalscorer
    Domingos da Guia Brazil Back Supporting
    Erico, Arsenio Paraguay Forward Goalscorer
    Fernandez, Teodoro Peru Forward Goalscorer
    Gambetta, Schubert Uruguay Wide Defensive Link
    Garcia, Enrique Argentina Wide Forward
    Gren, Gunnar Sweden Forward Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Kupfer, Andreas Germany Midfield Supporting
    Labruna, Angel Argentina Forward Goalscorer
    Langara, Isidro Spain Forward Goalscorer
    Lawton, Tommy England Forward Goalscorer
    Lenstra, Abe Netherlands Forward Playmaker
    Leonidas da Silva Brazil Forward Goalscorer
    Livingstone, Sergio Chile Goalkeeper
    Loik, Ezio Italy Attacking Link
    Loustau, Felix Argentina Wide Attacking Link
    Martino, Rinaldo Argentina Forward Playmaker
    Matthews, Stanley England Wide Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Mazzola, Valentino Italy Attacking Link
    Mendez, Norberto Argentina Forward Playmaker
    Mermans, Jef Belgium Forward Goalscorer
    Moreno, Jose Manuel Argentina Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Nilsson, Erik Sweden Wide Back
    Pedernera, Adolfo Argentina Attacking Link
    Pontoni, Rene Argentina Forward Playmaker
    Porta, Roberto Uruguay Attacking Link
    Rava, Pietro Italy Back Marking
    Rudas, Ferenc Hungary Wide Defensive Link
    Salomon, Jose Argentina Back Marking
    Sastre, Antonio Argentina Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Varela, Severino Uruguay Forward Goalscorer
    Walker, Tommy Scotland Forward Playmaker
    Walter, Fritz Germany Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Zsengeller, Gyula Hungary Forward Goalscorer

    9) Post War ~ 1948-1956

    Ademir de Menezes Brazil Forward Goalscorer
    Andrade, Víctor Rodríguez Uruguay Wide Defensive Link
    Bauer Brazil Midfield Supporting
    Beara, Vladimir Yugoslavia Goalkeeper
    Bobek, Stjepan Yugoslavia Forward Playmaker
    Boniperti, Giampiero Italy Forward Goalscorer
    Bozsik, Jozsef Hungary Midfield Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Cajkovski, Zlatko Yugoslavia Midfield Supporting
    Coppens, Rik Belgium Forward Goalscorer
    Czibor, Zoltan Hungary Wide Forward
    Fatton, Jacques Switzerland Wide Forward
    Finney, Tom England Wide Forward
    Grosics, Gyula Hungary Goalkeeper
    Hanappi, Gerhard Austria Attacking Link
    Happel, Ernst Austria Back Supporting
    Hidegkuti, Nandor Hungary Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Jair Da Rosa Brazil Forward Playmaker
    Julinho Botelho Brazil Wide Attacking Link
    Kocsis, Sandor Hungary Forward Goalscorer
    Kubala, Laszlo Hungary Forward Playmaker
    Liddell, Billy Scotland Wide Forward
    Liedholm, Nils Sweden Attacking Link
    Lofthouse, Nat England Forward Goalscorer
    Maspoli, Roque Uruguay Goalkeeper
    Míguez, Oscar Uruguay Forward Goalscorer
    Mortensen, Stan England Forward Goalscorer
    Nordahl, Gunnar Sweden Forward Goalscorer (Pantheon)
    Nyers, Istvan Hungary Wide Forward
    Ocwirk, Ernst Austria Midfield Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Praest, Karl Aage Denmark Wide Attacking Link
    Puskas, Ferenc Hungary Forward Goalscorer (Pantheon)
    Rahn, Helmut Germany Wide Forward
    Ramallets, Antoni Spain Goalkeeper
    Rijvers, Kees Netherlands Attacking Link
    Rossi, Nestor Argentina Midfield Supporting
    Schafer, Hans Germany Wide Forward
    Schiaffino, Juan Alberto Uruguay Forward Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Skoglund, Lennart Sweden Wide Attacking Link
    Stankovic, Branko Yugoslavia Wide Defensive Link
    Varela, Obdulio Uruguay Midfield Supporting (Pantheon)
    Vukas, Bernard Yugoslavia Forward Playmaker
    Wilkes, Faas Netherlands Forward Playmaker
    Wright, Billy England Defensive Link
    Young, George Scotland Wide Back
    Zarra, Telmo Spain Forward Goalscorer
    Zeman, Walter Austria Goalkeeper
    Zizinho Brazil Attacking Link
     
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  24. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    By Era Continued

    10) Rise of Continental Competitions ~ 1956-1963

    Aguas, Jose Portugal Forward Goalscorer
    Blanchflower, Danny Ireland Midfield Playmaker
    Cervato, Sergio Italy Wide Defensive Link
    Charles, John Wales Forward Goalscorer
    Di Stefano, Alfredo Argentina Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Didi Brazil Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Djalma Santos Brazil Wide Back (Pantheon)
    Evaristo Brazil Forward Goalscorer
    Garrincha Brazil Wide Attacking Link
    Gento, Francisco Spain Wide Attacking Link
    Gilmar Brazil Goalkeeper
    Goncalves, Nestor Uruguay Midfield Supporting
    Greaves, Jimmy England Forward Goalscorer
    Hamrin, Kurt Sweden Wide Forward
    Ivanov, Valentin Soviet Union Forward Goalscorer
    Johansson, Ake Sweden Back Supporting
    Jones, Cliff Wales Wide Forward
    Jonquet, Robert France Back Supporting
    Jose Altafini Brazil Forward Goalscorer
    Joya, Juan Peru Wide Forward
    Jurion, Jef Belgium Attacking Link
    Jusufi, Fahrudin Yugoslavia Wide Defensive Link
    Kolev, Ivan Bulgaria Wide Forward
    Kopa, Raymond France Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Mackay, Dave Scotland Midfield Supporting
    Masopust, Josef Czechoslovakia Midfield Playmaker (Pantheon)
    McIlroy, Jimmy Ireland Attacking Link
    Moulijn, Coen Netherlands Wide Attacking Link
    Netto, Igor Soviet Union Midfield Playmaker
    NIlton Santos Brazil Wide Defensive Link (Pantheon)
    Novak, Ladislav Czechoslovakia Wide Back
    Pepe Brazil Wide Forward
    Piantoni, Roger France Forward Playmaker
    Pluskal, Svatopluk Czechoslovakia Defensive Link
    Popluhar, Jan Czechoslovakia Back Supporting
    Sanchez, Leonel Chile Wide Forward
    Sandor, Karoly Hungary Wide Forward
    Santamaria, Jose Uruguay Back Marking
    Seeler, Uwe Germany Forward Goalscorer
    Sekularac, Dragoslav Yugoslavia Attacking Link
    Sivori, Omar Argentina Forward Playmaker
    Spencer, Alberto Ecuador Forward Goalscorer
    Szymaniak, Horst Germany Midfield Supporting
    Tichy, Lajos Hungary Forward Goalscorer
    van der Hart, Cor Netherlands Back Supporting
    Vincent, Jean France Wide Forward
    Yashin, Lev Soviet Union Goalkeeper (Pantheon)
    Zebec, Branko Yugoslavia Attacking Link
    Zito Brazil Midfield Supporting

    11) British and Italian Dominance in the 60s ~ 1963-1970

    Albert, Florian Hungary Forward Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Amancio Spain Wide Forward
    Artime, Luis Argentina Forward Goalscorer
    Asparuhov, Georgi Bulgaria Forward Goalscorer
    Augusto, Jose Portugal Wide Forward
    Ball, Alan England Midfield Supporting
    Banks, Gordon England Goalkeeper
    Bene, Ferenc Hungary Forward Goalscorer
    Burgnich, Tarcisio Italy Wide Back
    Carlos Alberto Brazil Wide Defensive Link
    Charlton, Bobby England Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Charlton, Jack England Back Marking
    Chislenko, Igor Soviet Union Wide Forward
    Coluna, Mario Portugal Midfield Supporting
    Cubilla, Luis Uruguay Wide Attacking Link
    Dzajic, Dragan Yugoslavia Wide Attacking Link
    Eusebio Portugal Forward Goalscorer (Pantheon)
    Facchetti, Giacinto Italy Wide Defensive Link (Pantheon)
    Best, George Ireland Wide Attacking Link
    Gerson Brazil Midfield Playmaker
    Greig, John Scotland Defensive Link
    Haller, Helmut Germany Attacking Link
    Iribar, José Angel Spain Goalkeeper
    Israel, Rinus Netherlands Back Supporting
    Jairzinho Brazil Wide Forward (Pantheon)
    Johnstone, Jimmy Scotland Wide Attacking Link
    Khurtsilava, Murtaz Soviet Union Back Supporting
    Kindvall, Ove Sweden Forward Goalscorer
    Mazurkiewicz, Ladislao Uruguay Goalkeeper
    Law, Denis Scotland Forward Playmaker
    Lubanski, Wlodzimierz Poland Forward Goalscorer
    Marzolini, Silvio Argentina Wide Back
    Mazzola, Sandro Italy Forward Playmaker (Pantheon)
    McNeill, Billy Scotland Back Marking
    Meszoly, Kalman Hungary Defensive Link
    Moore, Bobby England Defensive Link
    Overath, Wolfgang Germany Midfield Playmaker
    Pele Brazil Forward Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Perfumo, Roberto Argentina Back Marking
    Peters, Martin England Wide Attacking Link
    Rattin, Antonio Argentina Midfield Supporting
    Riva, Luigi Italy Wide Forward
    Rivera, Gianni Italy Attacking Link
    Rocha, Pedro Uruguay Attacking Link
    Schnellinger, Karl-Heinz Germany Wide Back (Pantheon)
    Schulz, Willi Germany Back Marking
    Shesternyov, Albert Soviet Union Back Marking
    Simoes, Antonio Portugal Wide Attacking Link
    Suarez, Luis Spain Midfield Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Tostao Brazil Forward Playmaker
    Van Himst, Paul Belgium Forward Playmaker
    Van Moer, WIlfried Belgium Midfield Supporting
    Vasovic, Velibor Yugoslavia Defensive Link
    Voronin, Valery Soviet Union Midfield Supporting
    Weber, Wolfgang Germany Back Marking
    Wilson Piazza Brazil Defensive Link

    12) Dutch and German Dominance in the 70s ~ 1970-1976

    Beckenbauer, Franz Germany Defensive Link (Pantheon)
    Benetti, Romeo Italy Midfield Supporting
    Blokhin, Oleg Soviet Union Wide Forward
    Bonev, Hristo Bulgaria Attacking Link
    Bremner, Billy Scotland Midfield Supporting
    Chumpitaz, Hector Peru Back Marking
    Croy, Jurgen Germany Goalkeeper
    Cruyff, Johan Netherlands Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Cubillas, Teofilo Peru Attacking Link
    Deyna, Kazimierz Poland Midfield Playmaker
    Dobias, Karol Czechoslovakia Wide Back
    Figueroa, Elias Chile Back Supporting (Pantheon)
    Hellstrom, Ronnie Sweden Goalkeeper
    Heynckes, Jupp Germany Forward Goalscorer
    Hughes, Emlyn England Defensive Link
    Jansen, Wim Netherlands Midfield Supporting
    Jennings, Pat Ireland Goalkeeper
    Jensen, Henning Denmark Forward Playmaker
    Keizer, Piet Netherlands Wide Attacking Link
    Kolotov, Viktor Soviet Union Midfield Supporting
    Lambert, Raoul Belgium Forward Goalscorer
    Lato, Grzegorz Poland Wide Forward
    Luis Pereira Brazil Back Supporting
    Maier, Sepp Germany Goalkeeper (Pantheon)
    Muller, Gerd Germany Forward Goalscorer (Pantheon)
    Neeskens, Johan Netherlands Midfield Supporting
    Netzer, Gunter Germany Attacking Link
    Piazza, Osvaldo Argentina Back Supporting
    Pirri Spain Defensive Link
    Rensenbrink, Rob Netherlands Forward Playmaker
    Rivellino Brazil Midfield Playmaker
    Rudakov, Yevgeniy Soviet Union Goalkeeper
    Skoblar, Josip Yugoslavia Forward Goalscorer
    Suurbier, Wim Netherlands Wide Back
    Tresor, Marius France Back Supporting
    Van Hanegem, Willem Netherlands Midfield Playmaker
    Viktor, Ivo Czechoslovakia Goalkeeper (Pantheon)
    Vogts, Berti Germany Wide Back (Pantheon)
     
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  25. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    By Era Continued

    13) Zico, Platini, and English Club Dominance ~ 1976-1986

    Amoros, Manuel France Wide Defensive Link
    Ardiles, Osvaldo Argentina Midfield Playmaker
    Bettega, Roberto Italy Forward Goalscorer
    Bonhof, Rainer Germany Midfield Supporting
    Boniek, Zbigniew Poland Forward Playmaker
    Bossis, Maxime France Wide Defensive Link
    Brady, Liam Ireland Midfield Playmaker
    Breitner, Paul Germany Midfield Playmaker
    Briegel, Hans-Peter Germany Wide Defensive Link
    Cabrini, Antonio Italy Wide Defensive Link
    Camacho, Jose Antonio Spain Wide Back
    Causio, Franco Italy Wide Attacking Link
    Ceulemans, Jan Belgium Attacking Link
    Chivadze, Aleksandre Soviet Union Defensive Link
    Clemence, Ray England Goalkeeper
    Conti, Bruno Italy Wide Attacking Link
    Dalglish, Kenny Scotland Forward Playmaker
    Dasaev, Rinat Soviet Union Goalkeeper (Pantheon)
    Demyanenko, Anatoliy Soviet Union Wide Defensive Link
    Elkjaer Larsen, Preben Denmark Forward Goalscorer
    Falcao Brazil Midfield Supporting (Pantheon)
    Fillol, Ubaldo Argentina Goalkeeper (Pantheon)
    Forster, Karlheinz Germany Back Marking
    Gentile, Claudio Italy Wide Back
    Gerets, Eric Belgium Wide Back
    Giresse, Alain France Attacking Link
    Gordillo, Rafael Spain Wide Defensive Link
    Haan, Arie Netherlands Midfield Playmaker
    Hansen, Alan Scotland Defensive Link
    Hoddle, Glenn England Midfield Playmaker
    Junior Brazil Wide Defensive Link
    Kaltz, Manfred Germany Wide Defensive Link
    Keegan, Kevin England Forward Goalscorer
    Kempes, Mario Argentina Forward Goalscorer
    Krankl, Hans Austria Forward Goalscorer
    Krol, Ruud Netherlands Defensive Link (Pantheon)
    Lerby, Soren Denmark Midfield Supporting
    Magath, Felix Germany Midfield Playmaker
    Nyilasi, Tibor Hungary Attacking Link
    Olsen, Morten Denmark Defensive Link
    Passarella, Daniel Argentina Back Supporting
    Pezzey, Bruno Austria Defensive Link
    Pfaff, Jean Marie Belgium Goalkeeper
    Platini, Michel France Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Prohaska, Herbert Austria Midfield Playmaker
    Rep, Johnny Netherlands Wide Forward
    Robson, Bryan England Midfield Supporting
    Rummenigge, Karl-Heinz Germany Forward Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Rush, Ian Wales Forward Goalscorer
    Schumacher, Harald Germany Goalkeeper
    Schuster, Bernd Germany Midfield Playmaker
    Scirea, Gaetano Italy Defensive Link
    Shilton, Peter England Goalkeeper (Pantheon)
    Simonsen, Allan Denmark Forward Playmaker
    Souness, Graeme Scotland Midfield Supporting
    Stielike, Uli Germany Defensive Link
    Tardelli, Marco Italy Midfield Supporting
    Tigana, Jean France Midfield Supporting
    Toninho Cerezo Brazil Midfield Supporting
    van de Kerkhof, Willy Netherlands Midfield Supporting
    Vercauteren, Franky Belgium Wide Attacking Link
    Zico Brazil Forward Playmaker (Pantheon)
    Zoff, Dino Italy Goalkeeper (Pantheon)

    14) Maradona and second Dutch/German Clash ~ 1986-1992

    Baresi, Franco Italy Back Supporting (Pantheon)
    Bergomi, Giuseppe Italy Wide Back
    Bratseth, Rune Norway Back Marking
    Brehme, Andreas Germany Wide Defensive Link
    Butragueno, Emilio Spain Forward Goalscorer
    Careca Brazil Forward Goalscorer
    Donadoni, Roberto Italy Wide Attacking Link
    Francescoli, Enzo Uruguay Forward Playmaker
    Gullit, Ruud Netherlands Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Hassler, Thomas Germany Attacking Link
    Hysen, Glenn Sweden Back Marking
    Koeman, Ronald Netherlands Back Supporting (Pantheon)
    Kohler, Jurgen Germany Back Marking
    Lineker, Gary England Forward Goalscorer
    Maradona, Diego Argentina Attacking Link (Pantheon)
    Matthaus, Lothar Germany Midfield Supporting (Pantheon)
    Michel Spain Wide Attacking Link
    Papin, Jean-Pierre France Forward Goalscorer
    Preud'homme, Michel Belgium Goalkeeper
    Ricardo Gomes Brazil Back Supporting
    Rijkaard, Frank Netherlands Defensive Link (Pantheon)
    Ruggeri, Oscar Argentina Back Marking
    Sanchez, Hugo Mexico Forward Goalscorer
    Southall, Neville Wales Goalkeeper
    van Basten, Marco Netherlands Forward Goalscorer
    van Breukelen, Hans Netherlands Goalkeeper
    Vialli, Gianluca Italy Forward Goalscorer
    Vierchowod, Pietro Italy Back Marking
    Voller, Rudi Germany Forward Goalscorer
    Waddle, Chris England Wide Attacking Link
    Zenga, Walter Italy Goalkeeper
    Zubizarreta, Andoni Spain Goalkeeper

    15) Mid 90s Transition ~ 1992-1998

    Albertini, Demetrio Italy Midfield Playmaker
    Baggio, Roberto Italy Forward Playmaker
    Baía, Vítor Portugal Goalkeeper
    Batistuta, Gabriel Argentina Forward Goalscorer
    Bebeto Brazil Forward Playmaker
    Bergkamp, Dennis Netherlands Forward Playmaker
    Blanc, Laurent France Back Supporting
    Blind, Danny Netherlands Back Marking
    Chilavert, Jose Luis Paraguay Goalkeeper
    Costa, Rui Portugal Attacking Link
    de Boer, Frank Netherlands Back Supporting
    Desailly, Marcel France Defensive Link (Pantheon)
    Deschamps, Didier France Midfield Supporting
    Dunga Brazil Midfield Supporting
    Ferrara, Ciro Italy Wide Back
    Giggs, Ryan Wales Wide Attacking Link
    Hagi, Gheorghe Romania Attacking Link
    Hierro, Fernando Spain Defensive Link
    Klinsmann, Jurgen Germany Forward Goalscorer
    Laudrup, Michael Denmark Attacking Link
    Maldini, Paolo Italy Wide Back (Pantheon)
    Moller, Andreas Germany Attacking Link
    Pagliuca, Gianluca Italy Goalkeeper
    Romario Brazil Forward Goalscorer
    Sammer, Matthias Germany Defensive Link
    Savicevic, Dejan Yugoslavia Attacking Link
    Schmeichel, Peter Denmark Goalkeeper (Pantheon)
    Shearer, Alan England Forward Goalscorer
    Simeone, Diego Argentina Midfield Supporting
    Stoichkov, Hristo Bulgaria Wide Forward
    Weah, George Liberia Forward Playmaker
     
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