9/9 US vs. Brazil - the Defense - Post Game Discussion [R]

mvann, you need to check out the match threads at YA from when Gooch was at Newcastle last year. Don't expect Jaypro to be grounded in the real world when Gooch is the subject of the conversation.

Well, that's rational.

 

I don't know about that yet, but it's certainly time to see more of him until he proves otherwise, and less of Bornstein.

Biggest problem I have with our defense is all the aimless balls, often under little pressure. How about a short pass, push up, receive the ball back, play under control. OK, of course we're not Brazil but we could at least make the aimless ball ratio 4:1 instead of 10:1.

 

The only problem I have with the guy is that he continues to play poorly and I don't believe he should be our first choice CB.

The penalty could've went either way and he got caught ball watching on the set piece. I watched Titus Bramble for 5 years and Boumsong for 2 years and Gooch shares something with both of those players and that's the inability to concentrate for a full 90 mins. It does the team no good if your solid for 87 minutes and utter crap for 3 minutes and cause the team to lose.

 

Dude, watch it again. Howard was completely blinded because Bobby Convey ducked his head out of the way at the last second. If Convey would have not been on the wall, Howard would have seen it and saved it. He acted as a screen. He might as well have been a Brazil player doing that purposely.

Seriously, Convey, wtf?

 

Ok, here's my opinion, not that anyone cares, but hey it's the internet so I am as important as the most learned soccer analyst.

Before the game I watched the Studio 90 Brazil practice session on the US Soccer web site and I was left thinking, "Holy crap, we're going to look like orange traffic cones against these guys." Their offensive players were weaving in and out of their defensive guys like they weren't even there. So, given that as a baseline, I thought we did pretty good.

The own goal was a fluke. Bad luck. When a ball takes a high speed caroms at you in your center of mass you will not get out of the way. An arm, leg, or even head has a chance of moving out the way, but not your solar plexis. So, in my book, Gooch get's a pass on that one.

However, one guy who does not is Pearce. If you notice on the counter attack he is in a forward position, but he just kind of jogs back. Now he may or may not have been able to do anything about the attack (in my view it looked like he had a chance of disrupting the third or fourth pass - can't remember exactly), but if I am the coach he would get a serious talk about not hustling back on defense when you are a defender.

On the second goal I put it all on Gooch. In the replay you can see why he lost his man; poor positioning before the Brazil player even started his run. Gooch seemed to be standing up field from him and several steps away, instead of draped over him like a carpet and between him and the goal.

Aside from that I was encouraged by the play of both Gooch and Pearce, and hope to see fewer of those types of errors in the future as they are both relatively young for defenders.

I love Cherundolo in these kinds of games. I thought he did very well. I thought Boca was decent as well. Certainly he's not world class, but who on the USA is?

This is Brazil after all. They are big, fast, and technical soccer gods. Bradley's brain fart in the final minute and an unlucky bounce account for the score differential in this game. I am willing to admit feeling decent about that.

Scumby

 

I would agree if he made ANY attempt to mark. Lucio made his run to the right, Gooch just sort of floated in the middle and allowed the ball to go over his head. There were 2-3 on the right. He didn't mark any of them and was just ball watching. His role in those set pieces is to disrupt at least one of the attackers while fighting for the ball. He was all alone and did an absolutely horrible job. I wasn't sure what happened at real time speed, but in the replay, it was clear that Gooch--who may not have been able to do anything--put himself in a position where he absolutely DID nothing. Boca was generally more solid in my view.

 

Okay, I've just watched it again. In real-time. In slo-mo. In high def. From every angle they provided. I don't know what you are referencing.

He doesn't move the other way at all. He's kind of bouncing up and down...trying to stay loose. He sets himself right before the ball is struck, then he moves to his right when he sees the ball. It looks funny, I'll grant you, because there's a delay between setting himself for a save and the time that he really attempts it. But that's due to the brilliance of the free kick keeping him from seeing it.

Watch it again. I don't think you'll feel the same way anymore.

EDIT: My god, that was a bad call, by the way.

 

Yes, that is what I saw too. I am surprised that more people are not commenting on this. Convey was in the wall, he blocked Howard's vision ... and when the ball came toward him he flinched. So much for the difficulty of making 19 yard free kicks, just hit the ball 6 feet high and wait for the guy in the wall to duck away.

Howard looked mighty good for a guy who conceded 4 goals. He had no breaks this match.

 

One thing that really bothered me about Pearce was on the 1st Brazilian goal. After Brazil got past him with a quick one-two around the midfield line, he didn't make any effort to get back into position. He lightly jogged back while his mark ran forward, received the ball and passed on to Ronaldinho. You can't afford to be lazy for a second. No guarantees he would have prevented the goal, but becoming a spectator at the point when you're supposed to be a defender is inexcusable.

 

I watched the replays a couple of times. The Brazilians showed their savvy on this play. The wall was situated pretty well with 2 Brazilians on the far post end of the wall. As Ronaldinho approached the ball, they shoved the US wall towards the near post. It looked like Eddie Johnson got shoved out of the wall entirely. By the time Ronaldinho hit the ball the Brazilians were in line with the free kick, ducked, and the ball went in. If the US wall held their position, the kick would have been blocked. I don't think it was so much a problem of how Howard had the wall set up but more with the US wall standing it's ground.
Convey being on the outside of the Brazilians had a chance to intervene on the shot but backed away instead.

 

Gooch was the weakest back there to me...own goal and lost his mark for number 2, and I wasn't sitting far from the dive and was pretty surprised it wasn't given a penalty. Don't wanna argue if it should have been or not, but that kind of play is often called. He was beaten through the middle for speed a few times and just looked unsteady.

Boca was better, although he too got beat from time to time. He was playing the organizer out there and as captain seems to be the leader.

Pearce was a bit unsteady early, but got better as it went on. He's much more controlled out there than Borenstein, something I favor to the chicken with his head cut off hustle and bustle Bornstein's been giving us.

Dolo was poor against Sweden, but really looked better this time around. One of his better games for the US for a while.

Howard made a couple excellent saves, but I think he could have done better on the 3rd goal. His wall was supposed to be covering the near post, that far post shot was his job and it got through. Had the wall allowed the ball to go through low to the near post, I'd blame them. But, Howard set them to cover the near post, so how it's the wall's fault a low shot to the far post got through I don't understand. Excellent, swerving shot and all, but something I expect Howard to get more often than not.

I really think we need to do something about our central defense. Brazil was attacking successfully straight down the middle too much. Own goal was an attack dead center, the corner was finished off inside the 6 yard box, the free kick and the penalty were both made when players took us on straight through the middle. They figured out early we were vulnerable right down the heart and that's something that's gonna kill us if we don't fix it.

 

Honestly I'm not sure how to define liability. Maybe he couldnt have prevented the own goal (I would argue that a more mobile defender instead of standing there like a statue would have realized his only hope was to attack the ball directing it off goal... which gooch didnt even try). He certainly was completely at fault on Lucio's goal. It wasnt just that he lost his man... it was that he didnt even attempt to stay with him. I wont speak to the Robinho play... i think if he didnt so badly embelish it he actually had a better chance of getting a call. But he was clearly heading into the air before he was hit. I guess he just didnt realize that Gooch was that likely to take him out. All in all, if Gooch wasn't a liability at at least SOME points of this match, then I wonder how else to define him. He was certainly okay at certain points of the game. But okay for 70 minutes and liability for 20 minutes may not be what we are looking for from a central back. I will note that he completely left his man in the first half too on a free kick. I guess it was possible boca was the only one who didnt catch the attempted offside trap but i'd think that call originates with Boca... in which case Gooch just plain dropped his guy.

I think at the least he is redundant with boca, and given both of their proclivities for mental errors and bad clearances he needs to stop being paired with him.

 

I generally agree with Superdave...but not on the Howard goal.


I watched the replay many times too and being a goalkeeper myself I'll have to say it was just struck so well and here's why:

On the kick Timmy is staying loose and never moves to his left (like Perkins did during the Beckham goal), he only takes a dive to his right after he sees the ball late. The reason he sees it late is because the ball was struck over two Brazilians...meaning Ronaldinho placed that ball almost perfectly.


That said, Timmy was not happy with himself in the post game comments about that goal...he placed some blame on himself, but also on the fact that he just couldn't see it because of the great placement.


However, to say his positioning was amateur is a pretty amateur statement (and I know superdave is no amateur poster...so I'll just credit it to a brainfart...and to the fact that even expert posters make slight mistakes like expert goalkeepers do). Again, as a goalkeeper I know the wall was placed properly and for the most part so was Howard's positioning. Just a great shot.



PS - Don't look at my avatar

 

If Brazil gets the Robinho penalty then it's 3 goals directly attributed to Gooch.
Admittedly the own goal was unfortunate but it happened. The ball watching Lucio goal was inexcusable and the play in the box would've been a penalty in the WC. Gooch is a liability against top flight competition. His inability to concentrate for a full match is becoming more apparent the more he plays for the Nats.

 

my thoughts are put in TWO different american central defenders and everyone would be bitching about them today....

who else would NOT have been anal probed??

 

Gooch-Gibbs-Boca-Demerit. We have to keep pairing these up until 2010 and see who is the right combo.Also if Simek cant breakthrough at RB for some reason he can also play in the middle.

 

simek will NOT take the job away from cherundolo...

central defense, we could see Gooch-Gibbs-Boca-Demerit rotation thru qualifying with the starters emerging....

 

IMHO we just need to find out who our best two defenders are together. Gibbs is by no means ready/worthy. Demerit from what little we have seen doesn't seem too great, but it was a very limited sampling.

Start with Boca, Gooch, Parkhurst, Conrad,Demerit. If Gibbs gets healthy or Spector starts getting minutes at CB, throw them in as well but they are both longshots.

 

I think Spec's future is at center half, so I don't consider that a longshot.

About Gibbs, on the other hand, I 100% agree with you. Until he's healthy, he doesn't exist, as far as I'm concerned (with respect to the international team, obviously). Even if he gets healthy, he's far from proven, in my book, and is going to have to force inclusion through outstanding play. If you put a gun to my head and asked me about his chances, I'd say he's done. I hope I'm wrong on that count.

 

What's more - Dunga had put no effort to match up with the US and the US central defense only had a single forward (either Afonso or Vagner Love) to contend with.

A semi-decent coach with as much forepower as Brazil has would put two guys upfront and that way the two US central defenders would have very little ability to clean up each other's mistakes.

Put the Beast on Onyewu for 90 minutes and you may see a double digit score ... and that's with Baptista blowing 70% of his sitters too.

 

I agree that it is not all Timmy's fault. However, (as an ex-goalkeeper myself) I think he DID anticipate the shot going near post. He took a half step to his left as he setup, and was not protecting his side of the goal.

Could he see the ball? Probably not. Was he leaning the wrong way? I think so. Is Convey as much, or more, to blame than Timmy? Probably. Am I starting to sound like Donald Rumsfeld? You bet your sweet patootie.

Anyway... maybe "amature" is a little strong. However, Howard was overly concerned about the wall not doing their job (or Ronaldinho's ability to go over the wall), and gave up a goal that he really should not have.

 

I say we need to start seeing Boca paired up with Parkhurst, Spector, and Demerit. We know Gooch sucks. We know Conrad is a good short term option and we know Gibbs was cursed by JOB, Jk but is not fit enough yet.

 

He did not stop the shot because his footwork was horrible. It was the same horrible footwork to blame for the Sweeden goal also.

 

He didn't stop the shot because it was perfectly struck in a hole that the two Brazilians made in the wall while Convey ducked. It was a bit of a headscratcher when I watched it live...but on replay, I was more impressed with the play than I was distressed at Timmy.

And Gibbs should not be in the mix until he is playing regular minutes for his club. Convey shouldn't be on the roster. The US National team is not HealthSouth for soccer players.