A list of all time great players, and the pantheon of greatest ever

So thinking about this era in general I think I am going to add a few more English and Welsh players. England having the same number of players as a team like Belgium should be addressed based on the results head to head. Despite England having a low period here compared to previous and near future eras, I think compared to other countries at the time they deserve more players.

Right now I am thinking I will add Vizard for the Welsh and Buchan and Kelly to the English. I will detail their cases more later.

Another players I am interested in is the Bolton center half who won three FA Cups Jimmy Seddon. @peterhrt @comme do you have any information about this player?

I am also considering revisiting Argentina in this era. First I think Evaristo should be int he next era. His biggest achivements and fame come int he time from 1927-1931, most of that being inthe next era. @argentine soccer fan @msioux75 right now I am revisiting the resumes of Tarasconi, Seoane, and Medici. I think in these initial stages of the exercise I was being far more strict with applying the criteria than at later points. With Bidoglio, Tesoriere, and Libonatti in and Tarasconi, Seoane, and Medici getting another look do you think there are any other players I should consider?

 

Hungarian Players in this era.

I have issues with this era of Hungarian footballers in general. Some seem to have a high reputation in all time rankings etc. but the accomplishments of this group do not add up in my opinion. I need some explanation for how all this talent and greatness Hungary aparently had added up to so little success with the national team and in the Mitropa Cup, especially in the case of MTK.

Below are some all time lists of Hungarian players posted in different places I have found, I will highlight players from this era.

In 2013 a book was published in Hungarian, entitled "VÁLOGATOTT GYÜJTEMÉNY" i.e. "The best team". There is an interesting list compiled by Hungarian Football Federation (MLSZ).

HUNGARY XI All-time (2-1-2-5):

(GK): 1.GROSICS Gyula, 2.PLATKÓ Ferenc, 3.ZSÁK Károly, 4.SZABÓ Antal, 5.KIRÁLY Gábor, 6.HENNI Géza, 7.SZENTMIHÁLY Antal, 8.DOMONKOS László, 9.GÉCZI István, 10.GELEI József, 11.MÉSZÁROS Ferenc.

(DF R): 1.RUDAS Ferenc, 2.MÁTRAI Sándor, 3.FOGL II Károly, 4.MÁNDI Gyula, 5.BUZÁNSZKY Jenő, 6.NOVÁK Dezső, 7.KORÁNYI Lajos, 8.RUMBOLD Gyula, 9.POLGÁR Gyula, 10.KÁRPÁTI Béla, 11.TÖRÖK Péter.

(DF L): 1.BIRÓ Sándor, 2.SÁROSI László, 3.LANTOS Mihály, 4.BALOGH II Sándor, 5.IHÁSZ Kálmán, 6.FOGL III József, 7.DALNOKI Jenő, 8.TÓTH József, 9.JUHÁSZ Péter, 10.PAYER Imre, 11.STERNBERG László.

(MF R): 1.BOSZIK József, 2.NAGYMAROSI Mihály, 3.KOVÁCS Imre, 4.BUNDZSÁK Dezső, 5.SZALAY Antal, 6.SZOJKA Ferenc, 7.MATHESZ Imre, 8.NAGY István, 9.SOLYMOSI Ernő, 10.DUNAI III Ede, 11.DARDAI Pál.

(DF/MF C): 1.MÉSZÖLY Kálmán, 2.LÓRÁNT Gyula, 3.BÖRZSEY János, 4.PÁNCSICS Miklós, 5.SZÜCS Sándor, 6.KISPÉTER Mihály, 7.BÁLINT László, 8.KOVÁCS József, 9.VÁRHIDI Pál, 10.JUHÁSZ Roland, 11.DISZTL László.

(MF L): 1.ORTH György, 2.LÁZÁR Gyula, 3.SIPOS Ferenc, 4.KOTÁSZ Ferenc, 5.SZÜCS Lajos, 6.BERENDY Pál, 7.ZAKARIÁS József, 8.LAKAT Károly, 9.GARABA Imre, 10.BLUM Zoltán, 11.LIPCSEI Péter.

(RW): 1.SÁNDOR Károly, 2.FAZEKAS László, 3.BRAUN József, 4.KIPRICH József, 5.SAS Ferenc, 6.BUDAI II László, 7.MARKOS Imre, 8.TÁNCOS Mihaly, 9.EGRESI Béla, 10.SZÕKE István, 11.MOLNÁR Dezső.

(RI): 1.KOCSIS Sándor, 2.KUBALA László, 3.GÖRÖCS János, 4.VARGA Zoltán, 5.CSEH II László, 6.TAKÁCS II József, 7.SZUSZA Ferenc, 8.MACHOS Ferenc, 9.NYILASI Tibor, 10.KONRÁD II Kálmán, 11.KOCSIS Lajos.

(CFW): 1.ALBERT Flórián, 2.HIDEGKUTI Nándor, 3.SÁROSI György dr., 4.BENE Ferenc, 5.SCHAFFER Alfred, 6.TURAY József, 7.KALMÁR Jenő, 8.DÉAK Ferenc, 9.TÖRÕCSIK András, 10.PALOTÁS Péter, 11.SZILÁGYI Gyula.

(LI): 1.PUSKÁS Ferenc, 2.SCHLOSSER Imre, 3.ZSENGELLÉR Gyula, 4.TICHY Lajos, 5.FARKAS János, 6.TOLDI Géza, 7.OPATA Zoltán, 8.BODOLA Gyula, 9.DÉTÁRI Lajos, 10.DUNAI II Antal, 11.RÁKOSI Gyula.

(LW): 1.CZIBOR Zoltán, 2.KOHUT Vilmos, 3.TITKOS Pál, 4.ZÁMBÓ Sándor, 5.FENYVESI Máté dr., 6.VÁRADY Béla, 7.BORBÁS Gáspár dr., 8.NYERS István, 9.KOVÁCS Kálmán, 10.ESTERHÁZY Márton, 11.DZSUDZSÁK Balázs.

In 2010 Hungarian football magazine "FourFourTwo" voted among experts about the best players ever.

1. Puskás Ferenc 950
2. Bozsik József 904
3. Hidegkuti Nándor 859
4. Albert Flórián 848
5. Orth György 800
6. Kocsis Sándor 790
7. Kubala László 742
8. Sárosi György 736
9. Schlosser Imre 702
10. Zsengellér Gyula 642
11. Szusza Ferenc 633
12. Bene Ferenc 610
13. Nyilasi Tibor 593
14. Grosics Gyula 533
15. Czibor Zoltán 521
16. Lázár Gyula 520
17. Göröcs János 515
18. Détári Lajos 500
19. Deák Ferenc 483
20. Sándor Károly 467
21. Törőcsik András 453
22. Mészöly Kálmán 447
23. Farkas János 446
24. Tichy Lajos 433
25. Fazekas László 414
26. Varga Zoltán 378
27. Schaffer Alfréd 377
27. Toldi Géza 377
29. Sipos Ferenc 364
30. Mátrai Sándor 291
31. Bölöni László 284
32. Buzánszky Jenő 278
33. Titkos Pál 256
34. Nagymarosi Mihály 254
35. Zsák Károly 224
36. Kocsis Lajos 218
37. Lóránt Gyula 176
38. Cseh László 170
39. Takács József 166
40. Novák Dezső 156
41. Rudas Ferenc 153
42. Machos Ferenc 152
43. Fenyvesi Máté dr. 150
44. Bodola Gyula 140
45. Kovács Imre 137
46. Nyers István 133
47. Fogl Károly 125
48. Lantos Mihály 124
49. Budai László 121
50. Dunai Antal 119

This was the team chosen by the Hungarian Football Federation in 2013

-----------Grosics----------
Rudas - Meszoly - Biro
-------Boszik - Orth-------
Sandor - Albert - Czibor
------Kocsis - Puskas----

Their Second Team:

--------------Platko----------
Matrai - Lorant - Laszlo Sarosi
------Nagymarosi - Lazar-------
Fazekas - Hidegkuti- Kohut
-------Kubala - Schlosser-------

First off I will look at players in two groups, ones that played in Hungary, and those that were exports.

1) Players remaining in Hungary. Players who were consistently capped for the national team have the middling results of the team as part of their legacy. The results of the national team put them closer to the Switzerlands and Netherlands of this time as oppose to Austria, Spain, or even the Czechs.

Karoly Zsak, Goalkeeper, FC Budapest (Currenlty Out): A player of high reputation consistently rated in the top three Hungarian goalkeepers ever. Under my criteria I do not realyl see a case for him. Played at a small noncompetitive club. Was capped 30 times between 1912 and 1925. Capped inconsistently throughout most of him time with the team. His caps during the 1920 do correlate with some of Hungary's better results.

Karoly Fogl, Back Marking, Ujpest (Currently Out): Another player of high reputation within Hungary. Again I find it hard to make a good argument for him. He played at a club with no major achievements until the very end of his career when he was being fazed out of the team. He was capped 51 times from 1918 till 1929. His record in these 51 games was 25-7-19 with 90 goals allowed. The defense appears to be the weakness of the team. He is on the pitch for the 4-1 loss to Austria in 1921, the 4-2 loss to Switzerland in 1924, the 3-0 loss to Egypt in 1924, the 3-1 loss at home vs Belgium in 1925, the 6-2 loss to Sweden in 1925, the 4-2 loss to Spain in 1926, the 6-0 loss to Austria in 1927, the 5-1 loss to Austria in 1928, and the 3-0 loss to France in 1929. I find it hard to image putting a player as ATG who does not have club achievements, and main claim to a great resume of playing for a long time for an average national team where his position, defense seems to be the teams weakness.

Gyorgy Orth, Attacking Link, MTK (Currently In): I have a loose rule I implement where in these early eras there are countries that are a level below the top ones but still get results vs big teams now and then. Example from this era are the Netherlands, Switzerland, or Denmark. Hungary seems to be slightly above these teams but not by much. My rule with these teams is generally the one best player from this era should represent these countries. Abegglen for Switzerland, Denis for the Netherlands etc. Orth is clearly the player of Hungary for this era and is definitely in. He plays for the dominant domestic club. He plays 32 times for the national team that scores 79 goals in those games and the offense is clearly the strength of the team. Some might have thought of him as a pantheon candidate but he is far short of that in my eyes. Only getting about half the available caps during his career with a middling national team, and MTK's failure to make any impact int he Mitropa Cup leave him well short on proving his greatness at an international level that I would look for in a pantheon player.

Jozsef Braun, Wide Forward, MTK (Currently Out): He is mentioned along side Orth as the most talented and star player of the domestically dominant MTK. He is capped 28 times from 1918 to 1926. He has a history of injuries and I do not think he makes it to the seven season mark needed for ATG.

Zoltan Blum, Midfield Supporting, Ferencvaros (Currently Out): Not super familiar with this player. Plays 38 times for Hungary from 1912 to 1925. Had club success at the very beginning and end of his career, but the time of his prime years is barren for club achievement.

Vilmos Kertesz, Midfield Playmaker, MTK (Currently In): Although not featured on the lists above I liked this players resume and some things I read about him, but I could be convinced to change him out for another players. His started his career as a forward before moving to wing half for most of his career and playing in a far more attacking style from that position than other players of the time. I read he was the second most famous Hungarian footballer of his time behind Schlosser. Was capped 47 times for the national team from 1909 to 1924 and won nine domestic titles with MTK.

2) Exports: These players are harder to properly rate as they spend only a little time with the national team. Hungary has quite a few that have good careers in Hungary, then mostly abroad.

Ferenc Plattko, Goalkeeper, Vasas SC, MTK, Barcelona (Currently In): Rates highly in all time lists. Has two different short spells in Hungaryand replaces Zsak as starter in the national team both times. His appearances in the national team correlate with some of the best defensive performances. The team was an undefeated 5-1-0 with him in the team. With Barcelona he made his name winning multiple titles to great acclaim succeeding Zamora at the club.

Kalman Konrad, Forward Playmaker, MTK Austria Vienna (Currently Out): Capped 10 times between 1914 and 1919. Was part of the truly dominant MTK team in the late 1910s that featured Konrad, Schaffer, Schlosser, Braun, and Orth. He then played in Austria Vienna from 1920 until 1927 winning a fair amount as the star player for the second best club in the league. He returns to MTK and gets three more caps in the 1927/28 season. In some ways a similar resume to Plattko, but played in a slightly worse league in my eyes (Austrian and Spanish football seem on relatively similar levels but Spain import a fair number of strong players, while Konrad is the only foreign player of quality in Austria). Plattko is also more well known as one of the defining players in Spain then Konrad in Austria. Plattko's time with the national team is also more impressive vs a more diverse group of countries. Overall they are both near the borderline of in vs out.

Alfred Schaffer, Forward Goalscorer, MTK, Nurnberg, and other teams (Currently Out): He has a strong four season run in Hungary before he moves abroad and bounces from club to club, where everyone is impressed with his talent but he never really plays anywhere long enough to make an impact. Short of the seven seasons needed.

Ferenc Hirzer, Forward Playmaker, Torekves SE, Makkabi, Juventus, MTK (Currently Out): A player I feel has an interesting resume. From 1922 to 1924 become a locked in starter for the national team despite playing for small clubs playing 13 times in three seasons. The teams results are middling during this period (he is part of the 1924 Olympic failure). Then he moves to Juventus for two seasons where he is top scorer and champion. On his return to MTK in 1927 he wins another title in 1929 and is capped 20 more times from the 28 to the 32 season. He has a good goal scoring record during this time. I find him interesting in part becasue he is selected for such a high percentage of caps whenever he is available, far more than other forward like Orth or Braun.

I would enjoy hearing what @Ariaga II has read about these players or anyone else with knowledge. Why do you suggest Fogl over some of the other players listed. Right now I have in Orth, Plattko, and Kertesz in but this could easily change. I am also thinking that Takacs may belong in this era as oppose to the next one.

Overall I am iffy on putting in too many more player that played most of the era for Hungary (right now I am at two player with Orth and Kertesz and I think I would like to keep it that way, especially with Takacs maybe coming to this era, so I could be convinced that Kertesz should be replaced with a different player that remained at home and I could be convinced for other players that went abroad along with Plattko), as the national teams performance does not seem to warrant it.

 

I will be interested to here what you think about Takacs and Kohut in the later 20s. I am also interested to here what happened in the 13-1 win vs France in 1927.

 

Would you overall rate Fogl as the best performer in the national team up until 1926 over Orth and Braun etc?

 

Changes I am going to make to this era.

Hungary

Jozsef Takacs moved to this era from the one after this.

Vilmos Kertesz removed.

Karoly Fogl added.

Kalman Konrad added.

Britain

Ted Vizard added

Charles Buchan added

Bob Kelly added

Argentina

Juan Evaristo moved to next era

Segundo Medici added

Domingo Tarasconi added

 

Also looking closer at Germany's record they deserve to have a player listed.

Hans Kalb appears to qualify and be their best player.

 

Country

Italy (8)
Austria (6)
Argentina (6)
England (6)
Czechoslovakia (6)
Hungary (5)
Scotland (3)
Germany (3)
Switzerland (2)
Uruguay (2)
Spain (2)
Netherlands (2)
Wales (1)
Belgium (1)
Republic of Ireland (1)
Northern Ireland (1)
Denmark (1)
Norway (1)
Yugoslavia (1)
France (1)

More thoughts to come.

 

Things generally look appropriate with Argentina a little over represented, with 4 being there more true number with Monti and Orsi achieving far more with Italy.

I think that Wales probably deserves another players based on winning three home championships during the decade. I will have to look into options some more.

 

I feel with Uruguay winning in 1930, and 1935 they make sense as a candidate for more players, as they know have Castro and Fernandez. There are not a whole lot of other players who were part of both of these wins (Nassazi was but he is of the previous era). One of the only other players who who was part of both was the goalkeeper Enrique Ballestrero. From what I have seen he does not seem to have the current day reputation as Mazali, but his resume on paper seems as good or better. @msioux75 @Vegan10 or anyone else who might have information, what is the reputation of this player?

 

Speaking of Uruguay candidates an obvious one is Gestido, but I have a big question about his career. Are there any known reasons why after 1930 he only plays in friendlies?

After the 1930 World Cup he plays 12 more times all the way until 1940, but he does not play a single game in the 1935, 37, or 39 SACs.

 

I have only made a few small changes for the Interwar era, removing Kohut and adding Avar for Hungary, and adding Ballestrero for Uruguay.

 

8) WWII and South American Golden Age ~ 1938-1947

Country

Argentina (11)
Italy (6)
Brazil (4)
Hungary (3)
Sweden (3)
Uruguay (3)
Germany (2)
West Germany (2)
England (2)
France (2)
Austria (2)
Czechoslovakia (1)
Switzerland (1)
Norway (1)
Republic of Ireland (1)
Northern Ireland (1)
Peru (1)
Spain (1)
Netherlands (1)
Chile (1)
Belgium (1)
Scotland (1)

This is a tough era to figure out Europe and the balance of power. In South America I think the balance of power is close to appropriate with Uruguay and Brazil slightly underrepresented, but for good reason. Both of those countries best players in this era have a lot of longevity and ended up in the next era (Zizinho, Jairm Ademir, O. Varela). I am still considering a couple of players for those countries.

As far as Europe goes I think Italy being the highest makes some sense, especially when you project forward how well the team was playing immediately after the 1938 WC and how young the team was with Piola, Biavati, Rava, Foni, and others primed for another World Cup cycle. Then you have the Torinio generation as well who I have very lightly represented. I might look at a few of their players again.

Hungary and Sweden having three players each also makes sense. There really seems to be a great lost Hungarian generation here, where internally many lesser known players are ranked highly in all time Hungary lists (see the rankings of players like Nagymarosi, Rudus, Szucs, Szusza, etc in my previous post). I may give them some more thought as Hungary, like Italy seemed primed for another World Cup run in 1942 and then having another generation ready for 46 and 50, similar to the Torino generation in Italy.

England is one I need to look at more considering their strength immediately before and after the war, but some of the top players like Lawton have so little longevity it is hard to find a way for them to be in, but I am willing to give more credence to wartime football for players who proved themselves either post or pre war as well (see my inclusion of Carter).

I am open to all suggestion for balancing this era.

 

I am going to review the credentials of the England war time generation for candidate players that I do not yet have in the ATG ranking. I will treat the wartime internationals and tour matches as the same internationals and try to include club matches during wartime as they can be found. By combining wartime and pre/post war matches I hope to get a better look at longevity as it pertains to 7 seasons of significant contribution.

English players who played during war time that I have already included

Interwar Era
Brook
Hapgood

WWII Era
Matthews
Carter

Post War Era
Wright
Mortenson
Finney

Players will give give further analysis as described above

Hardwick
Franklin
Lawton
Mannion
Cullis
Mercer
Scott
Swift

 

George Hardwick

1942/43 Plays in 3 of 5 Internationals
1943/44 Plays in 3 of 5 Internationals
1944/45: Plays in 10 of 12 Internationals
1945/46: Plays in 5 of 7 Internationals
1946/47: Plays in 8 of 8 Internationals
1947/48 Plays in 5 of 6 Internationals

His club career is really not of any consequence, Middlesbrough does not win any regional or cup competitions during the war and is mid table at best post war before Hardwick moves to Division III Oldham. At an absolute maximum I think there are only six seasons of significant positive contribution here. I am inclined to keep him out.

 

Neil Franklin

1944/45 Plays in 7 of 12 Internationals
1945/46: Plays in 6 of 7 Internationals
1946/47: Plays in 8 of 8 Internationals, 37 league game 4th place
1947/48 Plays in 6 of 6 Internationals, 35 league games 15th place
1948/49 Plays in 7 of 8 Internationals, 36 league games 11th place
1949/50 Plays in 5 of 10 Internationals, 34 league games 19th place

Similar to Hardwick in that the absolute maximum argument for significant seasons is six in my eyes. I am inclined to keep him out.

 

Tommy Lawton

1937/38 Internationals 7:0(0), League 39(28) 14th place
1938/39 Internationals 8:8(6), League 38(34) 1st place
1939/40 Internationals 5:2(1), 3rd place West league unknown appearances/goals
1940/41 Internationals 4:1(1), unknown results wartime league
1941/42 Internationals 5:3(5), unknown results wartime league
1942/43 Internationals 5:2(1), unknown results wartime league
1943/44 Internationals 5:4(8), unknown results wartime league
1944/45 Internationals 12:9(11), unknown results wartime league
1945/46 Internationals 7:5(1), unknown results wartime league, FA Cup 5th round 6(1)
1946/47 Internationals 8:8(10), League 34(26) 15th place, FA Cup 4th round 5(4)
1947/48 Internationals 6:6(6), 27(22) 1st and 3rd divisions, FA Cup Semifinal 5(6)

Very interesting to puzzle through.

38/39 and 46/47 are sure things. 37/38 being leagues top scorer despite no caps is good in my book. 47/48 is also good despite his move to the 3rd division as he made the FA Cup semifinal with a third division team and scored 6 goals in 6 games internationally.

That is four solid seasons. From wartime 43/44 and 44/45 are solid. Outside of that I am not sure which other seasons you can make a case for. Probably 41/42 and maybe 45/46?

There is a case for seven seasons with 38, 39, 42, 44, 45, 47, and 48.

I would love more information on his wartime career. Maybe 46 and 43 are also viable?

Still undecided on his inclusion.