2024 MLS Match Day 27 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by ManiacalClown, Jul 17, 2024.

  1. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    07/17/24

    Atlanta United vs New York City FC
    Mercedes-Benz Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Lukasz Szpala
    AR1: Gianni Facchini
    AR2: Kevin Lock
    4TH: Alyssa Nichols
    VAR: David Barrie
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    FC Cincinnati vs Chicago Fire
    TQL Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Filip Dujic
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Ricardo Ocampo
    4TH: Jon Freemon
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    Columbus Crew vs Charlotte FC
    Lower.com Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Victor Rivas
    AR1: Walt Heatherly
    AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    4TH: Calin Radosav
    VAR: Kevin Stott
    AVAR: Ian McKay

    Inter Miami vs Toronto FC
    Chase Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Jair Marrufo
    AR1: Cory Richardson
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Abdou Ndiaye
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi
    AVAR: Tom Supple

    New York Red Bulls vs CF Montréal
    Red Bull Arena (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Sergii Boiko
    AR1: Brian Dunn
    AR2: Felisha Mariscal
    4TH: Adam Kilpatrick
    VAR: Carol Anne Chenard
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    Philadelphia Union vs New England Revolution
    Subaru Park (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Rubiel Vazquez
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Kyle Atkins
    4TH: Sergii Demianchuk
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Katherine McCormick

    FC Dallas vs Austin FC
    Toyota Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Diego Blas
    4TH: Chris Penso
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    Minnesota United vs D.C. United
    Allianz Field (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Ricardo Fierro
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Matthew Corrigan
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Tom Felice

    Nashville vs Orlando City
    GEODIS Park (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Pierre-Luc Lauziere
    AR1: Jeffrey Greeson
    AR2: Ben Pilgrim
    4TH: Matt Thompson
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Jozef Batko

    LA Galaxy vs Colorado Rapids
    Dignity Health Sports Park (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Ismir Pekmic
    AR1: Nick Uranga
    AR2: Andrew Bigelow
    4TH: Malik Badawi
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    San Jose Earthquakes vs Houston Dynamo
    PayPal Park (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Natalie Simon
    AR1: Meghan Mullen
    AR2: Kali Smith
    4TH: Joe Dickerson
    VAR: Kevin Stott
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    Seattle Sounders vs St Louis CITY
    Lumen Field (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Alexis Da Silva
    AR1: Cameron Blanchard
    AR2: Mike Nickerson
    4TH: Gerald Flores
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi
    AVAR: Tom Supple

    Vancouver Whitecaps vs Sporting Kansas City
    BC Place (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Marcos DeOliveira
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Chris Elliott
    4TH: Michael Venne
    VAR: David Barrie
    AVAR: Ian McKay

    Los Angeles FC vs Real Salt Lake
    BMO Stadium (10:45PM ET)
    REF: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AR1: Stefan Tanaka-Freundt
    AR2: Tyler Wyrostek
    4TH: Timothy Ford
    VAR: Carol Anne Chenard
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar
     
  2. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    For reference he'd been booked in 35'.

    He tried to manage his way out of this but I don't think it worked -game got pretty chippy after that.
     
  3. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Boiko’s VAR announcement of that DOGSO-red penalty kick was one of the most detailed and helpful explanations I’ve seen in the short history of these announcements.
     
  4. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Just an absolutely blown advantage in the first 5 minutes of LA-COL. CR calls a foul on a COL defender just above the box while another defender clears it right into the path of a streaking LA attacker who buries it into the net. But the goal has to be brought back and they don't convert the free kick.

    (They did score a couple of minutes later, so odds are it won't have an impact on the final score)
     
  5. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #5 JasonMa, Jul 17, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2024
    We had a PK at the end of the first half in LA-COL that was interesting. Foul (correctly) called on a LA defender for a shirt tug but a case could be made for GK interference at the same time but a different Colorado attacker. After a bit of a delay VAR didn't send it down. Then the ensuing PK was saved but a Colorado attacker finished the rebound. Slight case for encroachment by the goal-scorer but the LA defender on him was encroaching even more. In the end VAR once again didn't send it down.

    EDIT: Encroachment pic, the Rapids player (in blue) at the bottom scored the rebound
    [​IMG]
     
    superdave repped this.
  6. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I *think* I remember that PRO's interpretation of the definition of "restart position" in the Laws' glossary is that there's no encroachment until the player's foot (or other part of their body) touches the ground inside the penalty area. I *think* Bassett's foot is still off the ground at the kick point, but I don't know that either angle given on the broadcast was definitive either way. One is a blur, the other is occluded.
     
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  7. SccrDon

    SccrDon Member+

    Dec 4, 2001
    Colorado Springs
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So if both Bassett and the LA player encroached and Bassett scored on the rebound, what's the call? No goal because the attacker was in early? Or goal stands, because defender can't benefit from going in early? Not saying that's what happened just wondering.
     
  8. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    What is the interpretation of the player’s position if *both* feet are off the ground at the same time?
     
  9. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Alvas Powell got two yellows in the span of 10 seconds tonight:

    https://x.com/ufcolin/status/1813747564614975610?s=46&t=u42s9Lc5er0_5mXDpYFHBw

    The yellow card for the first push seems like the expected call, but that sort of play is something where I’d like to see the expectation shift towards a red card. Pushing someone, from behind, headfirst into the boards from 2 yards away endangers the safety of the opponent, bottom line.

    You could also argue that the second yellow could/should have been straight red, too.
     
    superdave repped this.
  10. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Retake.
     
    SccrDon repped this.
  11. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    4:07 in the video
    https://youtu.be/8YoDMUmfrGg?si=Ruw0j9821A7W3C5u


    Was a good explanation from a non native English speaker too. But to be honest DOGSO in the penalty area doesn’t really require much detail to include. When these explanations really would help is when considerations for DOGSO outside the box or SFP need to be applied either in upgrades or downgrades. Talking about point and mode of contact, excessive force, the 4 Ds
     
    StarTime repped this.
  12. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Hopefully we get more in the future!
     
  13. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Forgot to mention he was substituted off ~5 minutes later.

    Definitely much less pleasant in the second half
     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Devil's advocate... the Cincy player sees that challenge coming and turns his entire body to ensure he gets hit in pretty much the worse way possible. Like, he saw the tackle already coming and realized the defender was reaching to a place he couldn't get to, so put his body in between. It's not the action of an attacker who is trying to play throught that challenge and advance. He wants to get fouled. Because he knows it's likely a 2CT.

    With all that said, it's still a dumb tackle and it's a smart play by the attacker to ensure the contact. It's definitely a much easier sell for the referee to just give the card. Very few people would complain, obviously.

    But if we're answering the "I am at a loss for a justification..." framing from Wiebe, I think the obvious answer is that the referee saw a careless challenge that the victim made sure turned into a reckless one and opted not to reward that behavior because he didn't want to give what he felt was a "cheap" 2CT.

    Now, you can disagree with that assessment and/or just say the 2CT is easier regardless, but I don't think it takes too much imagination to figure out what Dujic was doing.
     
  15. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with you that "I'm at a loss for justification..." framing implies this was an egregious mistake with only one possible correct decision. I watched it in real time and saw him talking to the Chicago player like "how can you possibly be that stupid?"; it was clear he was trying to keep him on the field if possible.

    However, I don't think this would have been a "cheap" 2CT. In the first half Chicago was repeatedly fouling in the midfield to interrupt play and prevent any promising attacks from developing. Five minutes earlier the same player had been booked for a similar foul in the same spot and he still made that challenge.

    Second half cincy really lost their composure - I'm sure there were a lot of factors going into this but I think the persistent fouling in midfield had to play a role
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I'm not defending the call nor calling it "cheap" myself, necessarily. Didn't see the match so totally defer to you on this.

    I'm just saying that if Dujic thinks the Cincinnati player has baited the Chicago player or--worse--has taken an affirmative action that makes a careless tackle look way worse than it otherwise would be, he might view it as cheap, particularly if it was an intense match and he was looking for a clear-cut 2CT.

    But again, visually it looks like a clear cut 2CT. So you can easily argue that Dujic was over-thinking it even if I do have his perspective correctly analyzed.
     
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  17. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Usually I’m all for reckless yellows and don’t like to do the “yes but” game to talk out of clear yellows, but that was an extremely strange movement the attacker made. He sort of jumped backwards flat footed when the ball was going forward.

    But to me the second yellow there is much more easily justifiable than not giving one. If that happened in a game I did it’s yellow all the way because I wouldn’t have the foresight to think about the attackers movement without seeing a replay
     
  18. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sp...t-agree-with-mls-suspension-fine/74666696007/

    Nothing particularly surprising in here but I did think this was noteworthy:

    "I think that shows that, at times, the officials are protected more than players and coaches."

    I don't know enough to say if this is true one way or the other but I think an argument can be made that officials should be more protected than players and coaches.


    Again, I don't know if they are or should be but I don't think it's trolling to suggest that they should be. I think you can make good faith arguments that the two most important things are physical safety of the players and the integrity of the competition; as referees are the face of competition integrity they should be protected on principle. Of course, adapting that argument leads to a lot of other downstream consequences but I still think it's a genuine argument.

    Maybe this is too philosophical for this thread but I just thought it was interesting
     
  19. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    Until officials make what players and coaches do, they should be a protected class.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well the minimum MLS player salary is well below the maximum income level for referees.
     
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