32 teams to an All-time Word Cup Finals

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by Excape Goat, Nov 16, 2009.

  1. braine

    braine Member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Belgium
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain

    My perception of the XI-team is to start with the best eleven.
    Eventough Di Stefano's star didn't shine at a WC ,he's sure in my Argentina's XI-star(ters)team !
    Anyway in a WC you need more than 11 players,Rossi is for sure in my back-up team too ! ;)
     
  2. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    We could have a whole thread about this but how on Earth can Roberto Carlos be better than Maldini? Roberto Carlos couldn't defend to save his life. Maldini was the best because he played like a left-back and most importantly, people forget that the main purpose of a defender is to defend (except in Brazil where a backline can be classfied as the third-string attack). Everyone is too concerned about the overlapping concept and its importance in modern football.

    I'll admit that Roberto Carlos is better than Maldini at going forward but that's what he really did. He didn't have the defensive awareness of a Facchetti or Maldini. I haven't seen any footage of Nilton Santos but I heard that he was a very complete player (he was known as "The Encyclopedia") and he did win many trophies.
     
  3. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    I believe we already ahd a long discussion of Carlos vs Maldini in Soccerpulse forum.

    Maldini won the case with his longevity and specialty in defense (more appropriate to the position) over Carlos. But I think we can open a thread that compares Maldini and Fachetti as ultimate best LB in Italian jersey!

    Within Brazil NT, almost everyone would agree N.Santos is a better choice than R.Carlos (same quality in attack and much less exposed in defense) in Leftback position. Especially, if we are still bitter with Carlos' act (lacing his shoes during Zidane's set pieces) that allowed France to passed Brazil in WC06 quarter with Henry's freeroaming volley in front of him.
     
  4. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    No one did Spain!?

    Spain

    -------Zamora
    S.Ramos--Hierro---Migueli----Camacho
    ----------Xavi----------
    Michel--Luis Suarez----Gento
    -------------Raul--------
    Butragueno
     
  5. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    I've never been on that forum but there was a thread on this forum a few years ago and most people preferred Maldini over R Carlos.

    I'd take Maldini. Facchetti never had an outstanding tornament despite winning 94 caps.

    We haven't even mentioned R Carlos' blunder against Denmark at France 98 yet! ;)
     
  6. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Maybe. However I think Fernandez, Deschamps and arguably Petit all deserve to be picked at least as much as him.
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    If I was a bookmaker, which I'm not, I think the odds for the All-Time World Cup Champions, the Golden Shoe winner and the Golden Boot for Best Player of Tournament award would be something like as follows based on the 32 teams listed qualifying:

    To win tournament-----------Golden Boot--------Golden Shoe
    11/4 - Brazil-------------------3/1 - Pele-----------3/1 - Pele
    3/1 - France-------------------4/1 - A. Di Stefano--4/1 - D. Maradona
    5/1 - Argentina----------------4/1 - Ronaldo--------4/1 - J. Cruyff
    5/1 - Holland-------------------4/1 - M. van Basten-5/1 - A. Di Stefano
    5/1 - Italy---------------------5/1 - G. Muller-------5/1 - Z. Zidane
    6/1 - England------------------7/1 - D. Maradona---5/1 - M. Platini
    6/1 - Germany-----------------7/1 - Eusebio-------6/1 - F. Beckenbauer
    16/1 - Hungary----------------8/1 - G. Batistuta---7/1 - M. van Basten
    20/1 - Spain-------------------8/1 - F. Puskas-----8/1 - Ronaldo
    25/1 - Portugal----------------8/1 - G. Lineker-----10/1 - Eusebio
    28/1 - Denmark----------------8/1 - J. Fontaine----12/1 - F. Puskas
    33/1 - Soviet Union------------10/1 - J. Cruyff-----12/1 - B. Charlton
    33/1 - Uruguay----------------10/1 - M. Platini-----12/1 - Garrincha
    40/1 - Sweden-----------------10/1 - T. Henry-----12/1 - Zico
    50/1 - Czechoslovakia----------10/1 - Romario------14/1 - Ronaldinho
    50/1 - Yugoslavia---------------10/1 - P. Rossi-----14/1 - D. Bergkamp
    66/1 - Poland-------------------10/1 - J. Klinsmann-14/1 - R. Baggio
    80/1 - Cameroon----------------12/1 - Zico--------16/1 - B. Moore
    100/1 - Nigeria------------------12/1 - J. Greaves--16/1 - F. Baresi
    150/1 - Chile--------------------12/1 - D. Bergkamp-20/1 - M. Laudrup
    150/1 - Ghana-------------------12/1 - R. Baggio---22/1 - L. Yashin
    150/1 - Ivory Coast--------------12/1 - G. Meazza--25/1 - L. Matthaus
    200/1 - Mexico-----------------16/1 - K-H. Rummenigge-28/1 - T. Henry
    200/1 - Peru---------------------16/1 - S. Kocsis-----28/1 - L. Figo
    500/1 - Algeria-------------------16/1 - A. Shevchenko-33/1 - G. Muller
    750/1 - Australia-----------------25/1 - Raul--------33/1 - Rummenigge
    900/1 - South Korea--------------33/1 - L. Kubala---33/1 - S. Matthews
    1000/1 - Costa Rica--------------33/1 - P. Elkjaer----33/1 - T. Finney
    1000/1 - Japan-------------------33/1 - D. Suker----40/1 - E. Cantona
    1250/1 - Iran---------------------40/1 - G. Nordahl--40/1 - D. Savicevic
    1250/1 - Saudi Arabia-------------40/1 - H. Larsson--40/1 - J. Fontaine
    1250/1 - USA---------------------40/1 - R. Milla---40/1 - A. Shevchenko
     
  8. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    For me, your odds on France are too short and on Germany too long. I would swap them round and shorten Italy a touch.
    I would snap your arm off for odds of 5-1 on Muller as well. Kocsis at 16-1 also looks outstanding value.
     
  9. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I would love a punt on Uruguay or Gunnar Nordahl at those odds.

    Uruguay could boast an absolutely stellar team.
     
  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Interesting feedback - thanks. I felt France would have a true quality side drawing from 3 different eras (the 50's, the Magic Square era and the World Cup winning era). I realise though that the amount of quality on paper doesn't win tournaments by default and traditionally Germany are a side that have achieved the maximum from their team. In the end though I would favour France. Muller would be a prime candidate for the golden boot I know - my feeling was that teams such as Brazil and Holland might score more goals than Germany over the tournament although I think Germany would be well capable of 5 or 6 in a single game too and Muller could score a greater percentage of their goals. I felt that for an all-time World Cup the van Basten that played Euro 88 would be recreated and in that form with the service of Bergkamp and Cruyff he ought to score consistently so that's why his odds are a little shorther than Muller's. I really wasn't sure on Uruguay and out of the main teams their's would be the one I was most unsure of regarding the first 11 - perhaps I would know a few names but in terms of playing attributes and overall talent I'm not so sure - I guess a mixture of the 30's and 50's teams with Schiaffino and Francescoli as playmakers. It's hard to evaluate their merits compared to teams with a higher proportion of more recent stars - for example the 1950 side wasn't favoured to beat Brazil in the Final but historians now seem to rate at least the best players of the Uruguay side alongside the Brazilian stars and probably Schiaffino ahead of even Ademir and Zizinho, but Brazilian sides are deemed to have improved after that so how would 1950 Uruguay have fared against 1958 Brazil? I gave Hungary shorter odds as I deemed them a better side with more star players but I know during the 1954 World Cup a very similar side to the one which did so well against England a year earlier had a very close game with Uruguay. I felt personally that they would be a good side that would do well in the modern game but that a side like Soviet Union with their fast and skilful 80's team, Yashin in goal, Shevchenko as per around 2000, Kanchelskis as he was with Man Utd/Everton, Arshavin etc would be closely matched with them overall. I made Denmark shorter odds which may be controversial and there wouldn't be the gap in quality there was in the 86 World Cup but again despite having won no World Cups their overall all-time side should be quality. I'm expecting a few Uruguayan stars in your greatest X players countdowns Comme and hopefully a few posters will have some insightful knowledge of them - maybe Argentinian Soccer Fan and KingKong actually but Ianman and yourself probably have better knowledge about such players than the lay fan/bookmaker;).
    Again Nordahl was obviously a prolific scorer - I wonder if Shearer would be a close comparison from recent times or do you think he had better attributes overall as well as obviously more goals per game which you'd expect given the era's? 40/1 isn't ruling him or strike partner Larsson out but at least if they did win the Golden Boot the payouts would be covered by the bets on lower-priced candidates, unless Comme had a couple of million on him ;). While I think about it I'll mention that anyone in England that has sky TV can get ESPN Classic (don't know about abroad - maybe, but maybe different schedule) and currently classic World Cup games are being shown thursday nights at 10.30. So far there has been Brazil v England 1970, WC Final 1970 and Poland v Argentina 1974 and there are 47 more including tonight. I doubt enough members can see them to include the games in the Classic games threads but it's good stuff although not entire games. I was impressed by Tomaszewski last week actually and the entire Poland team was useful. I liked the midfield 3 with Deyna in between two other attacking players - no holding player at all there - the game ended 3-2 to Poland.
     
  11. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    True. But most of the top teams can draw top quality sides from different eras. France, I felt, lacked a quality striker and an keeper for this level to be the 2nd best team in this World Cup Finals. Fontaine or Henry isn't Gerd Muller. Germany can easily draw their team from the 1970's, 1980's and the 1990's. They have two or three players in the all-time best in their positions.

    Keepers: Maier, Schumacher, Kahn, Turek
    Fullbacks: Breitner, Vogts, Brehme, Bonhof, Kaltz, Lahm
    Centerbacks/Sweepers: Sammer, Beckenbauer, Kohler, Schnellinger, Forster, Stielike, Schwarzenbeck
    Midfielders/Wingers: Netzer, Matthaus, Briegel, Ballack, Overath, Rahn, Walter, Effenberg.
    Strikers: Muller, Seeler, Klinsmann, Klose, Voller, Fischer, Bierhoff.

    Argentina should also be ahead France. The defense has Fillol in goal with Zanetti, Perfumo, Marzolini and Passarella in front of him. Monti and Redondo protect the forward line of Di Stefano, Maradona, Batigoal and Sivori.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    You could be right - Germany certainly has a very strong squad. Actually I would definately include Pierre Littbarski and Karl-Heinz Rummenigge to add some extra pace, dribbling ability and creativity to the squad. One of them in the midfield area and one in a front 3 I think. Thomas Hassler would also be involved I think and you have his namesake Helmer and if they could keep him happy Bernd Schuster too who might make the squad. However, even without a goal-sniffer as sharp as Muller I still favour France personally. Henry and Cantona probably showed their best form in the Premiership but there's no reason they couldn't find it in a tournament like this. Fontaine once scored 13 goals in a World Cup finals and he would have the very creative Platini, Zidane, Pires, Tigana etc to supply him as well as Kopa who might still do so better than anyone. So for this tournament I think France actually have better depth than the Germans in terms of quality forwards and goalscorers - Muller would be expected to do very well but he has areas where he would not be as good as French strikers, skill and inspiration vs Cantona, pace and dribbling vs Henry, fluency vs Fontaine, flair vs Rocheteau, acrobatics and long range shooting vs Papin. I've made him sound rubbish now lol which of course he's not and don't get me wrong I wouldn't be that suprised if Germany did win a game against France or even the whole tournament.
     
  13. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I completely forgot about Rummenigge and Schuster.

    ----------------Maier
    --------------Beckenbauer-----
    Vogts---------Schnellinger-----Breitner/Brehme
    ----------Matthaeus.......Schuster/Netzer/Walter
    Rummenigge/Rahn--------------------Overath
    ------------Seeler------Muller

    Although I might move Beckenbauer to midfield so that it has a more modern approach to game.

    Cantona is an interesting prospect for France. I did not see his name mentioned much outside of England. I actually rated him ahead of Foutaine or even Papin.
     
  14. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    I don't get this sentence. Does it mean that Germany had less quality on paper when they won something than other teams at the time?

    Of the big football nations, Germany are third in terms of goals scored per game at World Cups. Both France & Holland are behind them:

    1. HUN 2.72
    2. BRA 2.18
    3. GER 2.06
    4. FRA 1.86
    5. ARG 1.74
    6. HOL 1.64
    7. URU 1.63
    8. ITA 1.58
    9. ENG 1.35


    But you can't ignore Marco van Basten's failure to score at the 1990 World Cup & the 1992 Euro. He also failed to score in important games during the 1984-85 World Cup qualifying campaign. Müller on the other hand never failed to score. During the 1968-69 World Cup qualifying campaign, he scored 9 times in 6 games. At the World Cup he scored 14 goals in 13 games, during the 1970-72 Euro campaign he scored 11 goals in 9 games. One can't really justify van Basten having shorter odds than Müller. It's not like Müller wouldn't have excellent service in an all-time Germany team (choosing from players like Overath, Netzer, Rummenigge, Matthäus, Schuster, Hässler, Haller, Walter, H.Müller, Magath, Breitner, Möller, Littbarski).
     
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes on occasions and I know it's a matter of opinion to define quality. There were times when, to the credit of their belief and resiliance perhaps, they went through against teams that had more skill in the team as a whole. The major example would be against France in 1982 where I feel Littbarski and the injury-troubled Rummenigge provided Germany's best skill but France had a team full of creativity and ability, certainly their midfield was better. What do you think about Euro '96 too for example - had England been the better team until the semi with Germany but still Germany made it through? I'm reluctant to mention WC 74 because that was Germany's best era but in the final they played a Holland side that I would say was the more fluent. Of course these opinions can be debated and anyway Germany won these games which would bode well for an all-time World Cup but my feeling is that the increase in quality and effectiveness from Germany's Euro 72 team for example by including a few stars from other era's wouldn't be quite as significant as the benefit certain other nations could get, such as France. Beckenbauer and Muller already played in the same side but Platini and Zidane would be something new, as would Cruyff and van Basten. Having said all that the comment you quoted was probably more directed at France than Germany - I felt on paper that the French squad was indeed the second best after Brazil overall.


    Firstly wow Hungary 2.72 gls per game, I guess there's 1954 but also they scored plenty of goals whenever they made it subsequently I suppose without being real contenders. I just realised my first comment above lacked the best example - the 1954 World Cup Final, 'Miracle of Berne':eek:, when West Germany beat Hungary. Germany being 3rd in that table is proof though that they are prolific scorers in general. They have been consistent in that as they normally have had competitive teams, more so than Holland, France, England etc who have had more variable histories. I would think in an all-time World Cup despite all the best defenders playing as well as the best attackers, Germany could score even more than 2.06 gls per game but I would expect Holland and France to comfortably improve on their averages.


    Agreed, van Basten did have times when he didn't seem half the player he could be. His goal scoring record overall for Milan is better and more consistent than for Holland actually. My odds assume he would/could be on absolute top form though.
    I appreciate your points though Gregoriak. I'd be interested to see what Babaorum or Johan Neeskens thinks as if they too thought I'd overrated their own nation then I guess I would be in most people's opinion. As with all bookmakers I guess the odds would start to vary when betting began though.
     
  16. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    I'd put him over Petit and maybe Fernandez.
     
  17. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Is that your own work? Nice try ,,,

    However, in term of goldenboot: Van Basten had no chance of equaling Ronaldo and no chance to be higher than Gerd Muller. Zico and Romario should be even higher than Lineker, Basten and Batistuta

    Ronaldo, Zico, Maradona, Garrincha all have capability to win both Golden shoe and golden ball (just like Pele).

    Garrincha is WAY TOO LOW. He would be in top5 (not Basten for God sake - this lad was a it too much media's darling just like Zidane)
     
  18. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Petit and Fernandez were more complete. They were able to do the defensive work as well as to go forward. You could argue that Makelele was better defensively but I'm not sure he really was.
     
  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The odds are up for discussion of course but one thing I did get wrong was that it is of course the Golden Shoe (also called Golden Boot - think I got confused cos I remembered it as Golden Boot from when Lineker won it even if it officially might not have been) for the top scorer and the Golden Ball, Silver Ball and Bronze Ball for the best 3 players. I think everyone realised that column 2 is for top scorers and column 3 for best players but I hope this clarifies it for anyone in doubt. I definately wouldn't have Muller as far as 33/1 for top scorer!
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I feel that with Pele installed as the favourite for the Golden Shoe and Golden Ball, he would be the number 1 candidate for these awards if Brazil had a great tournament. Therefore, regarding the top scorer odds, the likes of Zico and Romario are priced higher than players like Muller and indeed van Basten who would most likely be definate first choice players. The fact that Brazil would be expected to go far and score plenty though puts them ahead of the likes of Kocsis and Shevchenko who's teams would be a surprise if they got to the semi-finals. Again, with the Golden Ball Pele would be Brazil's main candidate although with injury/average performances by his standard, he could be outshined by Zico or Garrincha for example. Several Brazilian players could have an each-way chance (ie receive the Silver or Bronze ball award) but for all 3 places to be taken by Brazilians the individual players would have to be absolutely outstanding and the team win the tournament easily. Other nation's star players would therefore be in with a good each-way or even outright chance.
     
  21. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I think France have more depth than Germany in the midfield area, especially when it comes to creative midfielders (Platini, Kopa, Zidane, Giresse, Tigana...). If you only consider this point then France may very well be the second best behind Brazil... but not overall.

    Germany have the edge in the other departments : GK (by a mile), defense (slightly) and attack (by a confortable margin).

    I think France should be 5th in your ranking behind Brazil, Italy, Germany and Argentina.
     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    But you believe they could win? You would have some optimism that the creativity in midfield would be the deciding factor? The concensus seems to be to rank them lower then so I guess the only way I'd be proved right would be if they did win or come second.
     
  23. 621380

    621380 Member

    Feb 21, 2004
    germany
    fine.....but you have to put in perspective rummenigge was injury troubled.....and bernd schuster (a very creative player didnt play for germany)...(the german team was european champion 1980 with schuster..)

    imagine

    littbarski
    rummenigge (fit)
    schuster

    against

    platini
    tigana
    giresse

    looks pretty close in creativty...

    however the germans still have played a excellent game in the semifinal against france without schuster and a injury troubled rummenigge where has joined the team late in the game.....
     
  24. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I am worried that Zidane and Platini would get in the way of each other. France might be more effective with a wide player on the left.
     
  25. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    In terms of creativity I think France would still have the edge. France actually played with three number 10 (Platini, Giresse, Genghini) + Tigana.

    In the semi-final France was too much forward-orientated. Germany was a better-balanced team.
     

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