A Better World is Possible.

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Mel Brennan, Jul 4, 2005.

  1. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  2. Own Goal Hat-Trick

    Jul 28, 1999
    ColoRADo
    nice thought, but will never be embraced in the united states.
     
  3. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    For whom?

    Is it wrong to make the world a better place for the people I surround myself with first and everyone else second? If so, why? Why am I bad if I don't go out of my way to make the world a better place for everyone else first? Not to say I do things to make it a worse place, mind you, but to not dedicate as much time as otheres dictate towards the bulk of the populace. Why is it considered bad to want to live a fun, comfortable life for myself and my loved ones first and think of everyone else after my own have been taken care of?
     
  4. Mikeshi

    Mikeshi New Member

    Jul 14, 2004
    Jasper,Ga
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Yeah that 'requires reading' thing is too big a chasm to bridge.
     
  5. Coach_McGuirk

    Coach_McGuirk New Member

    Apr 30, 2002
    Between the Pipes
    I think I'll host a political salon just so I can draw out a few socialists, liberal democrats, and various other lefty types.

    Then I'm going to report all of them to the Department of Homeland Security... ;)
     
  6. Mikeshi

    Mikeshi New Member

    Jul 14, 2004
    Jasper,Ga
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This argument made sense in an earlier post, but I'm not sure you should make it a universally applicable mantra. Some things that can be done are little different from what you do now. Once they are changed you never notice the difference. It may be just a matter of changing habits. It makes little difference to you whether you piss in a hole or straight into the river, but it makes a big difference to those downstream. So just piss in the hole. You would want your upstream neighbors to do the same for you. If the reservoir is running low should you water your lawn when you may not have enough to even drink tomorrow. Run the AC on 50F when you may not have the power to light a bulb tomorrow. You are not necessarily making a better place for your kith and kin simply by living the high life. Many changes involve small sacrifice and may actually preserve your way of life. But of course there is no absolute saying you have to.

    Why should a chemical company go out of its way to properly dispose waste instead of dumping it in the river. It's easier on them just to dump, but it may be you and yours that drink or bath in that water. Wouldn't you want them to change? In your argument they shouldn't have to if they don't want? Why drive a vehicle that gets 5 mpg with enough fuel for 5 years at that rate when you can drive a vehicle that gets 50 mpg and have enough for 50 years. A little less power, but a lifetime of driving. Sometimes the things you do for to maintain a hedonistic lifestyle have adverse consequences on others and yourself. And changes made help you and others.

    You have no responsibility to others and there is not one universal law so you can do whatever you want for as long as you can get away with it. So society and individuals create and shift our rights and wrongs. Why should society allow you to waste their resources? Are you completely separate from society that you do not have to answer to them for anything. Should there be no limitations to your fun? Is nothing that you do wrong or could do wrong or criminal? Your enjoyable lifestyle is the result of fruits produced by society and not your own hand. So as you enjoy its fruits you must have some responsibility to it also. Whether you accept it or not if your enjoyment of life has negative consequences on society shouldn't they alter them. Isn't it better to see the best way to enjoy and thrive and work towards that than to be forced to or fight over it. Otherwise you could just live in a tree and eat grubs and have fun to your hearts content.

    So it may be best that society finds ways to improve itself. Is it beyond us as human beings to create a better world and also live an enjoyable life? Could creating a better world be the path to a more enjoyable life? We have the ability to be logical beyond a limited scope of selfishness. We invest money as a sacrifice to future gain and greater enjoyment, so why not invest in the environment or society in the same way in order to enjoy the boon of this investment.

    You are not bad by a higher standard for being selfish. You are not bad by your own standard. But when your actions have consequences on others, is it then wrong for them to consider you bad. If you are hurting me by your enjoyment is it wrong for me to consider you bad. That is why you could be considered bad. You live within a world where you and yours are not absolutely isolated from him and his. Just because you can't see him from your house doesn't mean your actions have no consequence on his own enjoyment. So as much as I may want to be separate from man and nature does not mean I should be so shortsighted as to see no benefit to my participation in their being improved. So you are not bad by any higher judge or yourself, but you could justly be considered bad by those you may deprive from their enjoyment by your actions.
     
  7. Mikeshi

    Mikeshi New Member

    Jul 14, 2004
    Jasper,Ga
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Your first two words may be a bit of a stretch.
     
  8. Coach_McGuirk

    Coach_McGuirk New Member

    Apr 30, 2002
    Between the Pipes
    Nice. What was it about that one post that led you to that conclusion?
     
  9. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    No no, the general idea of your post is right.

    What I was saying was why should I hold myself to anyone else's standards? I have a certain amount of moral decency in my blood. I'm not going to go out an do something that I know is malicious to another person just because it makes my life easier. I'm not gonna choose to piss in the ricer upstream from a village that drinks that water.

    My point was more of a why do I need to go out of my way to help others (outside of my circle) first? Why am I a bad person if I feel that it's important to give my family a comfortable cusion in life before thinking of everyone else?

    People are people. Some have been shat on and some have been few with a silver spoon. We don't choose which one we are from birth. But what we can do is choose to live the life we want to live. We can choose to dedicate our entire lives to helping others or we can make a nice comfortable lifing, lifve in a big house, take care of the people around us and if we feel like it, then help other people. Personally, I like to help other people. I wouldn't have the organization I have if I didn't. But far be it for me to tell someone else they need to follow my lead. I help other people cause I enjoy it. And since I feel that I am put on this planet to have fun, then I'm doing what I like to do. I don't care if others don't look at life the same way. All I hope is that they don't do things that intenionally harm others.
     
  10. christopher d

    christopher d New Member

    Jun 11, 2002
    Weehawken, NJ
    Nope. By expanding that circle to include your immediate community, though, you're well on your way to doing your part to circumvent globalism. Shop at a local grocer, buy food based on the distance traveled to get from farm to table, shop at stores which treat your neighbors who work there with respect, purchase goods that are made near you, with labor that is paid rates that your neighbors wouldn't have to starve to compete with... All good ways to pitch in.
    Who says you're bad? The .pdf was addressed toward those interested in reducing the negative effects of globalization. If you're not in that audience, fine.
     
  11. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    I like this review from Amazon:

     
  12. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I appreciate you both engaging your fellow posters and beginning to substantively engage the pdf.

    I'd like folks to challenge the pdf, and tell me why these approaches ought to be challenged. IOW, who stands fast and stands tall for the opposites/alternatives to the things mentioned in the pdf, many of which are employed in the corporatised vision of what globalism can be today?

    I'm sure you're out there; tell us why, in countering the pdf, you stand against the pdf, and its establishing the primacy of humans, and the permaculture of human habitat in context of a spectrum of habitats, and the re-shaping of local-to-global energies for beings, in the globalising dynamic.
     
  13. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    I've never quite understood the anti-globalisation movement, if someone could clarify I'd be grateful. I mean surely, globalisation can actually be a good thing to a great many people. If globalisation means that a Senegalese farmer can sell tomatoes to a Dutch supermarket, then what's wrong with that? If globalisation means that multinationals move their production to other regions and as such create employment there, what's wrong with that?

    I just think that regions should do what they're good at. It's unrealistic for densely populated and expensive Europe to invest in intensive farming, for example. I for one couldn't care less if my cucumbers come from a nearby farm or from an African farm.
     
  14. MattR

    MattR Member+

    Jun 14, 2003
    Reston
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Thank you for admitting that the real reason that peace and equality will never come to fruition is selfishness and the belief that the individual, and perhaps the immediate family is supreme. As long as I got mine, screw you.
    Very noble.

    The main cases against globalization include the social and cultural differences. While you may believe that your cucumber is just as yummy, you may not have agreed to the cucumber if it was picked by 7 year old children who work 16 hour days, are regularly beaten, and are sold to the farms by their starving families.

    Not to mention that group of family-owned farms outside of town will have to sell to developers, and the population will increase, and then the option of locally-grown produce will no longer exist!

    Transportation is a big problem as well. With energy (oil) getting more expensive, shipping that cucumber a couple of thousand miles seems fine now, but if oil continues to get more expensive, it makes little sense to ship something a few thousand miles that could have been grown just out of town.

    Anti-Globalization, in a nutshell, is about communities. Communities where food is grown, products are made, children are raised. Dependant communities where individuals rely on other individuals, and the sense of community is preserved. Keeping jobs at home, ensuring community standards of health and employment are met, these are important.

    This whole "my family is self sufficient" is the biggest bunch of crap Americans feed themselves. Most Americans can't survive an hour and a half without air conditioning.
     
  15. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Anti-globalisation" doesn't really exist in this work; as it states, there are alternatives to economic globalization that produce substantively different results. But there are also things that these folks would love to see globalized, like the ability to eat healthy meals and drink clean water everyday.
     
  16. Nanbawan

    Nanbawan Member

    Jun 11, 2004
    Haute Bretagne
    Club:
    Stade Rennais FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I did not buy it but I enjoyed having a peek in book stores.

    [​IMG]

    José Bové must be killed !

    Left banner : The World isn't a consumer good ; Right : An other World, it aint gonna be possible.

    [​IMG]

    No need to translate...

    [​IMG]

    This book isn't a consumer good.

    _ José ?
    _ Yes, Mike ?
    _ I'm hungry.​
     
  17. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    And who decides what grocers treat their employees better than others? I know people that work at WlMart. This is a company most people assume treat all their employees like ********. Yet people I know actually enjoy working there. So clearly we can't trust the people that work there to tell us if they like being employed at WalMart. Should we only shop at companies that you deem acceptable because you say so?
     
  18. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    No it can't, Johan. The anti-globalization people said so, so therefore it's bad. You are not to make your own decision here. You are not the one that gets to make up your own mind based on your own experiences. You are to listen to the higher powers only. They are right. We are wrong.
     
  19. Nanbawan

    Nanbawan Member

    Jun 11, 2004
    Haute Bretagne
    Club:
    Stade Rennais FC
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Yeah, I'm just fed up with living in a world solely dictated by anti-globalization... :rolleyes:
     
  20. amerifolklegend

    amerifolklegend New Member

    Jul 21, 1999
    Oakley, America
    Why is compromise not an option?

    Why must there only be giant companies or small companies?
     
  21. CosmosKramer

    CosmosKramer Member

    Sep 24, 2000
    Yokohama
    Club:
    Yokohama F Marinos
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The reason people resist globalization is because they are aware of what it really is, and what it's implications are. The author clarifies nicely:

    "Together these instruments are bringing about the most fundamental redesign of the planet's social, economic, and political arrangements since the industrial revolution. They are engineeering a power shift, of stunning proportions, moving real economic and political power away from national, state, and local governments and communities toward unprecedented centralization of power for global corporations, bankers and the global bureaucracies they helped create, at the expense of national sovereignty, community control, democracy, diversity, and the natural world."

    Refuse to become a mere consumer. The best place to effect change is in oneself and in one's own immediate surroundings.
     
  22. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think that this, a refutation of the "vote with your wallet" mentality so embraced by some, is the main point I try to get across. I argue for becoming the fullest, most complete citizen and steward, local to global, that one can.

    I think that we need to understand that those who argue against that, who argue FOR the current framework of globalization, argue AGAINST that becoming, and FOR a reduction of humanity into solely consumer units, and individualised ones at that.

    Why in the world would any human being, upon reflection, ever CHOOSE to be like that? Only when the idea is sold to that human being that in such individualistic isolation lies the path to escape the unwashed and get behind the gates of the protected community of Betters. The promoted worthiness of that myth, that illusion, itself definitively hateful of the true interdependent nature of the observable knowable universe, is what drives this whole project in the form it currently inhabits, imv.
     
  23. Matt in the Hat

    Matt in the Hat Moderator
    Staff Member

    Sep 21, 2002
    Brooklyn
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My thought. This once again asserts that purchase power and voting are the same thing, even if you hate when its put that way.
     
  24. vivzig

    vivzig New Member

    Oct 4, 2004
    The OC
    I think maybe you're missing the point, quoted nicely above [cuts down even further...]
    Rail as you would against our political system (and I do), but the power is there for us to change, though it is fraught with inertia. Our elected leaders, despite the small field of players, the Skull&Bones connections, all the corruption, etc etc and so forht, they are still (theoretically) beholden to us.

    Corporations, large or small, owe nothing to anyone but the bottom line. When they are cut loose from regulation and able to pit nations against one another, nobody wins except those particular executives and shareholders. Even the workers don't win--local job competition keeps enticements, salaries, and incentives high, if that disappears because the government cannot intercede, they lose as well.

    I may not like the other party if I lose an election, but at least I was able to participate in the process.
     
  25. vivzig

    vivzig New Member

    Oct 4, 2004
    The OC
    Puchasing power is only power to those able to purchase, and becomes meaningless when living in a monopolistic community.
     

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