Costs Chicago Sockers are $1700 per year. This is pretty much of an all-in cost for training and tournament fees. I would imagine that the other clubs that you mention are similar in cost. Travel costs are the killer. Dallas Cup - gee, that's a $200/$300 flight. Disney - oops, another $300. Plus hotels, food, etc. Say you split a $100 room 4 ways for 2 nights, plus you eat on $25 daily. We're not talking luxury accommodations or fancy meals. Well, that's still another $100 in costs per tournament, even if you saved money by driving. And I'm only talking about the kid .. what if one or more parents attend? Very, very easy to spend $3000, $4000 or more once travel costs are taken into consideration. Especially since Super Y is now the rage, thereby making out-of-state road trips a routine occurrence.
I do -- see my favorite team on the left here -- and let me just say, it AIN'T $250 a year. As JohnR said, travel costs are the killer. This year so far we did Regional League in Indianapolis, a US Club game in Wisconsin, President's Day Tournament in Phoenix -- with Dallas Cup upcoming. But the question is, do you get value for the money? The answer is decidedly yes.
Yes, when I said it cost $4500, I was not talking about team fees. I was talking about the total cost of travel. Sun Bowl in Tampa in December -- we drove down, 5 nights in hotel down there plus meals Lexington in March -- drive down, two nights hotel 4 weekends of National League play -- 8 nights hotel. 2 local tournaments in May & June State Cup preliminaries & quarterfinals -- 2 nights hotel State Cup finals -- 1 night hotel Colorado Springs end June / first July -- airfare, 4 nights hotel, car rental Then add indoor training for 6 weeks leading up to Sun Bowl and 2 more weeks late Feb/early March before weather permits outdoor practice. Finally, we have an added expense that most on the team don't -- we live an hour away, so add 1 hour each way driving 3 times per week. During the winter training, we were frequently going to Grand Rapids which is just under an hour from the majority of the team, but 2 hours away from us.
I have to say that I agree with Karl -- IF -- and it's a HUGE IF -- your kid is going to go on to the next level in soccer -- be it college, semi-pro or pro. If they're just playing soccer to have fun as a kid, there's no way I would put out this much time and money. However, if you think you're going to get all this back in the form of college scholarship and your kid is a boy, then unless he's truly exceptional, you're probably in for a surprise. There's not that much money in college soccer. The girls have a lot more scholarship money available. The women have a higher limit (12 vs. 9.9 for men) and you'll find that a higher percentage of the women's programs are fully funded or funded at a higher level. For example, one D1 University in our area has 8 scholarships for women and only 5.5 for men.
I noticed a discrepancy between this quote and your earlier post where you said your son was gunning for the scholarship. Is your son exceptional? Does he have all the tools? Speed? Lightning, or he keeps up? Dribbling? Outstanding or very good or average? Moves? Outstanding, good or below avg.? Vision? Outstanding, good or below avg.? Strength? Outstanding, good or below avg.? Passing? Outstanding, good or below avg.? Soccer Brain? Outstanding, good or below avg.? The only reason I'm asking is to get a better handle on my own kids' future chances. I'm not asking for a put down of your child, I'm just asking for an honest evaluation of what it takes for a boy to feel like he's got a chance. Was your son always a top player or did he markedly improve at age 14? I'm asking personal questions, if you'd rather pm me, go right ahead.
Scholarships Been said before, but thinking of premiere soccer dues as an "investment" in a potential college scholarship is nuts. About as wise as investing in e-tailers. If one in 5 premiere players receives a 50% college scholarship for 4 years, college costs $20K per year on average, and the costs of premiere soccer are $3000 (all-in) for 6 years, then the ratio is $90,000 spent for $40,000 in benefit gained. And I bet that nowhere near 1 in 5 premiere male players receives a 50% college scholarship. Blow your money if your kid is a strong player, you have the dough, and you're all having a good time. Otherwise, forget about premiere soccer.
Re: Scholarships Just to put it ALL into perspective: Ned Grabavoy, he of the current U20 squad, wanted to go to UVA and play for George Gelnatovich, but George had no scholarship money....for NED!! So Ned settled for Indiana...which had some dough. JohnR is right...if you are looking at the premier soccer experience as a PURELY ROI event -- i.e., I spend $Xthousand a year and will get, in the end, a $XX thousand 4-year college scholarship...well, to put it high falutin's financial terms, the net present value of this transaction is likely going to be SOOOO negative it will make your head swim.. When I said you get value for the money, I didn't mean it in these unrealistic financial terms. Even if my kid doesn't play a lick of soccer beyond HS, here's what this experience has done for him: --he sees what "excellence" really means --he may not be the best player out there, but he has played with and against such players, players who are truly outstanding, and he knows what qualities they have --he learns about his own strengths and limitations --he learns to set goals --he understands that working hard can have rewards for HIM, and that his improvement means his team improves too. --he learns discipline, dedication, and teamwork in as close to a professional environment as possible --he learns to comport himself in the manner of a professional --he is given significant challenges he has to meet, and he has to learn to get outside his comfort zone --he learns that when opportunities come along, he has to seize them or they will slip away --he learns he can have fun while still taking the activities associated with his team very seriously --he learns to travel properly, how to meet responsbilities, organize himself, and prepare for the tasks at hand. --he learns the true value of winning and losing In other words, these are valuable LIFE lessons, learned at a high level, and with significant intensity. You could learn some of these lessons with a town travel team, but probably not all of them, and certainly not at the level he is learning them now. As I said, no matter what happens in his soccer career, these are the things that REALLY count. Bob Bradley told a bunch of college bound kids once that you pick a school according to the "broken leg" rule: that is, if you stepped off the bus on the first day of school, broke your leg, and hand to spend 4 years there without ANY soccer, would you be happy in the decision you made? So, I have a corrollary to that rule. If my kid stopped playing tomorrow, for any reason, would I be happy with the decision I made and the money I spent? I would.
But isn't that the problem? You can't ORGANIZE these events, you can't oraganize your way into the World Cup. Organization is the crutch we in the US always fall back on.
Re: Costs Super-Y league - my advice is to only join if your child will get significant playing time. It will not be worthwhile if your child doesn't get to play at least 50% of each game. Our child had a wonderful experience with the Y league but the travel was a killer. Our division was a mixed batch of teams. We traveled several hours to win a game 8-0. There were 2 or 3 teams in our division who were not premiere quality. Until the league makes a super and sub-super division, the complaints will continue.
Re: Re: Re: Scholarships That's just a trip...he's been to Europe. No, all of what I laid out has to be understood as a long-term focus, not a one-off event.
Confused... do you mean a soccer team traveling to Europe or just some kind of family vacation? I don't see how a family vacation does many of those things listed. Other than these two which other ones were not competition-related? "--he is given significant challenges he has to meet, and he has to learn to get outside his comfort zone --he learns that when opportunities come along, he has to seize them or they will slip away"
He is gunning for a PARTIAL scholarship, but we're not necessarily EXPECTING it. My point was don't make the investment to play at this level unless he is going further with his soccer playing career AND don't do it expecting the expenditures to pay off in the form of getting a scholarship. You have to try to play at this level if you want to make it into college. As for all the other reasons that you say that it's worth it, I agree with everything on that list. However, I would argue that a kid could learn MOST of those things playing at the next level down where they're still a strong team playing in a number of tournaments but not at the highest elite level. And it'd only cost about half as much as we're spending. I'll PM you on the qualities of my son and what we're learning in the recruiting process.
This is my first visit to the youth forums, though I've brooded on many of these subjects for many years, and after reading it all my hair is about to catch fire. Briefly, my own soccer history. I was a very good athlete, but wanted to play football and basketball and baseball. Was decent at all, excelled at none. Started watching soccer at 26. Coached my son's team 1 season. Practiced a good bit with him. Bought a pair of shoes and finally got the courage to go down to the playground where the hispanics played every afternoon. Within ten months, was asked to play defense on a non-league Salvadoran team. A year after that, was midfielder and captain of a gringo team. I'm sure my story isn't typical, but I don't think the answer is making sure the best players play the maximum amount of soccer against the best players-- at least in the big picture. the answer is making sure the maximum number play at least a little soccer for the longest amount of time. Then they can figure out what sport they're best at and the coaches will be able to find those kids who are sure-fire prospects. As far as the money goes, that's food for a dozen more threads, but the whole american soccer culture must be intimidating for the parents of kids who don't know anythign about soccer. Even if you give a kid a free ride on a travel team, just think what must be going on in the mind of his mother and/or father. She/he knows nothing about it, has no control over it. Would be easier to stick with basketball or football, and stay on their own side of the tracks. You'll hear more from me, be sure.
Well, this is me injecting my personal life into it--I have lots of vacation, particularly in the summertime. I don't have kids yet, and I plan on getting my coaching liscenses in the future....if my kids shows ability and desire, I'm not putting up with all of this amateur bull$hit. 1)Youth soccer(to generalize) doesn't mimic the professional style of MLS, Bundesliga, Serie A, or La Liga. It mimics the EPL, a very exciting form of soccer to watch, but a style of play very dependent on fitness and direct play. Possession does not seem to be taught at all making it, IMHO, a poor teacher of the game. 2) I can save all of this money, and go and stay with people in Spain, Argentina or Mexico. I don't have any contacts in Brazil yet though. Hence my comments saying.."wouldn't a trip to Europe or South America do the same thing." I realize this is not feasible for most people since they are in a different line of work, are not bilingual, etc.
Why not, this is all the U17 national team does in addition to daily training. IMHO this is only true at the younger age levels. When professional, world class players are sprining up all over the world at 16,17 and 18 years of age, we've got to make sure that the best prospects are getting the MAXIMUM number of games possible. To me, that means right around 13,14,15 years old when the kids start hitting puberty. That is when kids start making or thinking about definitive choices in their lives....
Prodigies I read somewhere that the mark of a prodigy, in any activity, is that you cannot keep the kid away from that activity. They live and breathe to do their thing. Unfortunately, I think development is mostly a joke. The kids that are wired up right to play truly excellent soccer go immediately to the top provided someone does not screw them up.
Re: Prodigies Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Can you explain further? To the extent that you are implying that the subject of proper development is irrelevant and that talent/desire is key, well that doesn't really work. The U.S. has 10X the population of Argentina but (being very, very generous to the U.S.) many fewer top U20 soccer players. The story would seem to involve a lot more than talent & desire. But maybe you meant something else ...
Re: Prodigies Well, I think you're talking prodigy here. A prodigy in the U.S. would be some kid who got out there and played with the ball every day, all the time starting at a pretty young age. Problem is that little Johnny can't go out and find anyone else to play with in the U.S. because his teammate lives on the other side of the city. It helps if little Johnny has an older brother like Clint Mathis had to play with in the backyard. I'll agree, the prodigies do go to the top---but even the prodigies here in the U.S. have to deal with a less than ideal development situation....unlike Dieguito in Argentina, Raul in Spain, Ronaldo in Brazil, Deisler in Germany, Owen in England, etc..
Re: Re: Prodigies Bingo! Being a talented young soccer player in the U.S. is like being a talented young basketball player in Europe. Twenty-five years ago, every talented young basketball player in Europe sucked as an adult. Twenty-five years ago, there were potential Dirk Nowitzksis & Vlade Divacs & Pau Gasols, but they were all crap (by world class standards) as adults. Nobody to play with, and insufficient coaching. Today, the Euroboys can play. Although overall, not by U.S. standards. But the best of them are fully competitive. I figure that's where we are today in the U.S. We're not going to develop potential talent as efficiently as they do in Europe, but we have enough opportunity such that at least some potential talents hit the bigtime. In another 25 years, I hope, we will fully catch up with Europe. And then we'll kick their butts up and down the field, because we have 4x as many people as any country in Europe. Oh, it will be sweet.
Re: Re: Re: Prodigies Let's hope that in the next 5-7 years we have the infrastructure in place that is going to get us on par with any team in the world. We're missing youth teams, and that's the last step IMHO(next to SS stadiums). Once all these little wannabe Beckhams start realizing that the way to get to the top is through Dallas Burn U17, we won't have a problem with kids saying that they're "burned out" by playing too many matches. Even the ones who don't make it will still get college scholarships. Look at how far we've gotten with all of this inefficiency, to me it's pretty amazing. I said on another thread, that given all of our youth players, we're at 10% or less of our capacity. And yet we still made the quarterfinals of the World Cup.
Without being very qualified to speak about it, I'm willing to accept that super-elite youth programs will continue to be a important part of developing top-notch talent. But clearly, we must expand the pool from which we draw those top-notch prospects. As I pointed it in my decidedly atypical soccer history, I'm not convinced that kids who haven't played super-competitive soccer by age 13 or so can never develop into good players. Many kids around that age (13-15) start to realise that they're not going to be 6'3, and that if they manage to make their high school baseball or basketball teams, they're not going to have the kind of glamorous careers they'd be dreaming about. If those kids had still been playing soccer, at some level, even while giving priority to a more glamorous sport, it might not be too late for them to focus on soccer and if they have the talent and can get some coaching, be good enough to play small-college ball somewhere. Tony Sanneh, I believe, played div 3 soccer, then minor league soccer, then got a roster spot for dc united (not as a starter mind you), and went on to play sweeper for a big European club. I don't know all the details, but apparently his potential went unnoticed by a lot of people for a long time. Not many of the kids who are cloistered away at the US elite camps will ever get as far as he has.
That's really not his story. He was a very good college player, I forget where, and went to PDSL (might be other lower division league) that played in Minnesota. He was, I believe, the scoring leader in the league. DC United very much wanted him, but Sanneh wanted to stay put because he was making more money there. Eventually DC United offered him enough to come to DC.
Here's a better profile of Tony Sanneh than my faulty memory - http://www.soccertimes.com/usteams/roster/men/sanneh.htm.
I think part of the problem is that our society is pushing althletic specialization down to an earlier age ever year. My youngest son used to mix soccer, ice hockey and baseball. Then, at about age 13 or so, he learned that if he wanted to continue in baseball or hockey, it would have to become his full time sport. The baseball coach even demanded that the kids play no other sport at all! Unless your kid is mad about soccer (to the exclusion of all other sports) and willing to forego everything else, I think this is simply too young to expect a child to make a monster decision like that. If a kid is a great athlete, he can postpone such a decision for several more years and not lose so much ground that he cannot recover, IMHO. Here in Maryland, we had a superb athlete 10 or more years ago named Curtis Pride. He was All State in baseball and basketball, but he may also have been the best soccer player MD ever produced. Eventually, he chose baseball, and played (plays?) in the major leagues. But despite playing these other sports, he maintained his soccer skills up until he signed his professional baseball contract. I believe he would have gone into pro soccer here if MLS had been up and running at the time, and he would have been very competitive.