We just went thru this series of 7 games against opponents who will be at the World Cup. Pochettino used Johnny and Musah in none of those games. He did, by the way, call up and use Sands in October. Even when other midfielders were out or unavailable. Like McKennie and Adams being unavialble in November. In Musah's case, the last time we saw him start a game it was actually at right back. [Nations League semifinal] This was before Dest came back from injury and Freeman had broken out. So there's that. Most of his appearances under Poch have been as a RM/RB. Unless Johnny has had an injury that's kept him out of every start since the terrible performance against Switzerland., Poch has simply prioritized other players. That was also the last start for Matt Turner, Walker Zimmerman, and others. We've had some real USMNT clunkers of the last 30+ years that I've been a fan. That Switzerland performance was up there. Heads seemed to have rolled.
Musah is now playing every match for Atalanta often the first player off the bench. He still looks like he is processing coaching instructions and playing very conservatively but one constant remains, if he has the ball at his feet the opponent can never take it away. That attribute is extremely important at a WC when we are playing tough opponents. Musah combining with Tillman makes us very press resistant. There will be times during a match when we need to give the ball to a midfielder to relieve pressure. Folks seem to forget just how good a 20yo Musah was against quality opponents at WC2022. A snippet from that time may help some remember: Musah is leading the team in passes completed in the final third during the World Cup with 36. He's ahead of Pulisic (32), McKennie (31), Weah (31) and Adams (30). It shows just how much the midfield is interchanging with the attacking players to make the team tick even without a proper striker. Almost one third of Musah's total passes are coming in the final third. That's because he's been allowed to operate in advanced positions consistently to keep Pulisic involved in the match and create safety valves so the team can't get boxed in by the defenses that they've faced so far. https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/ne...nnie-tyler-adams-gives-blueprint-for-success/
Musah turned down the Gold Camp callup for personal reasons which pissed Poch off given that Musah directly contradicted the commitment message that Poch was trying to send. Simple as that.
Let me start by saying I have no idea what Musah's personal reasons were. Now that said, when your National Team play has been weak and you aren't even playing for your club, you DO NOT turn down a callup.
Versatility. Athleticism. Ball retention and progression. He'd be a great player to bring off the bench.
I suppose there's some positional versatility, but there's not a lot of versatility in his skillset or play style. Very much. Sure. Meh. I would not view this as a positive / strength versus much of his competition for a roster slot. He brings a certain type, but it's not particularly aligned with how we are playing. Well, surely not in a game we are trailing. And I don't think he's necessarily a better defensive option than quite a few of the other options like Morris, Roldan or Johnny.
Have you honestly been watching him play over the last month? He's a much better player than you are giving him credit for.
Nope. But I've seen absolutely no one -- not on here nor on reddit or anywhere else I look -- actually posit that he's improved. Well, until you kind of implied it here though not explicitly. Which I find interesting. All I've seen are arguments that "he's playing in Serie A" or references to athleticism, press resistance, etc. Stuff we know about Musah. His stats reflect the same player -- good at progressive runs, not good at passing, not going to create much offense. Since you've watched him, what's he drastically improved? Do you have examples? He's played 242 minutes in December and January ... how do we feel about that sample size? For me, I don't see the point of Yunus on this team if he cannot move the ball quickly via the pass. That's how Poch wants to play; that's the only time we've looked good. If he can, great. Call him in. If you think he can but doesn't do it at Atalanta ... well, I'll trust Poch. But I have no interest in what people seem to moon over -- a guy who makes pretty runs and holds the ball but never does anything with it. So I'll ask: our fortunes have changed as our CMs have become much more active and ranging on defense while simultaneously becoming very aggressive on offense, not holding the ball but moving it forward quickly, getting forward on offense and generating overloads and chances out of the midfield. Our defense has improved not only with the aggression but with smart defensive play from the CMs in terms of covering for each other and playing smart. Has Musah become that guy?
I think the issues with Musah go beyond his abilities on the field. His play for the USMNT under Poch was OK. Then he turned down the Gold Cup callup (for reasons we don't know). We haven't seen him since. .....................Pochettino has been going hard in press conferences about what he's looking for in terms of culture and mindset for his players. THe passion to wear the badge and play for the country, blah, blah, blah. So, yes, I think Musah is a talented enough player to make the USMNT roster. Even if he's the EXACT same player that he was in 2022 and hasn't developed at all. Go watch those WC games again. .................but there's something beyond that with Musah. I know that's conjecture on my part. With Johnny? I don't know. When he's played for the USMNT under Pochettino, he hasn't played particularly well. At some point, club resume doesn't matter. Pochettino has said as much. At some point what we perceive as a player's skill set and ability level don't matter. At some point you have to do the business on the field in the way a coach wants. If you don't, somebody else is going to get an opportunity. A guy like Berhalter is showing that he also has some traits worthy of consideration. Aidan Morris and Tanner Tessmann and these guys have good qualities too. They may not play for Athletico Madrid, but they aren't duds. This is good competition. Johnny is one who missed several windows in a row with injury. But played the games before the window and played the games after the window. He did that twice. Just asked to be rested for the international window. And I do kinda wonder if that also gets into a manager's head as well. Do you want to be part of this group?????
I am for bringing in the players that maximize team outcomes. Sometimes sending a message does that. But if you let a star do the same thing without punishment then the value of the gesture is hollow.
Versatility is only valuable if you are good. Ok he's just that ok. Athleticism - One of the most overrated attributes in sports. It can be a terrific attribute. But you need the skill set to go with it. He is very athletic. But the problem the rest of it is not where it needs to be. Ball retention - Yes he IS fantastic at that. Progression - Really? IMO its mostly due to his ball retention. He is just ok at passing and his fianl third play is terrible. So again I think there are better players but if you are protecting a lead then he probably does have some good value off the bench.
You really should watch him. He's a really nice player. What has he drastically improved? I'm not sure that he has done that, but I do think that your assessment of him is off. He's not "ponderous" on the ball. He's very good defensively. He's excellent in possession and is very good on the dribble. He's very athletic and is extremely versatile with the ability to play in several positions on the field. He fits your description of "active and ranging on defense while simultaneously [being] aggressive on offense." He doesn't "hold onto the ball," often eliminating players off the dribble. He draws a lot of fouls and threatens defenses. He's super press resistant due to this ability. He's been very good defensively, too. He's just a really good player, and the perception of him around here is generally way off.
Ok, have you watched him over the last month with Atalanta? This stuff just doesn't add up... Even if you are going for a goal, he could be useful. For example, bringing Musah, Reyna, Pepi, and Weah off the bench would add plenty of fire power, and Musah would be able to cover a lot of ground as the game opened up and be reliable in possession.
Star players get special treatment. Yes. Its true. Doesn't matter the sport. Pulisic and McKennie and the like are in the WC team. They can take a window or two off. These types of players do it for other nations. In 2024 and 2025, Mbappe asked out of windows for France to prioritize his fitness for Madrid. He supposedly told them he wanted to be selective about appearing in "non-essential" international matches from now on. When you're a Ballon d'Or winner you can get away with that. Did the press roast him? Yes. When the games mattered he was back in the squad, and he continued scoring goals. Guys on the fringes fighting for roster spots can't do that. Particularly guys whose performances for the USMNT haven't been outstanding, and who aren't doing a heck of a lot in club soccer. Johnny has played 229 La Liga minutes this year. Musah has played 379 Serie A minutes this year. Weston McKennie has already played almost 2000 minutes across all competitions for Juventus. If a guy like McKennie says in November "Yeah, I'm really fatigued after so many games. I want to manage my minutes, so I'm not overworked prior to the 2nd half of the Serie A season. I dont' want to be dead when its time for the World Cup. Can I take this November window off?".........................we say yes. Which could be what happened, because the reason Pochettino gave for leaving him off the roster made absolutely no sense. Musah asking off the Gold Cup roster is different than Pulisic asking off the Gold Cup roster. It just is. And we still have never been told the reason that Musah wasn't on the roster. At least Pulisic came out and was open about his reason.
He's played like 250 minutes in the last two months. I haven't missed that much of Musah. Has he really shown that much different than the player he was before. Then I don't really care that he comes in. I don't think he offers much versus what we've been calling in aside from athleticism. He's ponderous in his decision making. He does not move the ball quickly and when he does, it's rarely incisive or creating value. If he hasn't improved on that, I'm not sure what player you are watching. Yes, he can hold off a presser but he doesn't ever exploit the fact that he can beat pressure. When he gets the ball in space, he can move forward, but once the defense slows him, he's not getting the ball to the open man. There are many instances of this with the US. People would ooh and aah at his runs but they never even created a chance, much less a goal. If he hasn't improved that, he's not very useful. No, he's athletic in defense. Unless he's improved massively, he often disappears and he's not overly capable at reading the opposing attack. I would not want him playing the more defensive of the two CMs; I'm not sure he has the soccer IQ and decision making to be effective. He's not bad, for sure. He can take guys one on one and his combination of size and speed is super helpful and not easily exploited one on one. But he doesn't have the anticipation in the passing lanes like and Adams or Morris and he doesn't have a consistent motor which makes him a less capable team defender than people make him out to be. There's a reason Pochettino and multiple club coaches have played him out on the wing and not in the middle. Again, I'm aware he's playing CM now which was why I asked, has he improved? Because his prior year or so defensively was full of mental errors that made his coaches lose trust. I will challenge this again. He's not very good at offense. I don't want him coming onto the field when we want a goal. Versatility can mean a lot of things, but I don't consider a player versatile when they are missing multiple skill sets. In what world is he aggressive on offense? At some point, you either have to admit that Musah is not this guy or we just go our separate ways. Aggressive on offense? I also don't think he's particular active on defense, and despite his speed, even in the MMA days, Musah was never really a defensive destroyer but rather simply solid. He makes a few runs a game and largely does little else. (2.41 progressive carries but under 4 progressive passes. The first is high for a CM ... but in absolute terms it's less than 3 a game. The latter is not good). Those runs usually end with almost nothing coming of them because again, he's not good at translating those runs into an advantage because he takes too long to find the next guy. About 1.5/90. That's good for a CM but ok. Not really. Low passes into the final third. He's a poor shot. Not a good passer. He does well on the dribble and has been good receiving balls going forward, which are both nice. But he's brought on as a defensive replacement for this reason. He's pressure-resistant, for sure. But that's not how Pochettino wants to beat the press. Poch wants to beat it by coordinated use of superior numbers and aggressive passing, moving quickly. Not long dribbles that end with the player running into two guys and protecting the ball. Again, has he improved? Because he wasn't coming into the last few months. He made enough mental mistake to be a liability centrally. That's just a vague standard. We've got lots of really good players. If he was that much better a player, he'd be playing better. He's got TONS of potential. If he can improve certain parts of his game, he'll be an impactful player. But he wasn't four months ago. If he's improved those, great ... but you don't seem to think he has.
@don Lamb Let me give you an example of where you and I diverge. Here's probably Yunus' best and most recent "best skills" youtube video -- it basically encompasses his entire career until July. He's very impressive in many ways in it. He can dribble, for sure. But keeping in mind it's an all time highlight video, where you are probably very impressed ... and I am at the dribbling as well ... Like, there's so much potential there if the next decision is the correct one ... I will simply note how many of these highlights end before anything really happens. Often before Musah gets rid of the ball. You see him slow, about to try and convert the defenders he's eliminated into a goal chance and ... cut. Why? Because nothing came of like 98% of these. Not even a good shot. When I saw he's a slow decision maker, this is part of what I mean. And this is a highlight video. If Poch thinks he can fix this as well as the defensive lapses, great. But I'd rather roll out players who are both more effective on defense and move the ball in less flashy, but more effective ways. I also have another question: what USMNT game did Yunus Musah ever play where you thought he was great in? Has he ever been Man of the Match? There's another person on here who claims he was a Top 5 reason for our progression in Qatar -- do you agree with that? You don't need to be that guy to be useful, but when I read some of these things, there's a lot of fluff on his actual game.
Exactly. Pulisic got to take time off and waltz right back into the team. What kind of message does that send to the guys? If you're going to stress commitment, you've got to put your money where your mouth is. Idgaf if you think you're a "star", no one player should be above the team. Puli should have had to face consequences for skipping the summer, just like how Landycakes paid the price for his Cambodia debacle by being left off the plane to Brazil.
He's got six appearances for Atalanta in the last month. All due respect, but if you haven't seen any of that, I'm not sure how you are making these judgements. He's playing at a high level, and he's sure to continue playing consistently given how well he's played. I don't necessarily think he's made gigantic gains over the last few months because I think your assessment of him was off. In your eyes, if you had seen him over the last month, I am guessing you would see a different player. To me, he is showing his class and potential over the past month. It's been an important step for his integration into his new team. He looks comfortable. The coach has learned how he can fit into the team and seems to be gaining confidence in him. I think those are the things that have led to him showing well, not some amazing jump in ability. I think you should rely less on stats that lack context and vague generalities and watch him more. You would probably have a different impression of where he is right now.
Yeah, I don't think coaches will throw good players under the bus for a mistake, even a big one, but when you make one they really key in on how you respond to it.
......................also the players Poch is calling up in the position aren't chopped liver. We have a lot of good competition in central midfield. Who's arguing that Johnny and Musah aren't good players? They are. hhe guys that are being selected are good players too. Good players aren't going to make the World Cup squad. James Sands plays in the Bundesliga, and I don't see him in a lot of squad projections either. Aidan Morris is having a really good year for Boro, and I don't see him in many projects. Gianluca Busio is having a strong year as Venezia is in strong position for promotion back to Serie A. He's faded back. Why is a player like Roldan being selected? Poch has told us in press conferences why he admires Cristian Roldan. Its not actually a mystery.
That's great, but I am basing my evaluation mostly off what he has done over the past month. There haven't been defensive lapses -- quite the opposite, actually. And, he has been playing further back on the field, which has highlighted his ball progression abilities. He's not a 10, and I'm not sure anybody expects him to be. Your criticism is also a little overblown and general in that he is capable of creating danger in the attacking third even if that isn't a strength of his. As an 8, he's really solid. As a wingback, he's very solid. Filling either of these roles coming off the bench would be a perfect role for him, in my opinion. I'll also say that games often get scattered in the final stages. Having someone who can cover ground defensively and is ball secure at the same time can very valuable.
He's got 252 minutes in the past two months. I'll check him out again at some point, but let's not act like what is mostly a bunch of 20 minute close outs. His median time in December and January is 24 minutes; he's got three performances over 45 minutes in the whole year. I watched him earlier in the year and I'll check him out again, but let's not act like there's this huge sample. But even so, I asked if he improved materially, and you've told me no. You and I clearly did not evaluate him similarly prior to this, so we're going to be pretty far apart. You just mean he's playing in Serie A, right? Because I have yet to see any indication that he's played particularly well. Is he? Are you willing to bet on the pile of consistency that is Yunus Musah? He's sure to do so, huh? I doubt it. The stats, at least, don't show me a player who has changed. He has 6 shot creating actions in those last 7 games -- about 2/90. He only has 7 progressive carries -- lower than at Milan. 4 tackles, 3 interceptions, 2 shots ... Stats don't mean everything, but averaging 2 progressive carriers, 1 tackle, 1 interception and a bit less than a shot per 90 is not exactly compelling me to think there's some massive performance here. He's still playing so I'm sure he's been solid. His start against Genoa looks ... fine. No offense but this is a meaningless word. . We all know Musah's potential. No one is questioning the physical and skillset. It's about performance now. We are now two months from the last independent USMNT window. Potential is moot. I don't know what you mean by "showing well." He's playing a backup/rotational role and not getting benched. I've seen nothing outside of USMNT fans singing his praises. There's an incredible vagueness to this whole post. You seem certain that it is just a matter of time for Musah, as if he's never played for a bit, then lost his role. Or as if he's not likely a backup for Atalanta. When we argued re: Freeman and Scally over the summer, it's pretty clear you value simply treading water at a high level a ton and have a tendency to call a player who is rotational or a one dimensional but affordable solution at a position as "playing really well." When a club fan would simply say they were solid or holding their own. I suspect Musah is doing just fine for a Serie A rotational player. But that doesn't mean he's improved or is necessarily better than some of his competition for the USMNT. Please stop. I've been far more specific than you have, with your "class" or "showing well" or "showing his potential." The vast majority of my observations are of watching him, and I'm far more specific in both my use of stats AND subjective measures. I will watch him again sometime, but let's stop acting like I haven't seen a ton of Musah... and you say he hasn't improved much so it's not spurring me to watch. As for specifics, if you'd like to address specifics, for example, please address the idea that he's "offensively aggressive" -- something that even Musah's mom wouldn't claim. I don't particularly dislike Musah, but the dude has some massive gaping holes in his game. The fact that you can't recognize these pluses and minuses makes this a really tough discussion. I don't really see him as a better alternative to players that have performed recently in the shirt unless he can fix some of those: He's a subpar passer He's a slow decision maker He's poor in the final third (partially due to the above, partially due to a subpar shot) He went through a run of poor defensive play due to mental errors, which definitely is not as persistent in his whole career as the above All of these have very verifiable statistical or scouting backup. I totally understand if you don't value these assets and value his strengths, but for me, these things put Musah in basically a fringe territory, competing for a reserve role in the roster. For me, this is a Pochettino call. If he thinks he can get Musah to play the way he wants, great. Poch has never played him in the middle. He clearly wants guys who think quickly and pass quickly. So he's not the best fit centrally for Poch. But Poch has gotten a lot of guys to perform, so I trust his gut on viability. The potential is there, so if he wants to take another crack, go for it, dude. But if he doesn't, I'm also with him. We're past the point with Musah where the performance is on the steep part of the learning curve. The potential is still there, but performance has stalled for 3 years or so. The default assumption should not be an acceleration of performance but a "prove it." If he proves these as clubs, I'd say he's more deserving. But I also am completely fine with putting him in the hole he dug for himself.
It's been one month, not two. No, I don't mean he's simply playing in Serie A. He's playing well consistently in his minutes. Yeah, it's extremely likely that he continues to get more minutes with Atalanta based on the last month. You say you are a believer in Musah's potential, but it appears that you aren't willing to change your opinion on him. You haven't even watched him play in months, but you are somehow convinced you know exactly who he is as a player in this moment in time. The "gaping holes" that you describe have not been evident over the last month. I'm sure your stats will show you that somewhere. I've been telling you this, but you persist with those descriptors of his game that don't match up with how he's actually been playing. I clearly qualified my statement about him not improving much, so I'm not sure why you keep harping on that. Like, you want to take my word literally when it's been qualified and is clearly semantic, but then you want to pick apart and distrust my word that is based on actually watching Musah play in favor of super precise numbers with super narrow context and your own viewing from a different time period. It's like defending the argument that you are entrenched in is more important to you than accuracy.
That is good to hear. Let's hope he keeps it up because this is what killed his playing time before. He doesn't have a progressive pass in his last three games. Let's not overstate what he can do. He is very good at progressive dribbles, but he's averaging 2 per game in this stretch. He must get more aggressive there to be effective. But if the passing continues to lag, you also have to consider the space the dribbles leave behind. He has to be more effective at the end of those dribbles to make if worth keeping the other CM home so much. Dude, I'm capable of creating danger in the final third. Our standard here isn't "it could happen." Everything here is about frequency and percentages. It's a comparison to his competition -- his Serie A competition and his USMNT competition -- guys like Berhalter, Tessman, Johnny, Morris, Roldan. He's poor in the final third. At his best, I'd agree. It's the best definition of him. I don't think he's ever been great for the US. He's not going to create much offense, and you honestly have to adapt to that. He's nicely ball secure though he gets in trouble sometimes being too confident. When he's playing well, he's a good defender if not great. I mean no. There's no reason for this USMNT with options like Weah, Dest and Freeman to use a guy who is poor in the final third as a wingback right now. If we lose two of those guys, sure, we can talk because he is a good defender out there. But one of our big issues for much of Pochettino's time here has been a complete lack of effective wide play on the right. Freeman's maturation and Dest getting healthy have been a big boon to that; we do not want to go back to someone who doesn't do much on the right if we can help it. As I noted, I don't think he's anywhere near top 3 on the RWB depth chart. In a pinch, I could play Wes there as well, and if Scally is on my roster for other reasons, he's an option. I simply don't need Musah there. At RW, I would need a Weah or Dest injury to even consider. Weah/Dest/McKennie is stacked; there's no reason a healthy roster has Musah anywhere near this. If we end needing to use McKennie elsewhere and one of Dest and Weah is hurt, I am thinking about less speedy wide players as well here -- say, Zendejas. But that's a scenario where Musah might enter, just for defense. So CM. Hopefully we both agree that Adams and Wes/Tillman (whoever is not at CAM) are ahead of him in the CM dynamics. Which means he's competing for a single role with Tessman, Roldan, Morris, Berhalter and Johnny. His advantage against those guys is athleticism, to my eye. It's not a bad reason to take a guy, but in the context of having a roster with bench guys like Reyna, Aaronson, Luna as CAM backups and Tessman and Berhalter at CM ... Musah has to be playing a defensive role, right? It's a crowded house there for 1, maybe 2 spots. Roldan has been great for Poch. Morris is basically a younger Roldan. Johnny is a fantastic defender at club and very skilled offensively, even if he tends to have some of the same issues as Musah. If he can adapt his defensive style, he seems like someone Poch could unlock offensively and seems more likely to be a weapon at that than Musah. It comes down to athleticism versus performance for me. How much you think someone like Roldan, who has played really well for the US, will hold up athletically against all comers. He's played well against PSG and he's played well against a slew of World Cup teams. But there is no doubt that he's not Yunus athletically.
You use the stat that he has 0 progressive passes to I guess say that he hasn't been that good in those games? Roma - 30 mins 12/14 passes 1 pass into final third 2/2 long passes 0 dispossessed Bologna - 22 mins 9/10 passes 0 dispossessed Fouled 5 times 5/5 ground duels won Torino - 23 minutes 8/8 passes 2/2 accurate crosses It's bizarre to pick out one stat as a way to dismiss his performance over these three games. Also, since you say that Freeman is definitively better, I have to call out that Freeman has defensive lapses himself. He had several in the Gold Cup, and he had them pretty regularly in MLS. He is also nowhere near as secure with the ball as Musah is. It's just crazy that you are so locked in on these opinions. His advantage over guys like Morris and Berhalter in the athleticism department is huge, so it's not something to shrug off lightly. He also has a ton more experience in intense and high-pressure environments than those guys. That is a big deal when we are talking about performing at a World Cup. He is also much more dynamic than those guys. You try to narrow down into these little silos, but there is so much more that goes into the game than these neat descriptions. Roldan is the one who I would say is potentially a better option than Musah on the World Cup roster, but I like Musah's versatility in that comparison. Most of the other guys that you mention, I would take along with Musah, so I agree that he's not beating out the Tessmanns and Reynas of the world. Luna and Zendejas, I would take one of also, and I would lean toward Zendejas at the moment. Johnny, I'm not sure about. He's one that I would be watching closely to see if he has a similar resurgence like Musah seems to be having.