I think it's pretty much unavoidable. Look at our most skilled players--Ramos, Reyna, Mathis, JOB. I'm pretty sure that all of them played soccer single mindedly at 14. With the increasing popularity I don't think that'll be the problem. The problem now IMHO is getting the elite players the training that they need beyond USSF's U17 selections for residency.
There is a drop in youth players playing soccer when they hit 13, but is the drop more than or less than baseball, football, and basket ball? Is the data based upon how many tryout for a junior high or high school team?
I'd be curious to know how much playing year around is going for these days. I'd say my parents shelled out about 1K for me a year 10-15 years ago. And to tell you the truth, I think I took it for granted. Between spring and fall registration, two tournaments requiring overnnight accomodations a year, twenty indoor games, a week camp at IU and a day camp, it couldn't have been cheap. What I see in soccer that has a distinct advantage on other US sports is that at least there is a bare bones structure to play year around if you're willing and able. On one side, you run the risk of burnout. On the other end there is a continuity to playing with a group of kids year around and developing the friendships. I'll be in a wedding this fall for a guy I played travel w/ from 9 to 17 along with 6 other guys who played together from 9 on. You can't get that level of camraderie playing football in the fall. Or even playing basketball in winter and the mess that is AAU ball in the summer. I think it's good that kids play different sports. I know basketball helped my soccer and soccer my basketball. Spring track and fall cross country are great too. I'm willing to bet that a lot of guys from the national team went that route past thirteen. The biggest challenge I see is in developing depth in competition for the kids who play at a high level. I can only speak for what I've seen in the midwest, but there is a lot of talent out there now playing in strong, technically well-coached metro travel teams that are only getting 3-4 good competitive games out of ten or twelve in a season. If we can attract an extra 2-3% of the good athletes into soccer a year, we'll end up with five or six decent teams from a city over time. I think that's happening already. Even if it's one or two guys athletically gifted kids per class in a town of 100,000 decide to keep on an extra year or two per year, we'll see the difference on the field. There will be less need to have the premier teams travelling 200 miles consistently on the weekend to get a decent game. That is where a synergy occurs. I think we'll hit it.
Lots of very good responses. Certainly is making me reconsider our options for my 14 year old son. Points of reference: Started in AYSO at 5 years old. Has been in club soccer since U9. First time ODP player this year as a U14. Costs? About $750-$1200 a year for club. Add about $700 for ODP this year, so far. His U14 club team was not good. His team is playing out a couple of summer tournaments and then high school tryouts will take place in August. He has a good shot at making varsity, certainly JV. Most of his club team teammates are not what you would call "skilled" or "elite" players. This is my concern as we seek options other than his club team for this summer and U15 when this fall's high school season is over. At this point, it's not clear if his U14 teammates will tryout for U15. Unfortunately, there are only about 15 kids willing to tryout. The club will certainly not tell these kids to go to rec soccer, they want/need the money. But the skilled players will not be challenged as much. We're not sure struggling to make classic 1, let alone premier level is worth the effort/money. We live in an Oregon town of about 50,000. We have a large hispanic community that is very much involved in playing soccer, but our club team can only get 15 kids out for a tryout, none of them hispanic. Our local talent pool is limited, even though both high schools are yearly participants in the state tournament. A lot of the kids on this club team also play Boys and Girls Club and AAU basketball. Our spring practices are impacted with poor attendence. Kids would rather play/practice basketball. Parents pay big bucks to play soccer, but then turn around and have their kid miss practices and the few spring tournaments that this team scheduled to play. Our local club has struggled with this apparent drop off of adolescents for a number of years. Unfortunately, there has not been a turn around. The kids/parents seem to figure it out that the kids talents are not in soccer. Or, they find out that high school studies take a lot more of their time. Or, they discover the opposit sex. Or, they just burnout with soccer year round. I know that my son has the skills to play the game. But where do we get the training that he needs to keep his interest and skills? We're trying ODP this year, and we are currently looking into Super Y. The Super Y thing will require traveling 60 miles round trip, three days a week for practices. That is a lot of commitment that most kids/parents are not willing to make. I'm not sure we can, with gas prices hovering over two-bucks a gallon! I don't have a good answer to why the dropoff, only that the skilled players that want to keep playing the game must continually search for good coaching and competitive play.
I believe one issue that may have been lost here, and my apologies if revisting this thread I forgot about it is that it's not only soccer that loses a lot of players by age 13, all sports do. In fact the age of 13 is probably the wrong age. U14 or graduation from 8th grade is the cut off. At this point, most recreation programs end and the options are limited to elite recreational teams for all sports or high school varsity, JV and freshman programs.
Bill Archer Why is it that whenever "Bill Archer" joins a chat he always belittles people and act like an arrogant SOB? Bill said, and I'm paraphrasing for you, is that ok? That Traveling Soccer (Select) only costs about $ 250 a season. Now was that including the hotels for 3-5 tournaments a season that most teams play, the hotels for the regional state championships, and the hotel for the state championships? Lets just say that that's 10 nights in a hotel for around $ 100 dollars a night, plus uniforms which some teams change seasonally due to growth, etc, new boots every season, food money, and oh yes Gas money to get there? So I'm guessing at the bare minimum that would come to around $ 1600 and no Bill I didn't even mention soccer camps...so you're right...what a Jacka$$
Soccer Mentors: seems like a natural evolution for US fans and BS lounge lizards who want the game to grow.
My mother being the typical soccer mom many years ago drove me an hour each way to take me to Fort Worth, Texas, so I could play Select soccer. She now currently drives my younger sister to Columbia, SC, an hour each way so that she can play soccer...it's just one of those things that due to lack of interest in local communities or the thirst for better competition you have to do unfortunately...
I agree with this. What is needed is pick-up games and intramural leagues for those that drop out but still want to play. Americans have very good athletes at the top but very poor ones at the bottom who would benefit greatly from something like this. Everyone should have the chance to play if they want to, just to stay in shape and for the love of the game.
On several little league internet discussion sites, there has also been some lively discussions as to why youth baseball leagues have been losing players. Registrations in a lot of areas of the country, apparently, are down. Lots of discussions regarding loss of kids in little league to soccer.
I think it's good to play other sport until a certain age. But there's a whole list of world class players that never played any other sport besides soccer. Unfortunately, they don't play on the U.S. National Team either, and tend to play on the teams that are better than we are. Soccer is unlike any other sport because the foot is used as the primary method of controlling, distributing, attacking etc. The more time a kid spends with the ball the better his touch becomes, and the faster he is able to think the game. Basketball is a good conditioning sport, I'll disagree totally with cross country. Look at the muscle mass of cross country runners--it is definitely not conducive to quick explosive bursts of speed. Those quick bursts of speed are exactly what are needed for soccer. I think that our best players are going to have to play year round in order to maximize their potential. The ones who don't get burned out are just that--the ones who love the game the most and who are most likely to succeed at the highest levels. Keep in mind that we are competing with nations(Argentina, Brazil, Holland, Spain, etc.) where kids play nothing else from birth, and it's going to be unlikely that we'll reach their level unless our kids begin to specialize at earlier ages than the typical American kid. Success at the top level(international) is what is going to propel this sport to new levels of popularity. And when something's popular, it's participation price usually goes down a lot also, less travel is required, more players means more competition means better players in an area.
It's probably got a lot to do with today's society and is probably not specific to just soccer. Play Station 2, Nintendo plus fast food are making us the most obese country in the world, and now it's filtering down to our kids. It's totally shocking to me how inactive today's kids are.
Youth Development Several comments to make - 1) I wouldn't fuss about the original concern, the 75% dropout rate. Same thing happens in baseball. Both soccer and baseball have extraordinary penetration rates for first graders -- about 75% in my neighborhood, far higher than any other sport. It's natural that by age 13 most of those kids will have found something else to do. 2) Bill is correct that one way or another, the good youth players can get their way paid in so-called select soccer. In an informal fashion, the financial support system works pretty well. 3) But $250 for select soccer? Might be one strong program that charges that much -- but most charge a lot more, nevermind tournament fees, travel costs, ODP, etc. Like tennis, ice skating, or gymnastics, youth soccer in the U.S. is a high-cost activity. 4) Irod, your experience is not uncommon. I have heard many similar stories. On the other hand ... my son's high school supports a varsity, JV, sophomore, and not one but two freshmen soccer teams. The school might be lacking for truly good soccer players, but it's certainly not lacking for kids with interest! 5) Finally, on the Hispanic kids not showing up for your son's team ... when I attended high school in California. the high school down the street from me was about 90% Hispanic. With an Hispanic principal. It, too, had very poor turnout for its soccer team, as well as every other sports team. Perhaps this is a cultural thing that transcends your particular region or situation?
There are sports other than football and basketball which guys who aren't as tall can be perfectly good at. Bill Archer wasn't only referring to those sports I don't think. The hoops reference was just one of many choices to use for argument's sake. All those guys probably wouldn't be great at football or basketball due to their size, but YOU are misconstruing facts. They are still great athletes. You still have to be a very good athlete to be a great soccer player like the ones you mentioned. Basketball is also really good for goalies I think. One of my best friends was a great b-ball player and despite not having played soccer for about 15 years since age 10 he's quickly become a great goalie due to his good hands, quick reflexes and size. As far as cross-country runners, until you get to top level college runners or pros I doubt that would be a major problem. If i'm a high school or college soccer coach the conditioning you get from cross-country or any sport like track or swimming has got to help more than it hurts. I doubt cross-country and basketball would be a good match, but the endurance of cross country will definitely help on a soccer field more than it hurts. Someone with more endurance will be more able to have bursts of speed at the end of a game than an average player who is more tired overall. I have to agree though, that at some age, maybe around middle school if a kid really wants to succeed in any sport he's got to play or at least practice it at some level all year. There are some exceptions to this, but they are few and far between.
There are alot of good points on this thread. Very well done. In my area, the problem I see is the coaching. Now, I 'm not talking about trainers, I'm talking about coaches for kids between the ages of 7 thru 12. And please don't talk to me about volunteering myself, I have. Bluntly put, at least 80% of the coaches I've seen in this age group know very little of the game and pass along suspect information. My son's coach has them warm up with 2 long lines where they pass the ball to the coach(?) for a return wall pass and shot. I don't know if he's warming up the kids or himself. And I'm not basing it on just this guy. I live in an area with almost 100,000 soccer palying youths between 6-18. There are programs all over the place but by and large not only have the parents not played but they don't even try to learn. But I guess the worst are the coaches that state that they've played (and I have no doubt that they have), but have no clue as how to teach kids the fundamentals of the game and most importantly the PASSION of the game. Politics play a huge part as they do in LL, but at least in BB, the adults have a clue as to how the game is supposed to be played. Before too many coaches get their noses bent out of shape, I'm not indicting everyone, just the clipboard and coffee crowd that is more enamored with their own ego than the children's love for the game. I think that the coaches I'm referring to, do the most damage in turning off the natural athlete towards soccer. Rant over.
Youth Coaches That seems an unduly harsh assessment of thousands of volunteer parents, not to mention inaccurate. I doubt that most volunteer soccer coaches are more in love with their own ego than in getting children to love the game. At the least, then this is a charge that may also be hurled at Little League baseball coaches, Pop Warner football coaches, and Sunday League soccer coaches in the U.K. Among others. Now, if the assertion is that most volunteer parent-coaches are not particularly knowledgeable about the game, and are not particularly adept soccer coaches, well that strikes me as accurate. But let's not bash these people - they are trying to make things better. And in their own way, they are. Because when I was a child and there were almost no volunteer soccer-coach parents, U.S. youth soccer was absolutely atrocious. About 1000 times worse than today. Soccer Dad and Soccer Mom ain't the enemy. They may not yet be where you want them, but give them time. They've come a long, long way in a single generation.
NYfutbolfan Are you refering to club/select soccer coaches or to rec league coaches? In my area, the club coaches are all certified/licensed. Granted, this doesn't guarentee that the coaching will be good. irod
I'm pretty sure the same is true in other sports where the parent-coaches don't know much about the sport. Don't blame it on ego when its more accurately a lack of knowledge in most cases. I would also say they aren't necessarily doing damage in most cases, they just aren't able to impart a passion for a game if they don't themselves have that passion. It will take at least a generation for that to change as kids who played soccer and have grown to love it begin having their own kids and becoming coaches. It'd be great if we were in a position to only let the qualified parents become coaches, but we don't have enough qualified parents so we can't do that. I'm sure this happens in other sports too, even if not to this extent.
Usually during elementary school age, kids can try multiple sports and activities. Once high school hits, kids have to start being more selective. All sports see a dramatic drop about the start of high school. As far as qualified coaches, this is improving too. When I and my older kids were growing up, most of the fathers played baseball and basketball, so they had some idea what they were doing as coaches. Since most of them had never seen a soccer game, they were involved only because their kids needed a coach. Today, many of the kids of the 80s are now parents (fathers and mothers), who played the game. They are better able to coach and communicate their love of the game. I have a friend (fellow over-the-hill player) with sons 6 and 8. He no longer coaches the older one, because there is a more qualified coach available. So he's coaching the 6 year old. It's taken time to get this far. The coaching will continue to improve. USSF does a good job of coach training. I've taken numerous clinics. I've coached kid's rec basketball, but never been offered a clinic.
This is what should be done for the young kids. Wishing that pick up soccer would take hold like pick up basketball is a pipe dream, but organize weekends where it is nothing but 4 v 4 or 7 v 7, and change teammates every game. Take the emphasis of winning in youth sports and on development instead. Honestly, for skill on the ball, nothing beats actually going outside and getting touches on the ball every day. Camps do not make the superstar...a foundation must be in place beforehand.
HAHAHA, thats great Bill Archer has got to be one of my favorite posters on big soccer. On a side note some people were saying that there is no way that a Travel soccer team can cost $250 a year, you're right for the most part. But first off Bill posted that it was $250 a season, which would be $500 a year. This is somewhat close to what my team cost. Im from the Northern Virginia area where there are a lot of top level club teams. The NCSL which is the main travel soccer league for Northern VIrginia, Maryland, and DC has as many as 60 teams divided among six divisions for each age group. There is a definite difference in the cost for these teams. The bottom division 4,5, and 6 teams usually don't have a high profile coach with a thick resume, and in some cases do not even pay the coach. This brings there costs down considerably, probaly somewhere around the $200-300 a year range. My team fluctated between division 1 and 2 and had a paid coach, and my team cost about $700. That cost includes uniform, tournament, league, and coaching fees. The top 2 or three teams in the league do cost more than that. The top team in my age group was a national champion, and they made trips to the Dallas cup, the sun bowl, and other major tournaments from around the country. This team cost a little over a $1000 a year. But this is definitely less than some of the rediculous costs that some people are throwing out there. And Don't forget like some posters said earlier, if you can play and you can't afford it, a coach will find a way to keep you on that roster. My team had two such players that our coach "discovered". These two guys played for our team for free while the coach gave rides to and from games and practices. Both these guys are now playing collegiately on scholarship. People keep saying that players from this country don't get a chance to play if they don't have the money, but if you can play club coaches will find you. And if you are performing well enough for a big time club team, the National coaches will find you. Look at Erwin Diaz, he didn't even play ODP but he played for a big time club team and the national coaches discovered him and he was subsequently placed on the U17 team and is now on scholarship at Maryland. Another point that I want to address are those of you who have spoken about politics in high school soccer. The reason you didn't make the team was probably that you just weren't good enough. First off politics play effect in everything, if there are two borderline kids, and one of the kids dad knows the coach, that kid is going to have an advantage but this will clearly not have any effect on the cream of the crop type of players. And these are the players that will have an impact on US soccer. And secondly for those of you who are bashing their former high school coaches, shut up. If you left your team because your coach was ignorant you clearly don't love the game. You were talking about the need for cost free soccer. This high school soccer team cost nothing, you got to play the game for free everyday but you quit because you felt your coach did not know enough. SO WHAT! do you think these kids that grow up around the world playing street soccer complain about poor coaching, no they play because they love the game. I guess you can say that Im lucky that I lived outside of DC, which is a big soccer area. My club and high school coach were both former Division 1 college soccer players. But even if they were not, I still would have played because I love the game. Don't put the blame on someone else.
Johnaldo9 If you have the patience to read through Johnaldo9's message, he hits on all the key points - 1) Good travel soccer can be bought for $500 per year, although top teams cost more, as do travel costs & ODP dues. 2) Strong players will find their way paid if necessary, one way or another. 3) The effect of "politics" isn't huge. Most players don't have connections and so therefore are unaffected by politics. Those who do, tend to be affected on the fringes -- i.e., kids who should be bench players being promoted to the starting lineup, or good players being placed with better players on an ODP squad. The system isn't perfect, but in most cases the talent advances to the correct level. 4) Coaches -- most of whom work for little or no money -- aren't the enemy. If you disagree, the coach yourself and do a better job. There you go, a summary for those who can't face 1000-word paragraphs!
Some points that I can offer. Yes, it is possible for SELECT teams -- i.e. the lowest level of travel soccer -- to be around $250 per season. 8 years ago, I was involved starting a new club to promote travel soccer in our area. Our team fees were $90 to $120 per season -- total of $210 for the year. Our uniforms were about $120 for the year. That's the sum total of what it cost to be on the team. $330 for the year. That included league fees, referee fees and 3 tournaments (1 in fall, 2 in spring). Add in the parent's travel expenses -- approx 4 to 6 nights at a $50 a night hotel and you're pretty close to $500 for the year complete. However, for the premier teams that play in larger leagues and more tournaments and have paid coaches, that's a drop in the bucket. My son moved from our local club to a higher level club an hour away when he was U15. Last year, the total cost for my son's U16 team including all travel expenses was in area of $4,500. They play in the Region II National League -- so that's 4 weekends traveling somewhere in an 8 state area. They played a Christmas tournament in Florida plus 3 spring tournaments, State Cup and a summer tournament in Colorado. Add in the team fees, cost for renting indoor training facilities November thru February, etc. and it all adds up. This year he is in ODP too, so the total will likely be higher. So -- there's the $250 a season option and there's the $4,500 a year option. There's also a couple other clubs in between around here too -- he could play with a local club that doesn't do the Christmas tourney so doesn't have that expense not to mention the expense of training in the winter. But he's shooting for a college scholarship and works VERY hard. Fortunately, my wife and I can support him in his endeavor -- although once or twice we've had to either send him to a tournament without us or get help from Grandparents. He also pays for about 20% himself. It really all depends upon what you're wanting out of soccer. The team that he started with is largely still together playing U19 in the local league this year. There are very few (if any) that will play college soccer off that team. I can only think of 2 that even want to and I'm not sure if they quite have the ability. Contrast that with my son's current team. I won't be surprised to see 12 to 14 of these guys wind up in a D1 college program. There's 1 or 2 kids that may not go to college and undoubtedly there's a couple that will choose to go to smaller schools. But the majority will wind up playing at the next level and doing well.
$4500! Damn thats one expensive club team. The team that I was speaking about being a former National Champion was the '99 U17 Braddock Road Warhawks. Every player on their roster ended up playing collegiately at some level. !4 of the 16 members on this team were involved with ODP and not even this team cost $4500. Does anyone know about how much it costs to play for one of traditional powers like Irvine Strikers, FC Delco, Chicago Sockers or DallasTexans?