The next point of discussion is how a 2nd division would even be created. Established clubs already exist within each state however will they suffice? What if completely new territory was to be unearthed as the newest point for football hysteria to begin? In this case I bring two ideas to the table: My ideas for Promotion and Relegation* *The following ideas are based on the notion that the A-League only has the 10 official teams from the 2009/2010 season in its top tier, as follows: Sydney FC, Melbourne Victory, Adelaide United, Perth Glory, Newcastle Jets, Central Coast Mariners, Brisbane Roar, North Queensland Fury and Gold Coast United. State League based 2nd Division Using a State League based 2nd Division is more of an olive branch to "old soccer" than anything else however it's also a great idea for many reasons. Specifically the fact that State League clubs already have a solid history behind them via the NSL days and therefore have a prominent (if slightly dormant), supporter base. State League clubs also have their own amenities that could be refurbished for A-League entry and many usually have their own (social) clubs and training facilities. Unfortunately the only negative about this idea is that it forces the inclusion of what the FFA has been distancing itself from since the A-League's inception: ethnicity. Or rather the prominent and sometimes violent clashes resulting from ethnic pride. Yes, much of it was blown out of proportion by a very anti-soccer media and yes, not all clubs were responsible for the stories we hear nowadays when looking back at the NSL's history, however the fact remains that ethnicity was a very real source of dispute for some clubs and that is also alienated plenty of "non-ethnic" Australians from being involved in "old soccer". In my opinion a State League module would have to take into account the following important factors of each club if it were to become a success: Club Finances Team Sponsorship Projected Crowd Figures Ground Amenities (including seating, etc) Off-field Amenities (training facilities and social clubs, etc) Club Memberships Obviously most of these are straightforward - if a club has neither the support nor the facilities to be semi-professional, it should be dismissed from contention to be apart of the 2nd Division. I would very much like to see a 2nd Division of at least 8 teams, perhaps covering most, if not all of the states and territories, however this may not be financially feasible. In my mind the clubs with the finances and amenities available to make a serious stab at being in the 2nd Division would be (in no order of merit): Sydney Olympic (NSW) Sydney United (NSW) Marconi Stallions (NSW) Brisbane Strikers (QLD) Sunshine Coast FC (QLD) Sunshine George Cross FC (Vic) South Melbourne (Vic) Preston Lions (Vic) Green Gully SC (Vic) Heidelberg United (Vic) Melbourne Knights (Vic) Adelaide City (SA) Canberra City (ACT) Canberra FC (ACT) Of course from there a finer examination of sustainability would have to be looked into, however all of these teams can be adequate starters for a 2nd Division. New 2nd Division (Ethnically Cleansed?) A more difficult approach would be for the FFA to examine the population centres around Australia closely and create a new division from scratch. This would be extremely difficult and problematic, as most teams may be simply second or third teams from larger capital cities (such as Sydney and Melbourne). While New South Wales and Victoria might be able to support such an expansion and still be able to support an A-League franchise, other states would find it far more difficult (Western Australia and South Australia, to name two, and Queensland to a much lesser extent). The positives of this idea would be that the FFA would continue to distance itself from the ethnically charged NSL and make a 2nd division more accessible to "non-ethnic" Australians. The negatives are obvious in that it is far harder to create a supporter base than it is to prop up an already existing one. At this rate a suitable 2nd Division involving brand new teams would most likely be: Wollongong/Southern Coast (NSW) Western Sydney (NSW) Melbourne 2 (Vic) Perth 2 (WA) Hobart/Launceston (Tas) Adelaide 2 (SA) Sunshine Coast (QLD) Canberra (ACT) In Adelaide and Perth the FFA will have to push their product exceptionally well and pull the team away from the Perth Glory/Adelaide United centres of support in order for the 2nd Division team to grow its own support base and identity. Even though that would be a priority I highly believe that supporters of football in general would watch a local 2nd Division team if their own was not playing at home that weekend, so it may work out well for the Adelaide and Perth bids... Mixed 2nd Division A reasonable approach would be to take the more qualified bastions of the former NSL and integrate them into a new 2nd Division with brand new teams (let's say, four from each list). In this instance the proverbial olive branch would still be handed over (albeit to only a limited set of clubs), however the FFA could also retain the identity of providing clubs that are more in tune with the new football supporter in Australia who doesn't have any ethnic ties. Trimming the State League list would also serve the FFA well as only the strongest clubs would be allowed to join, thus the notion of sustainability would be assumably stronger. Below I've listed who I believe the strongest clubs and potential new bidders would be to form this 2nd Division: State League Melbourne Knights (Vic) Marconi Stallions (NSW) Sydney Olympic (NSW) Adelaide City (SA) New Franchises Canberra (ACT) South Coast (NSW) Melbourne 2 (Vic) Hobart/Launceston (Tas) Honestly it's hard to choose so few State League teams, because honestly there's another two at least that could easily adapt to a 2nd Division, however that might be a case for expansion later, rather than sooner. In this case I highly believe that the teams listed would have the best chances of being successful in a 2nd Division. In this style of 2nd Division an ACT team is given the chance to enter a national competition, but more importantly a Tasmanian team is given participation as well. I'd figure games would be shared between Launceston and Hobart, thus having two supporter groups between the one team and strengthening the image of football across Tasmania. Well, there's my piece for now anyway. I look forward to what you, the lovers of Australia football, past and present, think of them. And I also highly anticipate your own ideas and thoughts being added to the mix.
Re: The Indefinite Promotion/Relegation Thread as you pointed out earlier it'll never work because we simply do not have the population, interest, or talent base for it to work in the forseeable future. Australia would have to become as rabid about football as victorians and south australians are about AFL, and though the future of the game is bright here in oz its really never going to get to that level for a long, long time. It is dissapointing this is the case because I think that pro/rel is one of the most interesting things with the big leagues....
Re: The Indefinite Promotion/Relegation Thread Why would you think that the Australian sporting culture is "Americanised"? I don't know anything about rugby, but aussie rules has had the same format for well over a hundred years. I doubt that Americans had anything to do with it because it wasn't until world war 2 that there was any significant American influence in this country. Also, representing your country is considered the ultimate honour in Australia. I don't beleive the same can be said of America. Back to the issue of pro/rel, it can be seen all over the world that support always goes to the top teams in the top division. This invariably leads to a monopoly on success (man u, arsenal, liverpool, celtic, rangers, real madrid, barcelona, ac milan, juventus, inter milan). All the other teams in those leagues are playing for hopefully a spot in a euro cup, or simply to avoid relegation. In the case of the premier league, 80% of the teams wouldn't have had winning the title as their goal at the start of the season. And they can't try to build a team to challenge for the title, because of the threat of relegation. AFL and NRL teams, by way of salary caps and no pro/rel, can try to build a team over the course of a few years to challenge for the title. I follow AFL and A-League, and I would hate for my aussie rules team to be in the position where they build a team solely for the purpose of avoiding relegation, without ever trying to win the flag. One last point about this is that sport clubs in Australia are largely membership based. Most AFL teams aren't even privately owned. By and large, I don't think Aussies like the idea of a wealthy owner simply buying success. Attitudes are different in Europe and America, but Australians like a level playing field. I would also like to know whether pro/rel is a FIFA mandate, or simply an AFC mandate. I don't think every league in the world has pro/rel (possibly not South Korea?)
Re: The Indefinite Promotion/Relegation Thread I agree, I don't think Australia could stand the idea of a competition with a few clubs having a monopoly. I think that for any pro/rel system to work, there has to be shared television revenues between leagues, as opposed to the English system, which results in half of all clubs relegated after only a year. I also think that some form of financial regulation must be imposed. Since this can't be a straight out cap (otherwise there would be nothing to stop big clubs from going down) I still think that the luxury tax idea, where the more a club pays its own players, the more it is forced to pay other clubs, is feasible. Since it was implemented in the USA with professional baseball, it has allowed clubs like the Yankees to keep winning lots of games, but not winning every year, or even close to every year.
Re: The Indefinite Promotion/Relegation Thread Now I absolutely wanted to touch on this with everyone. It's clear in my mind that in order for the A-League not to be monopolised by only a few teams (such as the English, Portuguese, Spanish and Italian leagues), we must continue to use a salary cap season and enforce a modicum of equality between all teams in each separate division. If we allow a capitalist system to evolve it would most certainly spell doom for repeat mid-table teams and lower. If a salary cap is maintained in the coming years it would matter far less to any Aussie whether the club he supports is owned by one or ten different people. This isn't a Rabbitohs type of moment whereby you have the real threat of fans leaving a club simply because it isn't "blue collar" enough and owned by wealthy people/a wealthy person. Regardless it all comes down to the advent of the salary cap. Beyond that limit having more money than the opposition starts to mean less and less. I believe that the discussion over Pro/Rel is attuned to the fact that Australia could receive more spots in the ACL if we were to try and incorporate a 2nd division into Australian football. At the moment the ACL (and reaching the last stages thereof), is a kind of financial mecca for Australian teams, especially since the prizemoney now dwarves previous year's sums.
Re: The Indefinite Promotion/Relegation Thread You bored CM? Nice thread, but like the whole idea of promotion and relegation in Australia, I don't think its going anywhere fast! We don't have the population, the finances nor the player base to sustain any form of a National second tier league at the moment. Maybe down the track we may, but I can't see this happening anytime soon, whether its wanted by the ACL or not. We can look at other leagues and rationalise how we'd go as much as we like- but it won't work here. We have an entire population of 20 odd million and at the moment we're punching above our weights in terms of the National Team and really the A-League, in our efforts in Asia. We have to keep it small and manageable and realistic, and for that, the status quo will remain- well at least for a decade or so.
Re: The Indefinite Promotion/Relegation Thread Bored? Nah, just a late morning and it occurred to me that this would be a nice thread to start By the way you hear Lowy talking about it you'd imagine the spanner was already tightening the bolts and readying the rocket for lift off. I'm in the same boat as you, though, that it simply isn't realistic at this point in time. But imagine if our little, lucky country could actually manage it. That'd throw the footballing world for a loop.
Re: The Indefinite Promotion/Relegation Thread how about Step 1:Uniformity having a organising uniformity across the main state comps(WA SA VIC QLD NSW) ie - a national salary cap @ 400K - a uniform schedule complementing the a-league and a summer season - a proper licensing system for clubs (licenses renewed after each season) - a proper transfer system Step 2: the A-league owns the stadium deals and player contracts(not including imports and marques)instead of clubs Step 3: Qualification and "Relegation" Introduce a "free" 1 season A-League licenses to the main state comp champions. The club after the "free" season will either pay 250k + forfiet next seasons tv monnies for the next season license or play in the state comp Step 4: Ending multi season licenses & extending the "free" licenses to all clubs bar the bottom 5 while still offering them the option presented in Step 3 (pay or play in state comp). The state champions will still be comming in to the league even if the bottom 5 pay
Re: The Indefinite Promotion/Relegation Thread 2 be honest dis is how it should turn out A-League Sydney FC Melbourne Victory Adelaide United Brisbane Roar Perth Glory Newcstle United Jets Central Coast Mariners Melbourne 2 Gold Coast United North Queensland Fury since wellington may be kiked out due to afc and fifa regarding them as foreign to a national comp, and will most probably never let them enter the asian champions league ( which means they got nuffing to play for basically ) melbourne 2 ( melbourne Heart) would come in A-League 2 West Sydney Canberra FC South Coast FC Tasmania United Sydney United Melbourne Knights South Melbourne Adelaide City that is how it should be implemented and maybe just in time with the 2018 or 2022 world cup that we host, which would definatly boost football in the nation, which will be a great time to start this, as it is riding the wave of our world cup campaign success
Re: The Indefinite Promotion/Relegation Thread I've always thought that if Wellington ever managed to get into a spot where they would qualify for the ACL, why don't they just play a two leg, home and away against the qualifier from New Zealand? This would take some pre-agreement from both leagues.
FFA looking into national second tier http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sport/ffa-ponders-second-tier-competition-20101123-185j4.html Not really sure this is a good idea but maybe if they incorporate the state leagues into the A-League it could work (basically the winner of each league would enter into a playoff and the winner would get promoted...well that is my thought at least).
Re: FFA looking into national second tier FFA is looking into a national second division the same way MLS is looking into going to a fall-spring schedule. Just long enough to appease some of the World Cup voters. I'm sure as soon as the announcement is made I'm sure it will fade back into oblivion for an appropriate number of years.
Re: FFA looking into national second tier I guess since Qatar got the WC in 2022, this is a death issue correct? Do you guys have expansion fees for your league?
Re: FFA looking into national second tier AFC requirement I know, but can they force Australia into it? A tournament for State champions is a good Idea. But this would hurt the Expansion fee business/scheame! Hopefully Australian is not into fleecing new teams like we do here in the USA.
Re: FFA looking into national second tier This is too much, we havent got enough god players for this, were not england, most of our good young uns are playing other codes.
Re: FFA looking into national second tier The theory is that if you have a second tier you can give the players that aren't good enough for A-League yet the opportunity to continue to play soccer and perhaps improve their ability so that they become good enough to play for A-League.
Re: FFA looking into national second tier It's been more often the case with our expansion clubs that they fleece the League.
Re: FFA looking into national second tier And in the second tier you may have clubs that are three times poorer than ones in top flight – but still able to survive. Furries would approve.
Will and Should The A-League Have Promotion and Relegation With A Lower League? http://avoidingthedrop.com/2011/10/...-under-promotion-and-relegation-in-australia/ is titled "What Goes Up Must Come Down Under: Promotion and Relegation in Australia" and says AFC wants Australia to have promotion and relegation.
Re: Will and Should The A-League Have Promotion and Relegation With A Lower League? pro/rel to/from what?
Re: A-League- Promotion and Relegation Thread? AFC requires all federations to have pro/rel, among other things. Supposedly one of the reasons why K-League is going to be implementing pro/rel is because AFC was going to ban them from AFC Champions League if they didn't. Of course, K-League had a league that it could pro/rel with, not that they did. K-League also had a large enough first division that they could split in half. A-League doesn't have a large enough league to do split in half, but I'm also doubting that the teams down in the state leagues could survive up in A-League, or vice versa. Might also explain why AFC isn't threatening to ban A-League teams from AFCCL yet.
Because the A-League is a relatively new league the AFC is giving us more time to sort out pro/rel (2015 rings a bell, don't quote me though). The issue of pro/rel has been bashed out in other threads (maybe the expansion thread?). Pretty much; most people agree that we have get the current teams in the A-League settled and financially stable before even thinking of expanding the A-League let alone pro/rel.