A list of all time great players, and the pantheon of greatest ever

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Tom Stevens, Mar 27, 2020.

  1. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    What are your thoughts on Sandor vs Puis?
     
  2. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Any thoughts on Zoco?
     
  3. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    Zoco was a good team player for Real Madrid. I don't think it has an international class like Pirri, Gento and Amancio did. Even Sanchís and Velázquez may have had an international class season. In my humble opinion, players like De Felipe, Grosso or Zoco had a good performance at Real Madrid, some seasons with a very good performance, but none of the three reached an international class. I wouldn't include it on the second rung of your list. Something similar to the case of Zoco we could say of other Spanish players, with a national class, but less international travel: Adelardo, Glaría, Ufarte, Fusté, Reija, Violeta, Tonono ... More questions I have about others such as Luis Aragonés, Gárate , Marcelino, Lapetra or Gallego, which, at least if I had mentioned them in your long list.
     
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  4. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Puis didn't strike me as ATG-level. Sandor was mentioned in the same breath as the best wingers around, so at least a step above.
     
  5. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Based on recent input I am thinking about a few changes. Also wanted to reiterate I appreciate the input and more is always appreciated.

    Puis out
    Zoco out
    Hunt out
    Giles out

    Looking back at Hunt he not only has issues with some observers not rating his peak that high, but he is also borderline as far as accumulating seven strong seasons. I still rate him and I think that Liverpool side is undervalued in general. They were a hair away from beating on of the greatest teams ever in 1965 Inter in the EC semifinal and the same losing in the CWC final in extra time to Dortmund in 1966. In their European runs in this time they defeat Anderlecht handily, Koln dubiously, Juventus, Standard Liege, and Celtic one year before they win every trophy ever created. I think this team is every bit as good as there rivals in Manchester.

    The issue with Hunt is the seven seasons. 64, 65, and 66 are solid. Great contributions domestically, continentally, and for the national team. In 63 his goalscoring record is only okay and the team places eighth, he is capped once. This is borderline at best. 67 he is starting for the national team with acceptable performance in less good domestically and in Europe. Borderline but probably okay. I think 68 is good, strong goalscoring numbers and league finish, some better results in Europe (9-2 over 2 legs vs Munchen 1860 a good team), and solid for the national team and full time starter. 69 his numbers dip, the teams results are still good, and he loses his place int he national team being capped only twice. Again borderline at best.

    So 64, 65, 66, and 68 sure things. 67 is probably enough to make 5. Then I would need to include two more very borderline seasons to make seven.

    Reinstating

    Iribar
    Sandor

    Charlton in
     
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  6. Vegan10

    Vegan10 Member+

    Aug 4, 2011
    Apart from the aforementioned players, Molowny had a pivotal role in Di Stefano’s first season at the club and Joseito in Alfredo’s second campaign, but I don’t know if they would qualify for ATG status. I also cannot comment on how well they were performing before Alfredo’s arrival, other than some brief comments of how wonderful Molowny used to be as a player by the Madrid press.
     
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  7. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Some fun facts about Leeds I found when researching Jack Charlton.

    Leeds goals allowed record in European competitions is amazing. This is their run with Charlton.

    1965/66 Fairs Cup semifinalist: 10 GA in 11 games: 0.91 per game
    1966/67 Fairs Cup finalist: 8 GA in 10 games: 0.80 per game
    1967/68 Fairs Cup champions: 4 GA in 12 games: 0.33 per game
    1969/70 European Cup semifinalist: 3 GA in 8 games: 0.38 per game
    1970/71 Fairs Cup champions: 9 GA in 12 games: 0.75 per game
    1972/73 Cup Winners Cup finalists: 3 GA in 9 games: 0.33 per game

    During the above six European runs they defeated: Torino, Valencia, Ujpest, Valencia, Bologna, Partizan, Rangers, Dundee, Ferencvaros, Standard Liege, Napoli, Ferencvaros, Standard Liege, Sparta Prague, Liverpool, Juventus, and Hajduk Split.

    I like moving Charlton in for Giles. He reflects the strength of the team. Also won POTY, better national team etc.
     
  8. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC

    12) Dutch and German Dominance in the 70s ~ 1970-1976

    Country

    Netherlands (8)
    West Germany (5)
    Soviet Union (3)
    Poland (3)
    Brazil (3)
    Scotland (2)
    Czechoslovakia (2)
    Denmark (2)
    Belgium (2)
    Peru (2)
    Sweden (2)
    England (1)
    Italy (1)
    Bulgaria (1)
    East Germany (1)
    France (1)
    Northern Ireland (1)
    Spain (1)
    Yugoslavia (1)
    Chile (1)

    This looks close to correct. Maybe Brazil deserves another player, but almost all of the 1970 team were winding up their careers at that point. Along with Rivellino, Codoaldo was the other player at the right age to move into this era as ATG but injuries hampered that effort. He seems to be slightly short of seven seasons but I may review his case. In the 38 games he played for Brazil they only lost once. Nelinho and Caju are some other players I considered who fell slight short.

    McGrain is one player I have wavered on and am considering removing, any input on him would be welcome.

    My biggest issue with this group is the pantheon. I am wavering on all of Maier, Rensenbrink, Rivellino, van Hanehem, and Vogts.
     
  9. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Based on the others who made it in, I would probably add the following:
    Brindisi, Heighway, Heynckes, Marinho Chagas, Morena, Nelinho, Oblak, Tomaszewski.

    And remove:
    Jansen, Jensen, Lambert, Leao, Le Fevre, Piot and Suurbier.

    Of your list of wavers, I would include Maier, Rensenbrink and Vogts for the pantheon.
     
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  10. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    I am satisfied with the mention of Molowny, a Tenerife player who stood out at Real Madrid, mainly in the early 1950s. However, his importance in the team was greater before the arrival of Di Stéfano, when Real Madrid was not the winning team that It was after. His contribution to Real Madrid's first league of the Di Stéfano era is undeniable, but I don't think he was an international-class footballer. With the Spanish team, his appearances were sporadic. In any case, a skilled and highly technical footballer, greatly admired by the fans.
     
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  11. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    I hope it doesn't bother you if this time I make enough modification suggestions. I may not finish interpreting your criteria correctly, but looking closely at your 1970-76 list, I would suggest the following changes:
    Pantheon: Out: Viktor, Van Hanegem
    Qualified: In: Ancheta, Heynckes, Emlyn Hughes, Katalinski, Morena.
    Out: Jansen, Jensen, Lambert, Lefevre, Leao, McGrain, Piot, Van Beveren, and possibly Benetti, Bonev, and Croy.

     
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  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Jansen not an all time great defensive midfielder? That is a joke. The double handicaps well visible again. The known tendency by these two usuals to bash down Holland, too.

    Not that results matter anyway. The 1920s, with Italy and Spain having three times as many ATG despite performing vastly inferior across many successive tournaments and with lower peak results, and of course the referees and authorities on their side, already show that.
     
  13. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    #463 Gregoriak, Jun 25, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2020
    Look at this:

    1970-1976

    Country

    Netherlands (8)
    West Germany (5)

    Dutch NT: no trophies (1 World Cup final, 1 Euro SF)
    Dutch clubs: 4 European Cups, 1 UEFA Cup
    5 major trophies

    West Germany NT: 1 World Cup 1 European Championship (+1 World Cup SF, 1 Euro final)
    West Germany clubs: 3 European Cups, 1 UEFA Cup
    6 major trophies

    Still the Netherlands so far end up with 3 additional players ahead of a country that clearly outperformed them in that period (West Germany).

    Yet you whine. Incredible.
     
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  14. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Speaking of the usual...

    Which 20s Dutch players would you elevate to ATG?
     
  15. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I want to go over a few of my ideas on why I have the Dutch ahead of the Germans in this era, based on the number of players.

    Now the Germans clearly had a more successful national team. They had a core group of players from two clubs that made a more effective team than what the Dutch could put together over the course of this era. The dutch had a great team but the thing that really impresses me about them is how good a whole second team of players could have been. The Dutch had so many different clubs making significant runs in Europe.

    Taking a slight broader look than just this era at the success of club teams in Europe (making at least a semifinal) and how the players from those teams fir into my rankings. Bolded players are ones included in as ATG

    First the Germans

    Bayern Munich

    1967 Cup Winners Cup: Champion
    1968 Cup Winners Cup: Semifinal
    1972 Cup Winners Cup: Semifinal
    1974 European Cup: Champions
    1975 European Cup: Champions
    1976 European Cup: Champions
    1980 UEFA Cup: Semifinals

    Players in consideration for ATG: Beckenbauer, Muller, Maier, Brietner, Rumminage, Honness, Hansen, Schwarzenbeck


    Borussia Monchengladbach

    1973 UEFA Cup: Runners Up
    1974 Cup Winners Cup: Semifinal
    1975 UEFA Cup: Champions
    1977 European Cup: Runners Up
    1978 European Cup: Semifinals
    1979 UEFA Cup: Champions
    1980 UEFA Cup: Runners Up

    Players in consideration for ATG: Vogts, Bonhof, Stielike, Simonsen, Netzer, Jensen, Wimmer


    Koln

    1969 Cup Winners Cup: Semifinals
    1971 Fairs Cup: Semifinals
    1975 UEFA Cup: Semifinals
    1979 European Cup: Semifinals

    Players in consideration for ATG: Overath, Schumacher, Flohe, Muller, Weber


    Eintracht Frankfurt

    1967 Fairs Cup: Semifinals
    1976 Cup Winners Cup: Semifinals
    1980 UEFA Cup: Champions

    Players in consideration for ATG: Holzenbein, Grabowski, Pezzey


    Hamburg

    1968 Cup Winners Cup: Runners Up
    1976 UEFA Cup: Semifinals
    1977 Cup Winners Cup: Champions

    Players in consideration for ATG: Schulz, Seeler, Kaltz, Magath


    Stuttgart

    1974 UEFA Cup: Semifinals
    1980 UEFA Cup: Semifinals

    Players in consideration for ATG: Forster

    Schalke

    1970 Cup Winners Cup: Semifinals

    Players in consideration for ATG: Libuda, Fischer, Fichtel


    MSV Duisburg

    1979 UEFA Cup: Semifinals

    Players in consideration for ATG:


    Fortuna Dusseldorf

    1979 Cup Winners Cup: Semifinals

    Players in consideration for ATG:


    Hertha BSC

    1979 UEFA Cup: Semifinals

    Players in consideration for ATG:


    So the Germans really have two great teams during this era, with Hamburg becoming great after this era. Koln makes some semifinals but is never close to winning.

    Overall Germans teams make 30 Semifinals, 12 Finals, and 8 wins.

    They have 18 players involved in these runs make ATG.


    Now the Dutch


    Ajax

    1969 European Cup: Runners Up
    1970 Fairs Cup: Semifinals
    1971 European Cup: Champions
    1972 European Cup: Champions
    1973 European Cup: Champions
    1980 European Cup: Semifinals

    Players in consideration for ATG: Krol, Cruyff, Neeskens, Hann, Suurbier, Murhen, Keizer, Rep, Swart, Vasovic, Hulshoff


    Feyenoord

    1970 European Cup: Champions
    1974 UEFA Cup: Champions

    Players in consideration for ATG: van Hanegem, Israel, Jansen, Hasil, Kindvall, Moulijin


    PSV

    1971 Cup Winners Cup: Semifinals
    1975 Cup Winners Cup: Semifinals
    1976 European Cup: Semifinals
    1978 UEFA Cup: Champions

    Players in consideration for ATG: van Beveren, van der Kuijlen, W van de Kerkhof, R van de Kerkhof, Brandts, Edstrom, Nordqvist


    Twente

    1973 UEFA Cup: Semifinals
    1975 UEFA Cup: Runners Up
    1978 Cup Winners Cup: Semifinals

    Players in considerations for ATG: Murhen, Thijssen


    And for fun throw in Anderlecht as their two best players are Dutch

    Anderlecht

    1976 Cup Winners Cup: Champions
    1977 Cup Winners Cup: Runners Up
    1978 Cup Winners Cup: Champions

    Players in consideration for ATG: Hann, Rensenbrink


    I think the Dutch led teams have four great teams in this era with PSV, Ajax, Feyenoord, and Anderlecht.

    Overall Dutch teams make 18 semifinals, 11 finals, and 8 wins.

    They have 18 players involved in these runs make ATG.


    So...

    Germans teams make 30 semifinals, 12 finals, and 8 wins.

    vs

    Dutch teams make 18 semifinals, 11 finals, and 8 wins.


    Strict to only this era, 70-76

    Germans teams make 13 semifinals, 5 finals, and 4 wins.

    vs

    Dutch teams make 12 semifinals, 7 finals, and 6 wins.

    Also keep in mind that Germany qualifies 6 teams for European Competition in a normal year vs 4 teams for the Dutch.


    Also for fun head to head results between Dutch and German teams

    ADO Den Haag 0 - 4 Koln 1969 CWC R2
    Ajax 5 - 1 Nurnberg 1969 EC R1
    Ajax 4 - 2 Hannover 1970 FC R1
    Sparta Rotterdam 2 - 5 Bayern Munich 1971 FC R3
    Twente 1 - 5 Borussia M 1973 UC SF
    Ajax 5 - 2 Bayern Munich 1973 EC QF
    Feyenoord 4 - 3 Stuttgart 1974 UC SF
    FC Amsterdam 3 - 8 Koln 1975 UC QF
    Twente 1 - 5 Borussia M 1975 UC F
    Ajax 4 - 2 Hertha BSC 1976 UC R2
    Feyenoord 7 - 2 Kaiserslautern 1977 UC R2
    PSV 4 - 1 Eintracht Braunschweig 1978 UC R3
    Feyenoord 2 - 4 Eintracht Frankfurt 1980 UC R3

    7-6 for the Dutch 42-41 for the Dutch

    If we add in Anderlecht

    Anderlecht 0 - 2 Hamburg 1978 CWC R2
    Anderlecht 3 - 2 Hamburg 1978 CWC R2
     
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  16. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Munich
    First I don't have a problem with 8 Dutch players and 5 German players.

    You might want to look into Rolf Rüssmann. In my opinion the best stopper in German football during the 1970s (however his involvement in the '71 Bundesliga scandal kept him out of the national team for most of the 1970s).

    You definitely have to look into Bernard Dietz for MSV Duisburg. One of the fines left backs in German football of the 1970s and a very good sweeper in the 1980s. He's the defender that scored the highest number of goals in Bundesliga history (without being a penalty-taker), among it 4 goals vs. Bayern in 1977.

    Klaus Allofs would be a player to be considered (but not for 1970-76, of course).

    I disagree with adding Anderlecht to the Dutch stats. Then you might also add Leeds of that era or Liverpool of the following era to the Scottish resume (Eddie Gray, Billy Bremner, Joe Jordan, Gordon McQueen, Peter Lorimer, Frank Gray, David Harvey all for Leeds / Kenny Dalglish, Graeme Souness, John Wark, Steve Nicol, Alan Hansen for Liverpool).
     
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  17. EnnatzIsTheMan

    Meidericher Spielverein
    Mar 16, 2018
    Love to hear someone mentioning my hometown club legend Bernard "Ennatz" Dietz!

    I was reviewing his Euros 1980 performances lately, where he captained Germany to the title. It seems although like he has not been that impressive. I can't remember seeing any vote for him in the thread "Best players of the Euros 1980" in this forum. Funnily, he even went off the field voluntarily in the group stage match against the Netherlands for the young Lothar Matthäus. Germany immediately conceded two goals but still secured the victory.

    In Duisburg, he is viewed as the greatest club legend ever, which is not necessarily that hard for a club that never won anything (even though playing 19 years in the Bundesliga from the founding onwards and reaching 4 German cup finals in its history, the latest in 2011 while playing in the second division). For sure he does not fit the ATG criteria, but still he is worth mentioning.
     
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  18. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I am going to go through the players mentioned here as possible additions/removals and give my thoughts on where I am with them right now.

    Possible additions

    Jupp Heynckes: This is the first player I was considering adding even before he was mentioned here. He easily qualifies for the seven seasons. He proved himself at the international level with a fantastic scoring record in Europe which helps make up for his somewhat muted time with the national team. He reaches a high level in Ballon d'Or (7th). He fits into the same type of mold as someone like van Beveren (although I am unsure if van Beveren or van der Kuijlen is the correct player for representing that team) whose national team career is not as good as it could have been for reasons somewhat outside their control, but has an excellent resume in Europe to help make up for it.

    Emlyn Hughes: I have considered him closely and have been unsure in the past. No PFA Team of the Year bothers me. Basically I am not sure if his top level is good enough. One maybe ceremonial/representative POTY in England for a captain? I view him similar to Zoco who I recently decided against, a good player on a great team. I do not think his national team career was especially impressive? Maybe I am wrong on this would like to hear more. The Zoco comparison seems apt, but I am still considering Zoco as well. More info from anyone would be great.

    Steve Heighway: Honestly he was not really on my radar. No PFA Team of the year. No major national team accomplishments. I would enjoy hearing more about him.

    Jan Tomaszewski: He is player that opinions seem to vary widely on. Great in 73 and 74 for the national team. After that I am not sure about his record. No major club achievements or continental runs. I need to know more about other good seasons outside of the obvious excellence in 73 and 74. How was he viewed in the late 70s or the 78 WC? He only has a six season run as starter for the national team from 73-78.

    Josip Katalinski: Both of these next two Yugoslavia players are ones I was interested in but wavered. The five year run from 72-76 looks strong. Outside of that I am not sure about getting to seven seasons. how were 77 and 78 in Nice viewed? His club team has some strong finishes before 1972, could any of these seasons qualify? No important continental achievement with the club. More information would be great.

    Banko Oblak: 71-77 seems solid. I know he was good in 74 and good for Schalke. How was his time in Munich seen? How good were his seasons in Yugoslavia before joining Hajduk Split in 74? Again uncertainty is holding me back here.

    Nelinho: This is another player that I like and have thought about adding before. Domestically he has a great record as far as recognition and playing for a strong side. He has a great three year run in the Copa Libertadores from 75-77. Over these three tournaments they missed making the final in 75 on goal differential, they won in 76, and lost the 77 final after a replay and penalty kicks. In these three tournaments Nelinho played 30 games and scored 11 goals and scored three of those goals in the finals in 76 and 77. In the past I have downplayed Libertadores achievements for other players (Estudiantes) because the Libertadores can be extremely variable in year to year in how difficult your road to the title it. In some years like 69 Estudiantes got a free pass to the semifinals and no other Argentinian or Brazilian teams entered. In these three tournaments Cruziero competed against the whose who of mid seventies South American teams and players: Internacional, Vasco da Gama, Corinthains, Independiente, Rosario Central, Alianza Lima, Boca Juniors, and River Plate (Figueroa, Falcao, Batista, Valdomiro, Pavoni, Bochini, Bertoni, Kempes, Roberto Dinamite, Cueto, Velasquez, Fillol, Perfumo, Passarella, Luque, Mas, Alonso, Gatti, Sa, Tarantini, Mouzo). His national team career is spotty, plays in two world cups but is not a certain starter in either. Has a good Copa America in 1975. With only 21 caps I am still on the fence if the Libertadores exposure makes up for the somewhat lacking national team career. He was 4th place in SAPOTY in 75. @Ariaga II what were your reasons for suggesting him?

    Fernando Morena: Comparing him to the things I said about Nelinho is interesting. Off the bat his domestic career is for less impressive. Uruguay is a two team league while in the mid 70s to early 80s Brazil has a claim to be one of the best leagues in the world with there own deep talent pool and excellent imports from around South America. Looking at his Libertadores record is important, as it is the strongest piece of his legacy. He plays 77 games and scores 37 goals in 10 additions of the tournament. He is top scorer in 74, 75, and 82 and champion in 82. In those three runs he plays 28 games and scores 23 goals a very good record. Looking a little closer at these three runs in 74 he scores 5 times against good teams in Nacional, Independiente, and Huracan and makes the semifinal, a strong run. In 75 the top scorer title is less meaningful in my eyes as he only scores 1 goal vs a good team in Universitario and is eliminated in the first group stage. In 82 he scores four times vs good teams in Sao Paulo, Gremio, River Plate, and Flamengo winning the title, a very strong run. Now outside of these three seasons Morena plays 7 other Libertadores, playing in 49 games and only scoring 14 goals with Penarol going out early almost every tournament. He is guaranteed to make the Libertadores basically every year in a two team league, and can focus more energy on the tournament because of the light domestic schedule. In Brazila nd Argentina the domestic schedules are brutally long with lots of depth and competitiveness for top two finishes and Libertadores qualification. Basically I think his Libertadores record is less impressive when you look a little deeper than it is on the surface level, only two strong tournaments in ten chances. His national team career is not especially impressive. I would be interested in hearing both of your thoughts on his suggestion for inclusion and any information on how his time in Europe was viewed.

    Marinho Chagas: In my eyes he is the classic our tournament player. Has two good seasons in Botafogo in 72 and 73 and an excellent World Cup in 74. He gets a few more caps in 76 and 77 and has a good club year in 81. He gets only 7 caps outside of that one world cup year. Compared to Nelinho, Chagas has three Bola de Prata to Nelinho's four, Chagas in capped in four different years to Nelinho in five, Chagas has the one great World Cup compared to Nelinho playing in two World Cups with one great moment in 78 and a strong Copa America Then Nelinho has the stronger domestic record and all the Libertadores achievement which Chagas does not.

    Atilio Ancheta: Similar to Chagas in that his impact is two short in time. The three year 69-71 run with Nacional winning three domestic titles, the Libertadores, and a strong World Cup is great. Then he moves to Brazil, is never capped again. He is the best rated player in a very strong league in 73 as well but outside of that I am not sure his career in Brazil is very successful? His team does not achieve very much. So basically I am not sure is he gets to seven strong seasons.

    Miguel Angel Brindisi: Very strong record in the early 70s with the national team and club leading up to the 74 WC. He fails to make an impact at that tournament and then is never capped again. I do not understand why as he is excellent domestically in Argentina in 75, 76, and 81. He also has a relatively successful run in Europe for three seasons but again receives no caps during this time. His club career is good enough to make ATG, but I would love to know more about why he was never capped with the national team after 74 for what should have been the whole second half of his prime while he was performing well at the club level.

    I will make another post talking about suggested subtractions later. All information anyone is willing to give on the above players would be great.
     
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  19. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    Below I summarize very briefly some notes that I wrote when investigating these players as candidates to be among the best players in some specific seasons, without implying that the rest were bad seasons for them. Perhaps there is some data that complements your excellent information about them:

    Emlyn Hughes (Liverpool)
    1973.- UEFA wins. Win league (7 goals). In the ideal team Rothmans (18 votes). Fixed with England.
    1976.- UEFA wins. Win league.
    1977.- 5 votes in the Ballon d'Or. 4th best Libero Onze de Onze (8%). FWA of the season. Win the European Cup. Win league. International 9 times.
    1978.- 3rd libero Onze de Onze. Win the European Cup. 2nd in league.
    Josip Katalinski (Zeljeznicar, Nice)
    1972.- Win league (12 goals). 3 goals with Yugoslavia
    1974.- Footballer of the year in Yugoslavia. World Cup quarterfinalist (1 goal). In Sport's ideal team of the year.
    1975.- 4 votes Golden Ball. In the ideal team of Sport Magazine. 9th in league (11 goals).
    1976. (already in Nice): In the ideal eleven of the Eurocup for Helenio Herrera. 2nd in league (10 goals). 5th best libero for Onze. European Championship semifinalist.
    1977.- It is included among the best of the year in Miroir des sports.
    1978.- 11 league goals.
    Branko Oblak (Hajduk, Schalke, Bayern)
    1974.- Win league (5 goals) and Cup. World Cup Quarter Finalist (1 goal). 20th best in the World Cup in my statistical calculations. 5th best soccer player in the World Cup for Kicker. In the ideal Eleven of the World Cup for Kicker. 1 vote in Ballon d'Or.
    1975.- 11th Ballon d'Or. In the ideal team of Sport Magazine. 3rd best footballer in the East with 6%. Win league (4 goals in only 7 games).
    1976.- (already in Schalke 04): In Sport XI. In Batty's XI. Euro Cup semi-finalist. In the ideal eleven of the European Championship for Helenio Herrera. Score two goals in matches in the group stage of the European Championship. Featured in quarterfinals. 2 international Kicker classes. 32nd Best Kicker Rating. For the Yugoslav national team coach, the best on the team, ubiquitous on the pitch. 6th in league.
    1977.- 2nd in league. 2 international Kicker classes. Included among the 62 best in European football by Miroir du Football.
    1978-79 (at Bayern): 2 international Kicker classes.
    Fernando Morena (Peñarol)
    1973.- Win league (top scorer with 23 goals). Best soccer player in Uruguay. 4th Player America The World.
    1974.- Wrong in the World Cup. Win Uruguayan championship (top scorer with 27 goals). 6th Best Footballer in America for El Mundo. Copa Libertadores top scorer (7 goals).
    1975.- 3rd Best player in America “El Mundo”. At the WFHC XI. Win league (top scorer with 34 goals in 22 games). Top scorer of the Copa Libertadores with 8 goals. However, he fails two penalties in the Copa América semifinal and is sent off.
    1982.- 3rd Best Footballer in America in the year for El Gráfico. 4th Footballer of the Year for America "El Mundo". Libertadores wins (top scorer with 7 goals including victory in the last minute). Win league (top scorer with 17 goals).
    1983.- 9th in the Survey of El Gráfico for the best player in America. 4th Best Footballer in America “El Mundo”
    Atilio Ancheta (Nacional, Gremio)
    1969.- Win league. Debuts with Uruguay.
    1970.- In the 4th place of Uruguay in the WC, he was one of its most outstanding footballers. Not for nothing was it included in the ideal XI of the championship. Plus, win the league. In the ideal XI of the World Championship for Placar.
    1971.- Win the Copa Libertadores. Win Uruguayan Championship.
    1972.- (In Guild). Very good rating in Bola de Prata 1972.
    1973.- Ouro Ball (8,14).
     
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  20. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    I admit I haven't looked into how players fit within the seven-year parameter. TBH I think in the old days there are a lot of greats who don't stand up to very heavy scrutiny. For example:
    Gadocha: Only emerges as top tier in the 1972 Olympics. By 76 he's a bench guy in France.
    Edström: Emerges circa 1972. By 1977 he's running on fumes due to injuries.

    There are probably many others. Seven years is a long-ass time to be at the top, really. That's why I think players like Marinho and Nelinho deserve to be in despite a seeming lack of longevity. They both peaked as one of the top few players in their position. They also faced heavier competition than players from smaller countries. Marinho was also an indisciplined party animal, which affected his number of caps. He was still considered Brazil's best leading up to 78, so not just a one-tournament player.

    Speaking of heavier competition, I reiterate the deep talent pool of 70s-80s Brazil is an absolute myth. All this supposed well of talent and they can't find one top-class striker from their 60-team league. OK-class Leivinha, 2-goals Dinamite and comedy reel Serginho are the standouts in this one of the strongest teams in the world?

    Other notes:
    -I'm not the foremost expert on Heighway, but I had him marked as Liverpool's second top player behind Keegan, and having great seasons in 70-71 and 76-77. Not sure why it's not reflected in the awards.

    -Hughes and the entire England defense received a lot of flak in the late 70s. And I mean a lot. Maybe he was past his prime, then. Could also be he was more of a great club player than a great NT-player, which seems to be the case for most Liverpool players, really.

    -Morena was a success in La Liga. His Rayo performances earned him his Valencia contract, and he was sold on because Penarol made a huge offer for him. They actually paid significantly more to get him back then they had received from him when he was two years younger, which is an interesting piece of business. It should be noted the reason he stayed that long in Uruguay was because of contractual shenanigans. Basically when Penarol bought him they made a contract where his old club would receive the biggest chunk of the next transfer fee, so they were kind of stuck with him. I think the Uruguayans finally struck a new deal with each other in 79 when they realized they were in danger of missing out on any fees altogether.
     
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  21. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Possible Subtractions

    Would enjoy any of you thoughts on why these players were suggested, whether I support them strongly or am less sure in the following post.

    Win Jansen: For me I do not really see the arguments against him. He was part of a great club team who won everything domestically and in Europe. He was capped for 14 consecutive seasons and was a major part of three successful major tournaments. And when you think about him at the club level he is an extreamly important part of the group you constantly hear singled out as the reason for the clubs success, the midfield of van Hanegem, Hasil, and Jansen. That is what won Feyenoord games against the best clubs in the world and he was the workhorse for that group. He is like a more accomplished Makelele in my mind.

    Denmark in the 1970s as a quick aside before the next two players. What is going on with that team? They could have fielded am amazing attacking quartet with Jensen, Le Fevre, Simonsen, and Nygaard but it looks like they basically never played together.

    Henning Jensen: Has three very successful stops in three different strong footballing countries. Wins three domestic trophies in Germany with Borussia M, two in Spain with Real Madrid, and then one with Ajax in the Netherlands. Scores lots of big goals in important games in Europe having great success with Borussia M and Ajax. Very skilled player who basically as a False 9 and supporting forward in different places and even some winger and midfield. The whole Danish national team in the 1970s is bizarre. Did players refuse to play for the team? Was the team only sporadically calling there best players abroad for some reason? He plays in a random assortment of game almost no success. I think being very successful in three different leagues and in Europe is enough.

    Ulrik Le Fevre: Compared to Jensen his time with the national team is a bit more successful in the late 60s before he move abroad. He is played consistently, 28 caps in three seasons, and team is more competitive than in the 1970s. Once he moves abroad in the 70s and plays well there he is only sporadically called to the national team that struggles. He has three very good years with Borussia M in the early 70s winning two titles before moving to the great Club Brugge side of the 70s. I find Brugge during this time to be very underrated compared to the more well known Anderlecht. They were more successful domestically and were great in Europe in their own right but just barely failed to win a few finals. With Borrusia he was part of the famous massacre of Inter that got overturned scoring twice. He scored crucial goals in wins against Real Madrid, Ipsiwch and AC Milan in European matches for Brugge.
    Like Jensen he succeeds in multiple leagues with multiple great teams and has success in Europe.

    Raoul Lambert: Great club career and good national team career. Very important at Euro 1972. His prime is unfortunately a little between the Van Himst led sides of the 60s and the very strong 1980s team. He has great record with Brugge, leading them to be the nations dominant side by the end of his career. Has success in Europe with a great run especially in 1976 making the UEFA Cup final scoring against Lyon, Ipswich, Roma, Hamburg, and Liverpool. In my eyes he clearly has longevity, peak, and a balanced career.

    Christina Piot: Has a great run of form with the national team int he first half of the seventies. Goals against are excellent. Great at Euro 72 and in 1974 WCQ shutting down the Dutch and nearly preventing total football from happening on the World Cup stage. Starts his career winning three straight titles with Standard Liege wrestling superiority away from Anderlecht. Decent performances in Europe, knocks out Real Madrid in 1970, nearly beats Inter in 72. Goals against are excellent. Win the Belgium Golden Shoe in 72. Has a seven season run as undisputed starter for Belgium. Looks like a solid career in my eyes.

    Wim Suurbier: I think he has a great all around career. Obviously he is a part of all Ajax and Netherlands achievements in the late 60s and 70s. A less flashy fullback than some of the attacking fullbacks of his time but a fantastic marker and good all around ability. On paper he has it all other than playing a less glamorous position (non attacking fullback) I am not sure what the marks against him are.

    van Beveren: Earlier in this thread I was interested in finding another PSV player for the ATG list as they had tons of success domestically and in Europe. I was interested in van Beveren and van der Klujlen as possible candidates. I could go either way. Both have fantastic club careers and relatively absent national team careers. I think most of this especially with van Beveren is political, where van der Kluijlen had a few more chances and did not perform? Many dutch polls have him as the best or second best Dutch keeper ever.

    Danny McGrain: This one is tough for me. Great reputation as a player but he was to late for many of Celtic's major achievements and had the major injury. Overall he still seems to have enough good years. Major question is did he prove himself enough at the international level? He is not really around for any of the big European runs of Celtic. He is a part of the team that successfully qualifies and has a decent 1974 WC, more than a lot of other great Scottish players before could claim.

    Romeo Benetti: Seems like a strong candidate in my eyes. I have seen a number of sources rate him ahead of Tardelli as Italy's best CM. Excellent run from 71-79 with multiple strong performances in Europe and being a key player in the national team. Also excellent in the 1978 WC.

    Hristo Bonev: He is an interesting one as he plays his whole career for a smaller Bulgarian team so there is little success in Europe unlike some players from the previous generation who were making semifinals. Very long and productive career with the national team and has important moments in qualifying, but looking a bit closer a lot of his production is against minnows like Cyprus, Kuwait, Turkey, Japan, and North Korea. Going for him are the strong Ballon d'Or finishes and multiple times Bulgarian Footballer of the Year, although that award has less competition in the 70s than it did the 60s.

    Jurgen Croy: He got inserted when I felt that on the whole East Germany had enough success in this era that they needed a representative. He was probably their best player in the two major international achievements in 74 and 76. I am open to other possible East German reps but he seemed to be the best based on POTY awards and being one of the only players who was very important to both 74 and 76. Also despite playing for a small club in East Germany he has a strong run in Europe as well defeating Celtic and Fiorentina only allowing 1 goal in those four ties before losing in the semifinals to Anderlecht.

    Emerson Leao: Has a great run with the national team from 71-79. Should have been the keeper in 82 as well and could have changed things. Comes back into the team in 83. Very good in two world cups. Great club run with Palmieras in the 70s. Overall well rounded career with high achievement. Highly rated in both world cups.
     
  22. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Do you know what the high levels of recognition for 1975 are in response to? Stats I have seen show him barely playing in that season for Hajduk. Are they incorrect? Was it national team performance?
     
  23. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I am not sure about the idea that Gadocha emerges in 72. He was a a starter for the club and national team since 67, won two league titles and had two good runs in the European Cup. 67-74 seems like seven solid seasons.

    Edstrom's seven seasons 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 80, and 82.
     
  24. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Some thoughts:

    All my suggestions are based on my World Soccer reading marathon. Any of my suggested cuts are players who didn't appear to have a particularly high profile. There's always the possibility the magazine had a blind spot about a certain player, but I believe any actual ATG would at the very least be identified as a great in the magazine.

    I can already feel the rage building in certain circles, but Feyenoord wasn't really considered an absolute top club at the time. Yes, they did win the EC, but it was considered an upset.

    About Denmark, back in the day clubs weren't required to release players for internationals. Release of players of any nationality who played abroad was basically up to the clubs only. Later on it started to get written into contracts players had to be released for internationals, but even that didn't always help. Still, their results are worse than the roster would seem to indicate.

    The GDR was more highly thought of than their track record from this era might indicate. Basically the 1974 performance was the expectation rather than the exception. Unfortunately the 70s tournament berths were ridiculously stacked against Europe, and the GDR was one of the many victims. I think Croy has earned his spot. Kreische is another possibility.

    Belgium, on the other hand, weren't as highly-thought of as one might think. They were basically a hard-working side that could grind out results, but not much in terms of individual ability. Even the Dutch qualifier ties appear in a different light when you realize Belgium needed a win in the last game. So it's not so much a case of almost preventing total football from happening, but about minimalist total football taking the required result and Belgium being completely powerless to do anything about it.

    Bonev was great for a Bulgaria that was basically seen as a one-man team. He pretty much dragged Bulgaria to the 74 WC on his own. Definitely ATG in my book.

    Leao seemed to me as only being great circa 1978. The rest of his longevity is basically due to Brazil being a traditional clown show for goalkeepers. The fact he warmed the bench for the hilariously bad Felix and Waldir Peres probably says something. I noticed @msioux75 didn't rate him highly at all in his rankings, which intrigued me. Not even in the late 70s?

    Before 1972, Gadocha was a decent player for a decent NT. Not even a sure starter and certainly no international recognition as a great.

    Edström was done by the late 70s. He went back to Sweden to wind down, but managed to make a decent comeback at club level. But zero international goals post 1975 should say something.

    Anyway, I don't want to be hating on two players who enjoyed an ATG-level peak. Just pointing out two examples on how hard it actually is to clock seven great seasons.
     
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  25. Titanlux

    Titanlux Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Nov 27, 2017
    In voting for the Ballon d'Or, three of the correspondents awarded him 3 points. The Spanish and the Swedish explain their choice due to their influence on the Yugoslav team; the Swiss does not give any explanation ...
    With the Schalke 04 he debuted in late October 1975 and his Kicker ratings were not brilliant for the rest of 1975.
    https://www.kicker.de/branko-oblak-12181/spieler/1-bundesliga/1975-76/fc-schalke-04-2
    With the Yugoslavia team he plays the 6 matches complete, losing the first qualification for the Euro Cup and winning the remaining 5 (4 of them qualifying for the Euro Cup) and scoring a goal in each of the two matches. Seeing the dates of those 6 games, they coincide with the end of the season in Yugoslavia and the beginning of the Bundesliga. This makes me think that his absence from games in both leagues may not be due to a possible injury but to a priority of the national team, although he could not rule out the first possibility ...
    In this link you can see how the 2 goals he scored with Hadjuk in 1974-75 he scored on the 2nd and the 6th matchday.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974–75_NK_Hajduk_Split_season
    In the European Cup and in the domestic cup he also scores in September.
    https://www.transfermarkt.co.in/spielbericht/index/spielbericht/1168834
    In the following link it can be seen that Oblak plays the first 7 games of the league and then does not do it anymore; therefore, during the calendar year 1975, he did not play any league matches with Hadjuk Split.
    https://hajduk.hr/utakmice/arhiva/prvenstvo/1974-75
    I have not been able to find out because he did not play more in the rest of the league; the last league game was at the end of June, although Oblak plays 4 games with the national team between April and June, when the Yugoslav league was still developing. Could it be that he spent half a year injured and once recovered he was only lined up to play the games with the national team ...? And why don't you play the first 10 games of the bundesliga ...?
    In any case, it is evident that his performances with Yugoslavia must have been brilliant.
     
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