A list of all time great players, and the pantheon of greatest ever

Possibly 82/83 would be a next port of call, as I think he immediately made a good impression in Italy (Vegan's thread can verify it ratings wise I think), but like I say it's not a complete season for him games wise. 80/81 is a bit similar, but given he didn't always play up front (sometimes as winger) and did set up some goals as well as score them maybe it's not to be completely ruled out. Otherwise maybe going right back to the beginning at Birmingham when he was a teenager would be the option I suppose.

Yeah, I would say Grun was among the best Belgian players in the 1994 WC, but on the other hand even in the defensive section it might be that Preud'homme and Albert stood out more. I'm not confident in saying it but I'd think he wasn't seen as one of Parma's absolute top and most valued players overall. I think Katanec was a good player who was useful in midfield or as left back, but if the standard is to be more of a key player than a Wijnaldum or a Henderson now, I would doubt he'd be regarded like that at Sampdoria.

 

Yeah, I guess with Baia at Barcelona I'd possibly question an idea about him being a main reason behind success, but I guess maybe that's not necessary with the criteria if he's a main reason elsewhere (basically at Porto). It could be relevant if it took 96/97 off his list though I suppose.

For Socrates, yeah maybe it'd come down to personal opinion about just how well he played in the 1986 WC then (but to form your own would take watching several matches, even if they are available on Footballia.net....and if you set the tone by deciding to watch as much as possible it will be hard to do it for every player you'd want or need to I suppose!). I did remember this though, that shows he seems to have been recognised as a top Brazilian player of the 70s I think (and that would hint at it being more than for 1979 alone I guess - that said, in effect it's only two votes going to him even if for actual top player and enough to put him joint 3rd in the vote without anything from the 80s):

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Sorry, no, 79 (1978/79) would be my next port of call I think! I'd overlooked you'd not listed it, even though I can see why in a way. I do remember reading in a book about that Forest season some very complimentary descriptions of his play (setting goals up and scoring them) in a few league games getting towards the end of the season when he was helping Forest to start scoring several goals in a few games, and obviously there is the European Cup Final in which he was arguably MOTM too (some guy on here linked to a webpage with some reports/ratings to back that up - it was a site with various ratings/reports from big or significant games but I'm not sure which thread it was on now) as well as scoring the winning goal, and in the Onze voting he was placed high up for 1979 even if it's in theory a calendar year award.

I remember he plays well in an FA Cup game vs Ipswich in 80/81 I think for example.

 

Here is that Forest-Ipswich FA Cup game actually - I see it was uploaded in this quite long highlight form of 20+ minutes recently:


Other than Francis, Thijssen and Muhren are playing too of course, but it's not to say it would be them on a great day or even a typical day that season necessarily (I suspect not particularly from memory but could be wrong).

 

Irwin is an interesting case. I can see why he fails your criteria, but Sir Alex himself had this to say about his all-time XI:

“Honestly, I would say Denis Irwin would be the one certainty to get in the team. I called him an ‘eight out of 10’. At Highbury in one game, he had a bad pass back in the last minute and [Dennis] Bergkamp came in and scored. After the game the press said: ‘You must be disappointed in that pass back.’ I said: ‘Well, one mistake in 10 years isn’t bad. He was an unbelievable player.”

I think this is because a manager like Alex Ferguson, whose method relies on strong leadership to demand the best out of his players, will have a bias towards ultra-consistent model-professionals like Irwin.

Someone like Irwin blurs the line of "cogs" and "drivers". His position and on-field performance may seem like a high-level cog (the 8/10 comment), but his role in the team as a whole was very much a driver, as he was one of the foundational pieces for Ferguson's team that allowed everyone else to flourish.

 

Yeah, I suppose it becomes hard when using limited footage, as we know players can appear different on different days even now (Messi even for example), but it's still interesting to see.

I guess at times a Muhren or a Robertson could seem somewhat ordinary, because they don't have an abundance of pace and don't seem able to run through a team from one box to the other or something, so their class is noticeable when they deliver something great (Robertson in his own way was certainly a good dribbler though). I think 80/81 in general wasn't Robertson's best year though probably. I'd be kind of accepting his longevity isn't there for your project really anyway, but watching him vs AEK Athens from 78/79, or watching I Believe in Miracles which has a few rarer assists from him after dribbles and crosses down the left would give a better impression of why he was held in such high regard I think. He did have a knack of scoring quality goals in FA Cup games in other years though too:

Gorgeous John Robertson curler as Forest win 4-1 at Leeds in the FA Cup 3rd round in 1980 #nffc @DTguardian @NottmForestNews pic.twitter.com/yRbpH57JVx

— @forgottengoals (@forgottengoals) January 26, 2019

(I think Francis played well in that game as well IIRC, as it was on Youtube in short highlight form at one point, but you already include 79/80 as a potential plus year for him anyway of course, with the European Cup a factor I guess)



This game was referred to in the Forest-Ipswich commentary I think, so in he exact same period of the season, and obviously it's a more notable one where Muhren delivers things to back up his reputation more for example (as opposed to just one or two glimpses with nice passes played first time in the Forest footage but nothing really to make him stand out so much)


I'm a bit young to have a great idea about Muhren/Thijssen from memory, but the comments here from an Ipswich fan when putting them both in the All-Time XI (ok, I know it's Ipswich a relatively small club without sustained success or a plethora of great players) sum up how they were seen I think: Muhren gets "I've never seen such a sublime passer of the ball" as a comment while Thijssen has "Thijssen was extraordinary when running with the ball. It literally seemed to be attached to his feet."
(There are some videos IIRC, of a documentary style, with some footage to help show those things, certainly Thijssen's close control, on Youtube too).
https://www.eadt.co.uk/sport/terry-hunt-all-time-ipswich-town-xi-1-6642389
I get the impression Muhren did dip in form/reputation at Man Utd as he got into his 30s (but Bryan Robson did still comment on his quality passing recently on the radio, as well as his nice character which I know is not a part of the criteria of course...although I had the same impression about Wijnaldum for example recently and it's nice when some 'good guys' get recognition I guess!), before rediscovering very good form at a late age at Ajax, and obviously playing a part in Euro 88 (including with a cross which perhaps is under-rated to allow Van Basten the famous volley - maybe there is an example of a replica on that Ipswich-St Etienne video or maybe it was only on a documentary video as I can't be sure if it was an assists or just a chance created).

 

Hansen was also a much bigger failure for Scotland than Barnes ever was for England. I'm just saying.

Arguments for Robson? He was the best player in the world in his position in the mid-80s. That's my argument.

Bucking the retroactive online reputation, yes. Not the actual reputation during his playing days. Anyway, looking at all the other names who are there, I agree Francescoli is an acceptable nomination. I won't dispute that.

Disregarding some of the easy to spot tournament votes, I think the BdO is a very good indicator of who the actual top dogs were in any given era.

 

They dominated because they played for much better teams. Put Robson in to raise trophies with Platini and suddenly it looks a whole lot different. Souness was the man as long as he was playing for Liverpool. Once he has to rely on the fine record of Sampdoria and Scotland it's like he fell off a cliff in terms of recognition.

Anyway, the point wasn't to make it into a pissing contest between who gets to be the man. Being third best would still be enough for ATG level, I'd think. Once again the BdO votes are a very good indicator of what's going on.

 

In 2003 Bobby Robson was asked to name the best English player he ever worked with during his long career:

Bryan Robson. He was combative, massively competitive, would go into danger, only saw the ball. That's why he always picked up injuries. He could score goals, make goals and defend goals - he was a three-in-one player.

A year earlier Sir Alex Ferguson was asked who had been his most influential player at Old Trafford:

Some players come along once in a lifetime and I am fortunate that, in Keane and Bryan Robson, I've had both of them. Robson was different to Roy, but they shared a common denominator, which was a driving force in themselves.

Such was Bobby Robson's faith in his namesake that he quite often picked him when not fully fit. Purely for England he is arguably the best player since Charlton.

Bryan Robson's reputation in club football suffers because Manchester United's golden age began virtually as soon as he stopped playing. It also has to be said that he was part of a drinking culture at Old Trafford that prevented the team fulfilling its potential.

As @Ariaga II has mentioned, there was a stark contrast between key Liverpool players' performance for their club and for their country, which makes them hard to rank. Dalglish, Hansen and Souness all disappointed for Scotland when it mattered, as did Barnes for England. Willie Miller of Aberdeen was a much better centre-back for Scotland than Hansen, and often played instead of him.

 

Captain Marvel, as he was known, largely escaped criticism for England's lack of progress in tournaments, unlike successors such as Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney.

This was partly due to his manager's effusive praise. Partly because he played 90 times for England, usually to a high standard and mostly outside tournaments. He was one of those rare players whose presence made an international team look better, even when he wasn't fully fit.

 

Those seem to make sense Tom I think. I can understand it's always tempting though to want to find 'hidden gems' when doing something like this, and there is nothing wrong with at least looking into a Valdo or a Grun (both quality players in their own way, in general terms - no problem to call them 'international class' or even verging on 'world class' maybe) but I suppose the ATG designation shouldn't be too easy to receive and there can be conflict when some others notable players don't get it and under the radar players like this would.

I could understand what you were saying about Robson in some respects, but still it probably is difficult not to include him all in all I think indeed, given his longevity isn't really lacking and he was a quite famous player, considered a star in his era and in some years he was getting continental recognition from Guerin Sportivo polls as well as in the Ballon d'Or. Whether I'd come down on the side of Hoddle personally in a straight comparison is feasible I think (maybe siding with the narrative England should have favoured guile over grit, although maybe in retrospect both of them in midfield with Wilkins sitting behind them might have been worth a try in the early to mid 80s, not to say that would have meant inevitable success or that Robson wouldn't end up injured anyway in 86 still!), but I think Robson had enough to make it in. If Barnes is unlucky that's unfortunate, but I guess I can understand you apply your criteria according to what's proven rather than making positive/generous assumptions about how he'd do in European competition in his familiar Liverpool team that suited him (and that you see his England stand-out moments as too fleeting to count towards a pass as an International player).

I'm not fully sure, mainly because I'm just a bit too young indeed, how I'd call Muhren vs Thijssen but I can understand your logic anyway, and it's obviously your call at the end. There could be other things I'd err towards changing if it was my list with your criteria (I'd be feeling I could make it work to include Stojkovic for example like I hinted at, while at this point I'm not sure I'm convinced on Allofs) but it's your list with your criteria obviously so you should have the final say and to some extent be able to over-rule any one of us unless you are persuaded otherwise by the arguments or info/footage/ratings etc!

 

This is what "Kicker" wrote about Wolfgang Weber in December 1965, when they rated him "world class" for the first time:

Also risen to "world class" level is the young Köln player Wolfgang Weber.

Weber is "world class" because he has everything, really everything, that is needed to be a stopper of "world class". He possesses excellent physical conditions, is technically (headers and long passes) absolutely perfect and possesses a further great gift, the ability to adapt tactically to his opponent, to dominate his opponent in that terrain. Weber's special class was visible already in the game against Italy in March in Hamburg. Vittorio Pozzo, the mastermind of Italy's two World Cup winning teams, praised as follows: "Weber has everything to become a second Szymaniak".

In the European Cup games for Köln against Liverpool Weber competently stopped the feared goalgetter Roger Hunt, who is also part of England's first team for the World Cup. Hunt commented after the game: "I have not played against a player of such class for a long time."

Unforgettable Weber's brilliant performance in the decisive game in Rotterdam. Despite a broken fibula he stayed on the pitch for 120 minutes and in the end was Köln's most dangerous attacker. Also fresh in our memory is the second half against Austria in Stuttgart. In this game, Weber took over the stopper role from Sieloff and eliminated Buzek in a superior manner, the man who had been a constant danger for our goal before that. A new Schnellinger, as far as class is concerned!