A list of all time great players, and the pantheon of greatest ever

I am going to add Piazza back into the 70-76 period. I like this as I needed representation for that Saint Etienne team.

 

Does anyone know anything about Curkovic's time in Yugoslavia and why he was never first choice goalkeeper?

 

Looking more at the Pantheon goalkeepers from his era I am going backing and re adding Viktor to the pantheon. There is no difference between someone like Zoff and Viktor except Viktor played for Dukla Prague and not Juventus. Proved himself in every single available avenue. Won a tournament vs the two dominant teams of his era in a much more decisive manner than many other goalkeepers ever did.

 

Changes to the 76-86 era.

Removed: Ortiz, Muhren, Dinamite, Fernandez, Robson, and Socrates

I just do not think there is enough there for Ortiz. The Libertadores record is good, but there is so little else of consequence. He also misses a number of games in the 75 Copa America, Colombia's only international achievement of note.

Muhren I think was good in a lot of places but never great. He is good with Twente, but never good enough to break into the national team (Thijssen does break in). I think his time with Ipswich is good and he plays important games for the national team but is never Team of the Year, much less player of the year as is the case with his Thijssen. With United he has one good year before the loses his place in the team. His Ajax time is good and he has a run in the national team. Overall I think he is a good player with longevity, not a great one in my eyes. He is always at best the third or fourth most important player on his team.

Dinamite just does not have enough international exposure and success. Even in 78 he comes up with important goals but is not a locked in starter.

Fernandez lacks longevity. He is great from 83-86, a four season run. After that he makes a poor transfer, gets seriously injured, and never is really an important force in the national team again.

Robson is just a little short in so many cases, but overall never really has those moments that an all time great player delivers. Starts off the 1982 world cup with a bang but fizzles out. Gets Hurt in 84 right when it looks like he may deliver a gib moment in the CWC. Hurt in 86, hurt in 90. Never wins the league when he is an important player in the team. Also the national team has its better results when he is hurt in 86 and 90, and struggles more with him in the team in 88.

Socrates like Fernandez just does not have a long enough run a strong play. He is great from 79-83, a five season run. I thought that the 86 world cup got him possibly to 6 seasons but looking back my impression that he played well is not really supported by any contemporary sources, and he barely played domestically that yea as well.

Added: Nyilasi, Nehoda, Strachan, Tarantini, and Magath

Still considering but unsure about Sigurvinsson, Thijssen, Vandereycken, and Munoz

 

This sounds wishy washy, but I am still reading and thinking more about these players and I am not going to include Tarantini and Strachan.

 

14) Maradona and second Dutch/German Clash ~ 1986-1992

Country

Italy (6)
Netherlands (5)
Germany (5)
Brazil (3)
Argentina (3)
Belgium (2)
England (2)
Spain (2)
Romania (1)
France (1)
Ghana (1)
Wales (1)
Norway (1)
Mexico (1)
Sweden (1)

I think it is appropriate for the Dutch, Germans, and Italians to have the most players listed followed by Brazil and Argentina. Based on their results in the World Cup Argentina could have more players, but they are front loaded in their talent, but I will go back and look through the options for another Argentine. The obvious big omission that I have noted before is the USSR. They have many excellent players but none with longevity. I will look through the options again but I have had no luck so far.

Club

AC Milan (5)
Internazionale (5)
Marseille (4)
Real Madrid (4)
Napoli (3)
Bayern Munich (3)
Barcelona (3)
PSV (3)
Sampdoria (2)
Werder Bremen (2)
Everton (2)
Juventus (2)
Ajax (2)
Roma (2)
Torino (2)
Tottenham (2)
Steaua Bucuresti (1)
Atletico Madrid (1)
Red Star Belgrade (1)
Auxerre (1)
Independiente (1)
IFK Goteborg (1)
Athletic Bilbao (1)
Fiorentina (1)
Liverpool (1)
Koln (1)
Mechelen (1)
River Plate (1)
Logrones (1)
Benfica (1)
PSG (1)
Nantes (1)
Anderlecht (1)
Velez Sarsfield (1)
Sao Paulo (1)

More thoughts on clubs shortly

 

European club competition results by country

Italy: 15 semifinals, 6 trophies
W Germany: 13 semifinals, 2 trophies
Spain: 12 semifinals, 3 trophies
Belgium: 7 semifinals, 1 trophy
France: 6 semifinals
Netherlands: 5 semifinals, 3 trophies
Portugal: 4 semifinals, 1 trophy
Romania: 4 semifinals, 1 trophy
Soviet Union: 3 semifinals, 1 trophy
Sweden: 2 semifinals, 1 trophy
Yugoslavia: 2 semifinals, 1 trophy
Czechoslovakia: 2 semifinal
E Germany: 2 semifinals
England: 1 semifinal, 1 trophy
Scotland: 1 semifinal
Austria: 1 semifinal
Denmark: 1 semifinal
Bulgaria: 1 semifinal
Poland: 1 semifinal
Turkey 1 semifinal

 

I think looking at more Steaua Bucuresti players would be appropriate based on their EC run from 86-90. I also think I could reexamine the Colombian players as they win a libertadores and much improved internationally.

As of now some players on the list I am unsure about and might remove are Alemao and Scifo. That is more of an issue with those specific players than anything to do with appropriate represrntation..

I am also unsure on which era Abedi Pele belongs in 86-92 or 92-98.

Right now some players I am interested in possibly adding are Georges Grun, Marc Degryse (although I am not sure if this is the right era vs the next one), Valdo, Paulo Futre, Rui Barros, Luigi De Agostini, Toni Polster, Srecko Katanec, Sergio Baista, Ricardo Giusti, Fernando De Napoli, Roberto Mancini, Oleh Protasov, Mark Hughes, Klaus Augenthaler, Joao Pinto,Oleksiy Mykhaylychenko, and Guido Buchwald.

I did not go through this era the most carefully the first time around and there seem to be a lot of borderline players. All advice and information appreciated.

 

For now I will remove Alemao and add Grun, Valdo, Futre, Katanec, and Mancini

 

15) Mid 90s Transition ~ 1992-1998

Country

Italy (5)
France (4)
Brazil (4)
Germany (3)
Argentina (3)
England (2)
Romania (2)
Denmark (2)
Netherlands (2)
Paraguay (2)
Portugal (2)
Republic of Ireland (2)
Bulgaria (2)
Wales (1)
Spain (1)
Liberia (1)
Yugoslavia (1)

Club

Barcelona (6)
AC Milan (5)
Internazionale (5)
Manchester United (4)
Real Madrid (3)
Juventus (3)
Marseille (3)
PSG (2)
Monaco (2)
Parma (2)
Tottenham (2)
PSV (2)
Borussia Dortmund (2)
Stuttgart (2)
Ajax (2)
Fiorentina (2)
Red Star (1)
Roma (1)
Benfica (1)
Porto (1)
Sporting CP (1)
Deportivo La Coruna (1)
Velez Sarsfield (1)
Napoli (1)
Saint Ettiene (1)
Auxerre (1)
Arsenal (1)
Corinthians (1)
Flamengo (1)
Palmieras (1)
Atletico Madrid (1)
Chelsea (1)
Bayern Munich (1)
Aston Villa (1)
Blackburn (1)
Arsenal (1)
Sampdoria (1)

 

European club competition results by country

Italy: 22 semifinals, 7 trophies
France: 13 semifinals, 2 trophies
Spain: 11 semifinals, 4 trophies
Germany: 11 semifinals, 4 trophies
Netherlands: 6 semifinals, 2 trophies
England: 6 semifinals, 2 trophies
Russia: 3 semifinals
Belgium: 2 semifinals
Portugal: 2 semifinals
Austria: 2 semifinals
Czechoslovakia: 2 semifinals
Yugoslavia: 1 semifinal
Scotland: 1 semifinal
Sweden: 1 semifinal
Greece: 1 semifinal

Italy is way out in front here. I don't think I can go to far with Italy based players. I am going to look more closely at some Juventus and Parma players. France also has more success in Europe than I expected.

 

Players currently in I am unsure about: Aldair, Baia, Balakov, Gamarra, Irwin, McGrath, Popescu, and Sensini

Considering for addition: Rai, Reuter, Blind, Sergi, Sosa, Enrique, Nilis, Peterscu, Jonk, Winter, Peruzzi, D Baggio, Benarrivo, Sforza, Ince, Wilmots, Eilts, Adams, Lama, Overmars, Mijatovic, and Ferrara

 

I am also going back and adding Francescoli into the 86-92 era. Reading through some old serie a rankings and he has more well rated seasons than I thought. Big picture I still find him a bit overrated but I don't see any way he does not qualify based on my criteria.

 

MY decisions on these players

Aldair: In, I think The later part of his career is probably overrated. He misses a lot of games in the 01 title winning season and other later seasons and is not at his best in the 98 WC. But I think early in his career going to back to back European finals in 90 (Benfica) and 91 (Roma) and the 94 WC and the 89 CA is a strong run of form and accomplishments. He was showing good form all the way through from 89-97.

Baia: In, strong runs in multiple European competitions over a long period of time from the early 90s to the mid 00s. Recognition from multiple sources POTY, ESM.

Balakov: In, club career is a little below ATG level but has a good run in 97 and 98. National team career is strong.

Gamarra: Out, his club career just does not have enough going for it. Other players have failed in Europe and I have not had an issue with it. In this case he faisl in Europe for multiple clubs totalling six seasons. He shows good form domestgically in Brazil but has no significant Libertadores runs or other broader exposure at the club level to make up for his repeated failures in Europe (The way someone like Cubilla does). He just never proves himself at a broader level with the club. It makes you wonder if his success with the national team is more a product of Paraguay's system and the other players around him, as he never really differentiates himself at a higher level with the a club.

Irwin: Out, being good at Man U alone is not enough in this era in my eyes. Even as good as he was their he did not dominate PFA team of the year awards the way other fullbacks did. He also misses all the big tournaments with Irealnd, I am not sure is this is the managers choice or bad luck with injuries.

McGrath: Out, I am not sure he gets to seven seasons. On an ability level he has it, as evidence of being player of the year as a defender. He is also very central to Ireland's success. But only two PFA team of the year awards compared to other Irish defenders I did not include like O'Leary and Lawrenson does not seem like it passes the criteria. The only club seasons I am sure are good are 86, 90, and 93 with probably 92 and 95 also being good...

Popescu: In, his club career is a little spotty but he has multiple European runs and was generally considered successful at all his stops. Two good seasons at Barca. National team career is very impressive.

Sensini: Out, this was one of the more difficult decision. The club career is solid with Parma, also some good seasons with Udinese. He is not very influential in the Lazio double season. With Parma he is a good player but of all the great players there I am not sure he is one of the best? Similar issue with the national team. In big tournaments he is never a locked in starter. He is in and out of the team.

 

Of these players I will address the ones I am adding.

Rai: I think I docked him too much for being benched in 94 and failing in that tournament. He was played out of position and not really needed to express himself int he way he was cable of for the tactics of that Brazil team. The club career is great and he proves himself many times on an international level there. Obvious he has good moments with Brazil as he is captain going into 94.

Blind: I think the number of strong runs in European competition where he was central to victory, which is backed up by things like ESM is enough to overcome the lack of a strong national team career.

Peruzzi: Fantastic club career, on his way to a great national team career until his injury in 98 opened the door for Buffon. Would have been interesting to see how long he could have held off Buffon if he had not gotten injured prior to the 98 WC. Club career was still great after 98 with Lazio.

Ferrara: Similar to Peruzzi. Great club career as a fullback with Maradona's Napoli and with Juventus in the late 90s early 00s. Was part of the national team but never really first choice with all the great Italian defenders. Was about to have his moment in 1998 WC but was injured before hand giving room for Nesta and Canavarro to take over (Also injured right before Euro 96 when he had just gained complete wonership in the national team).

 

Your version of a harsh argument is gentle by the standards of many posters. All input is welcome. My opinions on many of these players are not well defined and new information is always welcome.

These players I am struggling with adding and removing are on the borderline of qualification in my eyes so them going in and out seems likely.

For a player like Grun the issue is really peak level. Was he great? This is ill defined but I like to think about it in this way. Was he one of the handful of players on his teams that was the reason they won games, or was he a good player who was part of a good.great team?

Think about the current Liverpool of the past couple of years. For me there is a group of players that are the reason why they win games, they are driving the success. VVD, Mane, and Salah to me are the obvious ones with TAA, Firmino, and Alisson also close. Players like Henderson, Robertson, and Wijnaldum etc are all good players but they are more cogs in the machine. The whole machine works because VVD can solve difficult defensive situations when outnumbered and play out from the back. The machine is set up to feature Mane and Salah as the finishers of moves because of how great their power/movement/skill is.

So for a player like Grun and Katanec I try to figure out which of these groups they fall into. Both have the on paper resume that seems to pass the seven season test and appropriate levels of achievement at an international level. Both players were good in multiple leagues and in multiple continental club competitions. Grun was also excellent internationally, maybe Katanec a little less so. So again they key with both of these payers were they the players driving success for their teams or just good players on excellent teams? One thing to remember is that some players are difference makers in some of their teams but not in others. The example I used was Wilson Piazza. For Brazil he was not asked to do much, and If someone wanted to rank players from Brazil 70 or 74 in importance/contribution he would probably rank somewhere from 7-11. But for Cruziero he was a dominant player for many big achievements. On that team he was always a top three player in importance/contribution, one of the pillars of the team.

It is not easy to deduce if a player was driving winning or just a cog in a good team when I have not either of these players play very much. There are other clues to look for. So I am definitely open to suggestions on the idea of Grun and Katanec being the key players or game winners in their teams. For both players I unsure to a degree. Katanec seemed well rated in Sampdoria. At the same time I am not sure how important he really was. In a sense was he replaceable with a another player of less quality and it would not hurt the team? He is playing in a star studded side with tons of players I considered for this list, in part because the team had very high achievement in Europe and domestically. He was one the same team as Vialli, Mancini, Cerezo, Pagliuca, Lombardo, Mikhaylichenko, Vierchowod, Munoz, etc. These are a all players I considered for ATG so obviously not all of them can be driving winning for Sampdoria. Some of these players, like Cerezo may be in a more complementary role with this team but were more decisive back in the late 70s early 80s. For Katanec I think he needs to be one of the decisive players of this team, as most of his important achievements occur in this three year run for Sampdoria. I have his seven seasons as 84, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92. I do not have the impression he was decisive for Yugoslavia. He needs to be in 89-92 when he is having success at bigger clubs making strong European runs.

Grun is not quite as straight forward as he has three different teams of high achievement, Belgium, Anderlecht, and Parma. As far as I know he was solid for the national team but maybe not great? I have not seen him make teams of the tournament for example, but I think he at least played well. In 86 for example he does not start the tournament but plays well when he enters and plays in the teams best games. France Football has him as the highest rated player for Belgium in the QF win vs Spain. So a successful tournament but not really close to team of the tournament or being considered one of Belgium's top players for the tournament compared to Ceulemans or even Gerets or Pfaff. In 1990 he is not as well rated and again misses some games. In 94 his ratings are decent. With Anderlecht I am unsure of how important he was for their big achievements in 84, 86, and 90. You assume thatbhe was good in 84 as he immediately moves into the nationa team as a starter after his first full season. With Parma he was well rated with a good overall reputation, but I am not sure of how important he was in the team.

With Futre the issue is as you said longevity. To me 85-92 seemed like a solid eight season run. I know he had some injury issues in Madrid but he never plays under 30 games in a season in 88-92. I think most of these season with Atletico are well rated if I remember correctly, especially 92. He is dependent on these seasons being good with his club, because if they are not he is not supported by a strong national team career.

Mancini does lack the national team career, but he is so good for so long with Sampdoria in the best league in the world, and plays well in so many European tournaments I think he fulfills the idea of proving himself at the international level.

 

Yes Robinson was immediately the player I thought of outside of Shilton as the great Forest player. He is really stuck at a max of six seasons in my eyes with all his caps and all of his first division games coming in the six season run from 78 to 83.

Looking for seven seasons from Francis 77, 78, 80, 82 and 85 all work, but I am not sure of more seasons outside of that.