2025 USL/NWSL/USOC/MLS Next Pro Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by Dayton Ref, Mar 7, 2025.

  1. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member+

    Jun 3, 2001
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    After a 2 hour and 18 minute thunder delay, the Houston Dash scored the game-winner in the final minute to defeat Gotham FC 2-1.

    It appeared to me that the player was at least a step off at the kick-point as the AR is actually ahead of the play. Since NWSL doesn't have as many cameras for VAR as MLS does and assuming this is their best video to look at, is it sufficient to change the call on the field of a goal?

    The play starts at the 6:29 mark of the video:


     
  2. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Did anyone see the NWSL inside video review this week? Can someone explain barkey’s logic? So just because the players are both focused on the all instead of on one another, this contact is ok?

    https://youtu.be/Wucph-J05u0?si=fQ1cKJWqdmTC8u89
     
  3. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    I guess it's just that it's trifling, or as the referee said it originally, a "normal running motion."
     
  4. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    just a coming together
     
  5. weka

    weka Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    PHX v ELP - 62' - PHX gets a 2nd yellow and the CR doesn't show the subsequent red card. PHX attempts to sub the player out and CR notices they're trying to sub him out and the PHX gets red carded as he's stepping off (while he's jogging) while the subbed player is trying to get subbed in and then once the PHX coaching staff sees the red card, the staff shoo the trying-to-be-subbed-in player back off the line.
     
    StarTime repped this.
  6. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Wasn’t there a Phoenix match a few years ago where almost the exact same thing happened except the referee didn’t notice at all?

    Props to whoever on the crew figured it out before play restarted.
     
  7. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Greater Pittsburgh
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    USOC semis tonight and tomorrow. No idea on the match officials, unfortunately. Anyone have a clue?
     
    StarTime repped this.
  8. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Looks like Rivas had the whistle in Nashville vs Philly.
     
  9. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    MLSNext Pro
    Austin FC II vs St Louis CITY 2
    Parmer Field (8:30PM ET)
    Ref: Ismail Elfath
    AR1: Zach McWhorter
    AR2: Josh Ell
    4th: Emmy Nonso
     
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  10. weka

    weka Member+

    Dec 9, 2011
    Very promising lad I hear.

    Heard he was a 4th on World Cup Final...whatever that is
     
  11. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Greater Pittsburgh
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes. As for the rest of the crew...I dunno. MLS website has a Canadian at AR2 so clearly not accurate. Wasn't paying enough attention to see.
     
  12. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Alexis Da Silva with the whistle in Minnesota. I can spot Jose Da Silva as AR2, and I think Cory Richardson as AR1.

    Thoughts in the 24’ incident? 2:50 in this video
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There was a time...

    I think the answer here is somewhat simple, though frustrating. We used to always consider this violent conduct. It's a deliberate act unrelated to the sport and off-the-ball. It's more than negligible contact or, at the very least, it's intended as more than negligible contact. We used to punish the act as VC, period.

    I think you have a few factors now working in the other direction, though--both generally and in this specific circumstance. At the professional level, if there's no real damage, referees lean yellow. Witness the advent of the "light headbutt." This is probably a cousin to that, honestly. You've also got this phenomenon where referees seem to leave borderline or doubtful VC calls to the VAR and then VAR is less likely to intervene because somehow it's not clear. It's a vicious doom loop where we have less VC called in the VAR era (though, one could argue, there might actually be less VC too because some players think twice). And then finally you have the time, score and competition. I think any referee is less likely to give a red in the 24' of a 0-0 cup semifinal if, you know, there isn't blood or a torn sock here. The victim is pissed off, but he doesn't seem to be hurt at all.

    It would be nice to know if the powers that be think this is yellow or red. For me, in an age where increasingly everything has to have a black and white answer, it seems odd that there are a lot of VC decisions where we've strayed away from that. Handball penalties and SFP/reckless challenges are picked apart but potential VC like this still feels much more ambiguous from an instructional standpoint.
     
  14. the_phoenix612

    Manchester United
    United States
    Sep 13, 2022
    Houston, TX
    I will never stop being baffled at situations like this not being VC red. Why on earth is this something that we want to be part of the game? There's no justification for it other than petulance (at best) or intent to injure (at worst).

    It's cowardice on the part of referees and the only result is that players take justice into their own hands.
     
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  15. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Greater Pittsburgh
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I dunno. It's one thing if it's still the standard and the expectation, but it's just not anymore. You can't expect referees to go out there and officiate like it's the late 90s. They wouldn't be supported by the powers that be.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well I guess that's the question/issue. Is petulance a yellow or red card? Because when you use that word, my mind actually goes to yellow.

    We don't want this in our game. But we also don't want dissent or SPA. Some things we don't want in our game, but we still allow players to do once instead of zero times.

    But if it's consistent with prevailing instruction, it's not cowardice. And, in this case, no one did take justice into their own hands.

    Don't get me wrong, there are obviously arguments for a red. And I agree with a lot of them. But with this one, in context, the threat of retaliatory justice doesn't seem like one of them.
     
  17. the_phoenix612

    Manchester United
    United States
    Sep 13, 2022
    Houston, TX
    I'm not accusing on-the-field officials of cowardice. I'm accusing the prevailing instructions of cowardice.
     
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  18. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    There are multiple aspects of soccer rules where cowardice has dominated officiating. The GK 6 second rule was a farce for decades because of cowardice of giving an IFK in the box. FRD has become a farce where referees instead always default to a warning for it because of cowardice. DR is regularly a farce with just a warning usually given because of cowardice. Rampant dissent from players and technical staff has become accepted as “part of the culture” because of cowardice. This week’s UCL and Ligue 1 misconducts for lunging at an opponent from behind with no chance at the ball just to cynically stop an attack is regularly not given a red card because of cowardice. This is just another in a long line.
     
  19. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Greater Pittsburgh
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    the_phoenix612 and weka repped this.
  20. the_phoenix612

    Manchester United
    United States
    Sep 13, 2022
    Houston, TX
    AremRed and frankieboylampard repped this.
  21. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Not that Tori and the others don’t deserve it, but it’s pretty hard to ignore the elephant in the room that the first Final appointed by [I presume] Kari Seitz in her new role is the exact same crew Seitz appointed to the last Final in her old role (after 2/3 of them having already had the semifinal).

    Like maybe this is a hot take, but assigning like this seems pretty bad. Usually when people play favorites or politics or whatever you want to call it, it’s at least not this blatant. Reading this assignment, along with the way the federation is marketing it, leaves it pretty hard to believe that anyone else ever had a fair chance…
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes, and...

    She's clearly going to the World Cup next year and hasn't had our domestic men's cup final. Dickerson is in Chile and Elfath hasn't done a USSF-organized match in 2+ years?

    If you strip away gender, she actually is the default/sensible option. If Eddy had made this appointment, I think we (at least I) would be praising him for seeing the big picture. So Seitz is maybe damned if she does, damned if she doesn't here.
     
  23. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I don't think his issue is with Penso's appointment per se. It's the appointment of the rest of the crew as entirely women (4th and AVAR withstanding).

    If you're going to clearly trying to make history why not go completely all-in? There wasn't an available female AVAR and 4th?
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well in that case, the ARs are in her crew. Still makes sense.

    The VAR assignment, on the other hand, is clearly forced and probably won’t please a lot of people.
     
  25. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I'm pragmatic enough to know that some of these gender and racial ceilings have to be broken and you have to rip the band aid off per se. It's never gonna be fair and clean where no one screams "DEI appointment!!!"

    You eventually have to have an all women crew on a major Final. Some steps, inevitably have to be skipped or you'll never get there.

    My issue is the degree which some of these steps are being skipped.

    Has there ever been an all-female crew on a US Open Cup semi-final or quarter-final before?

    It's like when Frappart did Super Cup Final or went to the World Cup. It's fine if she skips some of the steps that every other referee in history did before her to get that appointment. You have to accelerate it to an extent.

    But she did a Super Cup Final without so much as officiating a single group stage match in the Champions League much less multiple knockout matches that every other referee before her did.

    That's where I think it is reasonable to push back on some of these all women appointments.
     

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