A list of all time great players, and the pantheon of greatest ever

What are your thought on Nelinho and Chagas?

 

Yeah looking closer at Leao maybe it is the correct idea that he was just a good player on sucsesful teams, not a great player driving the success. Only one time Bolo de Prata.
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Do you have any thoughts/information on Ancheta's time in Brazil outside of 1973 winning Bolo de Oro?

 

He seems to be a very offensive player. Old clips show him popping up all over in attacking areas for Cruziero like a box to box midfielder, not even really limited to the side of the pitch. Fantastic shooting from many locations, but I can imagine he was not much of a defender.

 

One thing to try to clarify on the seven season criteria for all time great is that the requirement is not for seven world class seasons.

I termed it as seven seasons of significant positive contribution. Significant positive contribution can be reflected by being an important part of a team winning things at a domestic level, playing well enough to earn caps for your country, contributing in continental competitions etc. Basically the player is playing at a high enough level to be contributing to his teams success at a high level of competition. For players in smaller domestic leagues it may be necessary to have some type of contribution in continental competitions or with the national team, where players in bigger leagues with players from round the world may be able to qualify based only on domestic competition if the contribution to winning is strong enough (being an important part of a title winning team etc).

So that may not be perfectly clear but I would say the level of contribution for seven seasons is below "world class".

World Class is the term I would use to describe the requirement for the 4-5 run required for the pantheon in addition to 10 seasons of "significant positive contribution" and a peak level approaching the best player in the world.

 

As of now these are the changes I will make to 70-76

Added: Heynckes, Hughes, Nelinho, Oblak

Removed: Leao

Pantheon: Removed Viktor, Rivellino, Maier

 

13) Zico, Platini, and English Club Dominance ~ 1976-1986

Country

West Germany (9)
Italy (8)
France (7)
Brazil (6)
Argentina (5)
Netherlands (5)
England (5)
Belgium (4)
Denmark (4)
Austria (3)
Scotland (3)
Soviet Union (3)
Spain (3)
Czechoslovakia (2)
Poland (1)
Republic of Ireland (1)
Colombia (1)
Wales (1)

Club

Juventus (10)
Liverpool (6)
Roma (5)
Real Madrid (4)
Bayern Munich (4)
Internazionale (4)
Anderlecht (3)
Bordeaux (3)
B. Monchengladbach (3)
Barcelona (3)
Sampdoria (3)
Saint Etienne (3)
Koln (3)
River Plate (3)
Tottenham (3)
Ajax (3)
Napoli (2)
Valencia (2)
Hamburg (2)
Standard Liege (2)
Hellas Verona (2)
Manchester United (2)
Rapid Vienna (2)
PSV (2)
Flamengo (2)
Udinese (2)
Southampton (2)
Fiorentina (2)
Kaiserslautern (1)
Independiente (1)
Sevilla (1)
Torino (1)
Pescara (1)
Celtic (1)
Atletico Mineiro (1)
Dynamo Moscow (1)
Spartak Moscow (1)
Lokeren (1)
Lyon (1)
Huracan (1)
Arsenal (1)
Stuttgart (1)
Real Betis (1)
Corinthians (1)
Nottingham Forest (1)
Internacional (1)
PSG (1)
Widzew Lodz (1)
Vasco da Gama (1)
Real Sociedad (1)
Monaco (1)
Nantes (1)
Valencia (1)
Bastia (1)
Austria Vienna (1)
Nancy (1)
Metz (1)
Beveren (1)
Wacker Innsbruck (1)
Eintracht Frankfurt (1)
Werder Bremen (1)
Argentinos Junior (1)
Bohemians Praha (1)
Millonarios (1)
Deportivo Cali (1)
America de Cali (1)
Slovan Bratislava (1)
Twente (1)
Ipswich (1)
Dinamo Tbilisi (1)
Club Brugge (1)

Thoughts to come later.

 

Looking at achievements by European countries clubs with at least 3 semifinal continental appearances.

West Germany: 25 semifinals, 5 trophies
England: 17 semifinals, 11 trophies
Spain: 16 semifinals, 5 trophies
Belgium: 14 semifinals, 3 trophies
Italy: 11 semifinals, 3 trophies
Soviets: 6 semifinals, 2 trophies
Dutch: 6 semifinals, 1 trophy
France: 5 semifinals, 0 trophies
Austria: 4 semifinals, 0 trophies
Czechs: 4 semifinals, 0 trophies
Yugo.: 4 semifinals, 0 trophies
Romania: 3 semifinals, 1 trophy
Sweden: 3 semifinals, 1 trophy
Scotland: 3 semifinals, 1 trophy
Portugal: 3 semifinals, 0 trophies

 

Best clubs in European competition (reached at least 3 semifinals)

Anderlecht: 7 semifinals, 3 trophies
Liverpool: 6 semifinals, 5 trophies
Juventus: 6 semifinals, 3 trophies
Real Madrid: 6 semifinals, 2 trophies
Barcelona: 5 semifinals, 2 trophies
Hamburg: 5 semifinals, 2 trophies
Bayern Munich: 5 semifinals, 1 trophy
Borussia Monchengladbach: 4 semifinals, 1 trophy
Nottingham Forest: 3 semifinals, 2 trophies
Internazionale: 3 semifinals, 0 trophies
Koln: 3 semifinals, 0 trophies

 

The South American clubs are harder to sort out because the Libertadores is such a strange competition, that all countries do not value as highly as the European Cup in Europe.

I would say the top tier of teams during this era was.

Flamengo
Internacional
River Plate

Followed by

Boca Juniors
Cruziero
Atletico Mineiro
Gremio
Penarol
Nacional

 

Based on performances of the national teams

I would say Italy, France, West Germany, and Argentina are the top performers followed by Brazil, Belgium, Spain, and England. Denmark, the Czechs, Poland, and Austria all have some success as well.

 

So now looking back at the distribution of players I would say that by country that Argentina and Belgium are slightly underrepresented and maybe Poland as well.

As far as clubs go both Juventus and Roma are over represented. This is in part because they are importing in great players for short stops. I would like to have Liverpool closer to the top. Anderlecht and Hamburg based on their success are under represented. The top tier South American clubs seems short as well.

Next I will start a list of players I am considering adding and dropping based on some of this analysis and other factors. All input is more than welcome.

 

Some players I am looking at as additions

Julien Cools (Club Brugge, Belgium)
Ludovic Coeck (Anderlecht, Belgium)
Rene Vandereycken (Club Brugge, Anderlecht, Belgium)
Erwin Vandenbergh (Liersem Anderlecht, Belgium)

Felix Magath (Hamburg, West Germany)
Ivan Buljan (Hajduk Split, Hamburg, Yugoslavia) Wrong era probably but interesting resume

Ramaz Shengelia (Dinamo Tbilisis, Soviet Union)
Vladimir Bessonov (Dynamo Kiev, Soviet Union)

Safet Susic (Sarajevo, PSG, Yugoslavia)

Wladislaw Zmuda (Widzew Lodz, Poland)

Frans Thijssen (Twente, Ipswich, Netherlands)

Friedl Koncilia (SSW Innbruck, Austria Vienna, Austria)

John Robertson (Nottingham Forest, Scotland)
Willie Miller (Aberdeen, Scotland)

Viv Anderson (Nottingham Forest, England)
Mark Lawrenson (Liverpool, Republic of Ireland)
Terence McDermott (Liverpool, England)

Victor Munoz (Barcelona, Spain)

Alberto Tarantini (Boca Juniors, River Plate, Argentina)
Americo Gallego (Newell's Old Boys, River Plate, Argentina)
Ricardo Bochini (Independiente, Argentina)

Batista (Internacional, Brazil)
Leandro (Flamengo, Brazil)
Tita (Flamengo, Gremio, Brazil)

Hugo de Leon (Nacional, Gremio, Uruguay)

Mark Lawrenson seems like the most likely candidate to add a Liverpool player, and Viv Anderson the most likely for a Nottingham Forest player. Robertson was better in an absolute sense, but I don't see any way he has more than 6 strong seasons. Outside of the six season run from 78-83 he never plays another season in the first division and is never capped. The best argument for him might be in the promotion winning season in 76/77 but I am not sure how I feel about that. Also 81/82 is not a slam dunk for a strong season either.

Looking at the Belgium players Coeck is an interesting case, placing well in Belgium all time lists and being a vital part of all three of Anderlecht's European titles. A few unfortunate injuries inhibited his career, especially the timing with major tournaments and Belgium. Cools has a solid resume being the captain of the Brugge side that made two finals and captain of the 1980 Euro final team for Belgium. Vandereycken has a strong resume on paper with lots of European runs and important matches with Belgium. Vandenbergh's domestic record is strong but in Europe and for Belgium his production dips.

Belgium Golden Shoe finishes

Coeck: 76 (4th), 77 (4th), 82 (2nd), 83 (5th)
Cools: 75 (4th), 76 (5th), 77 (1st)
Vandereycken: 75 (5th), 78 (2nd), 85 (3rd)
Vandenbergh: 80 (3rd), 81 (1st)

Magath looks like the best option for another Hamburg player. Good resume all around. I believe he missed some time in the national team because of a falling out with a coach?

Interested in opinions on any of the above players. Right now Leandro, Batista, Gallego, Munoz, Lawrenson, Anderson, Koncilia, Susic, Bessonov, Magath, Cools, Ceock, and Vandereycken are the players I am the most interested in.

 

Possible exclusions. This era is already a little high in players per year compared to some others and as some mentioned this was considered a bit of a down era as well compared to the previous two so with the number of players I am interested in adding there needs to be some that get removed. Honestly I am open to suggestions here as I do not see a lot of options for removal.

Some players I am less sure on:

Bryan Robson: Lacks big tournament and continental success. Very good domestically but never really delivers trophies.

Roberto Dinamite: Limited success/exposure at the international level.

Willington Ortiz: Excellent record in the Libertadores and some international success but not sure if it is enough.

Arnold Muhren: Not sure if there is enough here. Good in many different places. Was he great in any of them?

 

Would you rate these as the two most important Saint Etienne players above Javion, Lopez, and Rocheteau?

Looking at them if I added them they would belong to the previous era. Any good information supporting the thoughts about Piazza? @msioux75 thoughts about Piazza?

 

This is interesting to me. I believe all the all time Czech player ratings I have seen have Panenka higher. What is your reasoning?

Also how would you compare Masny to these two?

Ballon d'Or and Czech footballer of the year is maybe a slight advantage to Nehoda. Overall resumes in continental competitions looks similar, maybe Panenka slightly better after moving to Austria.

 

@msioux75 @argentine soccer fan @Vegan10

What are your thoughts on Americo Gallego as an all time great vs a good player with longevity?