8/26/04: US VS Brazil Gold Medal Match (2PM ET/2PM PT on NBC) Pre/During/Post/etc.[R]

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by Julius, Aug 23, 2004.

  1. silentbob

    silentbob Member

    Aug 17, 2003
    Maryland
    Club:
    DC United
    They also dive like the pro men, too. Formiga was "writhing around in pain" after an alleged foul, then literally two minutes later was chasing the ball in a full-on sprint against Rampone.

    This isn't the first, second, or even third time I've seen Formiga pull this stunt either. I watched all the Brazil WWC matches at RFK last year and she got away with this crap several times. She'd be on the sideline, fake a limp that slowly but magically turned into a quick jog -- almost like Kevin Spacey at the end of The Usual Suspects.
     
  2. sibuor

    sibuor New Member

    Aug 29, 2004
    this is very true.
     
  3. DeigoRedD

    DeigoRedD Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 28, 2004
    Fort Worth, TX
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: 8/26/04: US VS Brazil Gold Medal Match (2PM ET/2PM PT on NBC) Pre/During/Post/etc


    I watched the tape of this goal over and over. And as I was a ref in my younger years...

    I totally agree with the call on the field on the goal you're talking about.

    When the kick was taken, Boxx was in an onsides position. The players that clould have been called offsides weren't near the ball and didn't take the first touch on the ball.

    Boxx had the presence of mind to draw the keeper and pass to Wambach for the easy goal.

    It was a great idea by the Japanese. They just got burned by it. And I'll give them extra kudos because I didn't see one of their players contesting or griping. They knew their plan didn't work out like they would have hoped.
     
  4. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Re: 8/26/04: US VS Brazil Gold Medal Match (2PM ET/2PM PT on NBC) Pre/During/Post/etc

    Actually, the US was not offsides on their second goal against Japan. Clearly it is you who do not understand the rule.

    I have no problem admitting that Brazil played a far more attractive game than the U.S. did. I also have no problem admitting that Markgraf should've been carded and a PK given. But I'm not going to make factual mistakes because it makes me feel better emotionally.

    The "ref" while not outstanding were pretty much par for the course. If you want to pick them apart, then Elaine should've been red carded early in the first half for grabbing Wambach, knocking her on the ground, then purposefully jumping on her.
     
  5. FawcettFan14

    FawcettFan14 Member+

    Mar 19, 2004
    Colorado
    It isn't just Formiga either, although she's one of the main culprits. The whole Brazilian team are experts at pathetic diving and faking injuries. Its bred into their culture, I guess. They probably have a half hour at the end of each training session devoted to the "art of diving". ;) The men have been doing it for decades and the women have picked it up as their game has improved. I was sitting close to the field at the '99 semifinal, and remember Katia getting fouled by Michelle Akers late in the match. She rolled around, screamed in pain, needed a stretcher to get over to the sideline. Once she reaches the sideline, she immediately hops up, gets a sip of the Magic Healing Water, and it good to go. It goes on so much, the referees have to notice it. I wish they would get stricter and do something to put a stop to it. I guess its just part of the game, but it really bugs me. :)

    The Brazilians have such awesome skills, its a shame they pollute their game with all this crap. Imagine how good they'd be if they just played the game.
     
  6. sibuor

    sibuor New Member

    Aug 29, 2004
    I couldn't agree more,the US soccer dominance ends right here,And its unfortunate that the womens league was disbanded.It will be very ,very tough for the US women to beat teams like Japan ,Germany and Brazil again.The only reason they even won the gold was because of poor refereeing.But they were not the first second or third best team in the tournament.Brazilian women are playing more and more like their men and when they do that,its impossible to beat them without the aid of referees.
     
  7. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Re: 8/26/04: US VS Brazil Gold Medal Match (2PM ET/2PM PT on NBC) Pre/During/Post/etc

    If this was truly what you saw then the call (no foul) was correct by your own admission.

    Hand plays ball = foul
    Ball plays hand = no foul

    I believe this is what the referee saw and why she made no call. We can debate the hand to ball or ball to hand on this forever as we do not know what the thinking was at the time BUT the call is based on what the referee believes was the intent.

    Next to the offside (BTW it is offside not offsides) handling is the most misunderstood call in soccer.

    Gaining an advantage plays no part, except for a play on call.

    In fact in the examples FIFA uses is one like this:
    Corner kick.
    Offensive player in front of goal at the 6.
    Ball is crossed to the penalty spot where it is shot by another player.
    The player in front of goal turns to face the shooter. (facing away from goal)
    The keeper saves the shot but the ball rebounds to the hand of the player still facing away from goal.
    The ball is directed from the hand into goal.
    Result - Goal.

    Clearly the ball was directed into goal with the hand (a clear advantage) but, since the ball played the hand there is no foul.

    The referee must have ruled that the ball bounced into the hand and that there was no intent to play the ball with the hand.
     
  8. Morris20

    Morris20 Member

    Jul 4, 2000
    Upper 90 of nowhere
    Club:
    Washington Freedom
    Don't you get tired? The Brazilians were great. They just couldn't beat the US. Stop whining.

    Now whether Brazil continues to improve or goes back to their WWC '99 form is entirely dependant on whether Simoes stays or goes. Much like the US, Brazil's team has to succeed in spite of its federation (and often its coaching staff).

    Similarly if Ape gets dumped, then there's a chance that someone can inculcate the same "it's more than soccer" attitude in a new generation of players. If she stays, our development as a national team will be retarded.
     
  9. Hamm-star

    Hamm-star New Member

    Oct 2, 2002
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    sregis:

    I know your not a mean person. I only mentioned it so hopefully you would understand if I make mistakes. which I do often. It's ok;)
     
  10. Elroy

    Elroy New Member

    Jul 26, 2001
    Re: 8/26/04: US VS Brazil Gold Medal Match (2PM ET/2PM PT on NBC) Pre/During/Post/etc

    I hate to get involved in a discussion this technical, but doesn't "confer an advantage" ( or words to that effect ) enter into this. Imagine, ball going towards net, defender slides and "accidently" handles the ball ala the German player in the last WC. It isn't called. How long does it take before this happens all the time. I've always thought that if the infraction results in an advantage to the player committing the infraction, there should be a foul. Of course, this is called differently in the field from in the box. Personally, if I saw such a play when I reffed, I called an indirect - usually dangerous play. That's nice, but if I were reffing now, I'd call the PK.
     
  11. j&bontherock

    j&bontherock BigSoccer Supporter

    Re: 8/26/04: US VS Brazil Gold Medal Match (2PM ET/2PM PT on NBC) Pre/During/Post/etc



    didn't you see that alot of brasilian players played dirty (many many more than the US did ), there were plenty of replays showing the Brasilians used their hand to stop the play, kicked Lilly on the head, took a dive etc , it was overall a dirty team. The US players play one or two dirty to retaliate..
     
  12. j&bontherock

    j&bontherock BigSoccer Supporter

    Re: 8/26/04: US VS Brazil Gold Medal Match (2PM ET/2PM PT on NBC) Pre/During/Post/etc



    Last saturday on the match between Man U and Blackburn of the EPL, the ManU goal happened right after a handball and everyone knew that, those things happen in this sport, sometime referee doesn't see what we see...
     
  13. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Re: 8/26/04: US VS Brazil Gold Medal Match (2PM ET/2PM PT on NBC) Pre/During/Post/etc

    Well the ONLY determining factor is the referee’s view of intent. the Law is simplicity itself:

    A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player commits any of the following four
    offences:
    tackles an opponent to gain possession of the ball, making contact with the opponent before touching the ball;
    holds an opponent;
    spits at an opponent;
    handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his own penalty area).

    That is ALL that is in the law and note the word deliberately. No where in Law 12 does it mention gaining advantage making the unintentional handling a foul nor does it give any credence to the idea that there should be unintentional handling called at all.

    The advantage clause is there to give the referee the option to not call a foul if the fouled team would be penalized by the call.

    So, to put it simply, no matter what the result it IS a foul if the hand plays the ball no matter what the result and it is NOT a foul if the ball plays the hand.

    The way referees are told to determine it is if the contact is unavoidable then it is not a foul. Also they are encouraged to not call a foul if the hands go to the ball as a protection reaction. i.e. a play against Australia (I believe) where a ball was kicked and deflected suddenly right at the face of an Australian player and she raised her hands to protect her face. The play was right in front of the referee and no call was made even though she stopped the cross with her hands. (OF course it would have been stopped by her face if it did not contact her hands)

    Just because we believe that advantage plays a part in most calls in soccer does not mean that it really does. Advantage does not change the fact of the call is simply changes weather the referee calls it or not. In other words, (with the exception of offside) something that is not a foul does not become a foul because a player gains an advantage from it.

    It is also well to remember that a referee's view of intent may be VERY different that anyone else's as they get no second chances and have no replays to help them.
     
  14. sregis

    sregis Member

    Nov 5, 1999
    Hoboken, USA
    i'm very impressed what the brazilian women's national program has been able to do w/out much support. their great performance can only help it further. the u.s., however, is going to continue to be a remarkable generator of women's soccer talent. there's little reason to believe we won't remain a top 3 team for the forseeable future.
     
  15. AikiBear

    AikiBear New Member

    Aug 28, 2004
    SoCal
    Arial
    undefined

    Just a few comments about the future and future potential in the United States. I live in Southern California, in the greater Los Angeles/Orange County/Riverside/San Bernardino area where competitive youth soccer is played in the Coast soccer League. Coast has about 1800 teams this year, approximately half of which are girl’s teams. These teams are in ages U9 through U19. This adds up to somewhere in the neighborhood of 14,000 girls being trained and coached for the most part by skilled trainers with backgrounds in soccer. These teams are made of players from many differing backgrounds. We have folks now living here who have come from all over Europe, with long backgrounds in soccer. We have probably the largest concentration of folks from Mexico living in this area outside of Mexico City. We have large concentrations of folks from Central American. Players from these families, having learned the basics of soccer from fathers and brothers, are now a large part of this league. We have major youth clubs in this league run by folks from Argentina and Brazil. Some of the best youth clubs in the area take teams to Brazil and Argentina every year.

    During the playing season, which starts in September, I see somewhere between 50 and 70 different girls teams in age u14/u15/u18 play and I see many players with great individual technical skill, outstanding speed and athletic ability. I see players every weekend with better technical skills than the players on our women’s national team. Consider that south of us in San Diego is another competitive youth league with 4 or 5 thousand girls playing, some of these for nationally recognized clubs. Add in the rest of the country and you may have close to 100,000 girls playing competitive soccer at high levels. This number doesn’t take into account the maybe 500,000 other girls playing what would be called recreation soccer. This is a huge pool of talent.

    I agree that things are changing with the USWNT, change always happens. I see the big problem here as having been with the selection process for players, along with technical/tactical training. With the retirement of the last of the founders (91’ers) and with someone with a better understanding of technical/tactical play needed for the changing women’s game at the helm you should see better play from the USWNT. I know the players exist; I see them all the time.

    AikiBear
     
  16. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
  17. Elroy

    Elroy New Member

    Jul 26, 2001
    Me too. I don't see them playing for the Nats. There will be another set of "Flounders" unless the Fed broadens opportunities. 250 Caps for any player is a developmental crime.

    BTW, good first post.
     
  18. j&bontherock

    j&bontherock BigSoccer Supporter


    It sounds like unfair to young girls out there who have great talent.
     
  19. dcajedi

    dcajedi Member

    Jul 16, 2001
    Philadelphia
    new thread?
     
  20. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    soccer forums are supposed to be exempt - except that some moderators enforce the limits.
     
  21. dcajedi

    dcajedi Member

    Jul 16, 2001
    Philadelphia
    aha.

    a nice tidbit here:

    http://usatoday.com/sports/columnist/martzke/2004-08-26-martzke-ratings-ads_x.htm
     
  22. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
  23. GKbenji

    GKbenji Member+

    Jan 24, 2003
    Fort Collins CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Re: 8/26/04: US VS Brazil Gold Medal Match (2PM ET/2PM PT on NBC) Pre/During/Post/etc

    Nope, in the case of handling, gaining benefit from said handling is not a factor in the call. I think there used to be such language in the Laws, but it was removed years ago. Now it only matters if the handling was deliberate, not what happens to the ball afterwards.

    :confused: Indirect? How could you justify that? I know "dangerous play" is In The Opinion Of The Referee, but that seems perilously close to misapplying the Laws and opening things up to protest.

    FWIW, here is what USSF Advice to Referees says about handling and covers all this pretty well:

    IMHO it was perfectly reasonable in the circumstances for Palmqvist to decide Chastain did not deliberately handle the ball. The handball in the box was much iffier; the arms are usually extended for balance when a player goes in for a slide, especially a desperate one like the US player took. In real-time, at game speed, it might be hard to see just what the ball hit, much less determine whether the hands were "not in a normal playing position". I'm not saying the ref was correct with a no-call, but we have the benefit of slo-mo replay from a different angle than the ref had.
     
  24. AndyMead

    AndyMead Homo Sapien

    Nov 2, 1999
    Seat 12A
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Re: 8/26/04: US VS Brazil Gold Medal Match (2PM ET/2PM PT on NBC) Pre/During/Post/etc

    Rule of thumb is generally that any time the ball hits a players hands/arms above their head, it's "deliberate". Markgraf's infraction should've been called.

    Chastain's arms were not, and the ball was played into them at relatively close range. I have see such cases whistled, but they are in the minority. I have no problem with this non-call.
     

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