2024 MLS Match Day 25 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by ManiacalClown, Jul 6, 2024.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For what it's worth, two yellows would have been a 2CT for SKC.

    I had thought about that route if PRO, for whatever reason, doesn't like red here. But it would not have solved the balance issue.

    Regardless, I think this is very straightforward. A strike to the face from close range and then an unambiguously violent barge in retaliation. This shouldn't be difficult. The only thing that throws a wrinkle into any of this is the idea that the player was engaging in an otherwise legal throw-in. But it's also clear that that is not what he was actually doing.
     
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  2. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    2:07

    I've always wondered how this was assessed.
     
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  3. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    She's backpedaling as the SKC player starts blocking the thrower like he's defending an inbound pass in the NBA. Probably not the best management approach.

    Also, we should recognize there's a difference between simulation that creates the impression of a foul where there is none versus simulation that exaggerates the severity or location of a foul to draw the referees attention to it. As much as I don't like the hands to the face after being hit in the chest or the smirk while getting up, there's a real difference between this and a flop when he's not touched.


    EDIT: Last, if anyone thinks this is simply a legal throw-in and not striking/attempting to strike an opponent, I don't know what to say.
     
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  4. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Had no idea that the Sporting Player was on a yellow.

    Then yeah there is no wiggle room. Straight reds to both or somehow try to "manage" the situation with no yellows.

    But I don't think Howard Webb in his prime could pull that off.

    Maybe you could. Mateu Lahoz did I think somehow only come away with one caution for this incident at 4:10 mark in the 2022 World Cup. Still blown away that Van Dijk didn't caution for that body check.

     
  5. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I recall, from somewhere, pretty clear guidance that it was permissible to throw the ball at an opponent on a TI if done safely, but doing so could be C, R, or EF. It doesn’t appear to be on the current guidelines, and I can’t think where it was. Was that the old ATR?

    While I agree with the idea that two straight reds is the best answer, the thrower wasn’t the initial instigator—the instigation that started it was the opponent t deliberately trying to block the TI. If he hadn’t reacted to being hit by the ball violently, I think there could be a very credible case for tow cautions, as the ball wasn’t thrown hard—the thrower wasn’t trying to hurt him, just trying to get him cautioned for blocking the throw.
     
  6. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    I really hate the fact that an opponent can do a SFP or VC offense, and the offended player reacts angrily in a way that isn’t overly violent like punching/kicking (like here, a hard chest bump) and he gets the same punishment for it. This isn’t like Van Dijk in the World Cup who wasn’t the one fouled or had the ball kicked at him on the bench yet ran 10 yards to violently chest bump the player to the ground.

    This should have been two yellows for SKC, DR and then UB. VC RC for Dallas player. So this guy gets a ball violently thrown at his skull, reacts by harshly chest bumping the guy who did it, and he gets a more severe punishment than the thrower got. PLUS he gets a two match VC ban and likely a fine as well. Unbelievable.
     
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  7. Sharper

    Sharper Member

    Charlotte FC
    United States
    Aug 23, 2022
    I think if at the time the opponent begins getting in the face of the thrower, the referee immediately gives a loud whistle to pause the throw-in, and cautions the unsporting behavior of the opponent, the rest is avoided.

    Failing to give warranted cautions can lead to future red cards.

    It's like the old saying about the police.... the police aren't there to protect people from criminals, they're there to protect criminals from the people who would otherwise take justice into their own hands if they weren't arrested.
     
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  8. ArgylleRef

    ArgylleRef Member

    Jan 23, 2004
    Lansing, KS
    Bassong earned a Yellow Card in the 86th minute. There's been some reporting that what he got in the 94th WAS as second yellow, and not a straight red, which would have been equal outcomes in reference to the single incident. The SKC/MLS website shows straight Red, but they are notoriously bad. I was there and Simon actually tried to jump into the melee, initially. She was walking away from the corner when she showed the Red to Bassong. I never saw the yellow to Arriola.
     
  9. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Wait, just so I'm clear, do you think the player throwing the ball in was worse than the guy blocking the throw-in?
     
  10. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think a couple of y'all have a bit higher threshold for excessive force than maybe expected?

    There's no way what Bassong did isn't red just because he neglected to use his hands to violently knock an opponent to the ground.
    Similarly, Arriola didn't just take a normal throw in. He made sure to line up the opponent and bean him in the head with a rather forceful throw. He's not just trying to draw a YC with that move. He doesn't have to literally hurl the ball at the opponent's face to do that.
     
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  11. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On the red card in KC, a lot has been said about equal outcomes, but this comes down to old fashioned player management and preventative refereeing. Once a player (esp. with a yellow) is jumping up and down in front of a throw in, the referee has to deal with it immediately. A sharp whistle and visible "cut it out" warning... if not, you risk one of two things: A. What you saw here, with a throw to the head or some other act against the instigator, or B. a second caution for interfering with the throw. The best case scenario would be a clean 2ct that would be obvious, but more likely is he just kind of interferes with the throw, and puts the ref in an impossible situation. This could have all been avoided by proactive refereeing. So, while I get that some in the league might have preferred "equal outcomes," the reality is that more on it refereeing could have helped.
     
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  12. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    For me in a vacuum bassong is definitely violent conduct (the same way Van Dijk’s shoulder charge in the WC was violent conduct). But strictly because he was the person violent conduct was committed against with the ball being thrown into his head, I think his action in particular shouldn’t be violent conduct. If he runs up to him and punches him in the face of course that’s violent conduct regardless. But I think a little bit of leeway should be given in a heated reaction to having violence committed against you.

    The referee seems to have tried to manage it pretty quickly, you can hear the double whistle tweet as the ball is being thrown into the defenders head. And he was only jumping up and down in front of the thrower for maybe 1-2 seconds before the ball was thrown.
     
  13. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Nope nope nope nope.
    Stop justifying VC.
    Stop dismissing the international douchebaggery of jumping in front of the throw.

    I strongly urge you to watch this again.
    The ball hits the forehead, not the face but is still violent conduct.
    But the defender used his shoulder to hit the chin of the thrower.
    Equal force as a punch and is probably more dangerous as it is hidden and thus unexpected.

    Both need and VC and both need to go.
     
  14. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    #39 StarTime, Jul 8, 2024
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2024
    I’ll throw my hat into the ring for “no VC by Bassong”.

    I don’t see the contact to the chin you’re talking about. It’s purely chest-to-chest. That mechanism fundamentally highly unlikely to generate a large amount of force, especially when Bassong is coming from only two steps away (this wasn’t a Virgil van Dyke body check from a ten yard sprint vs Argentina).

    I mean seriously, we see two-handed pushes to the chest all the time that are more forceful than that chest bump, and everyone accepts a yellow card for it. Heck, even headbutts are being justified as yellow cards in some competitions! But now we change the mode of contact from a push with the arms to a mode (chest bump) for which it is way more difficult to generate a lot of force, and everyone wants a Violent Conduct here? I don’t get it.

    The ball throw to the head is, of course, Violent Conduct. And Bassong is gone anyways for two yellows however you slice it.
     
  15. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In general, yeah, it seems slightly (really, just slightly) unfair to punish both the same, but there is always an instigator in an altercation and the other player needs to be able to handle his actions instead of attacking back. That's not as common if we're talking about teenagers, but we have professional adults here. There is no forgiveness for this. Be smart and help your team instead of being macho and going purely on uncontrollable reaction.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think you're way in the weeds here. That's not "violent" or "brutal?"

    I don't think the regime change around "light headbutts," which we seem to universally decry here, should be used to justify a premediated and violent chest bump.

    I'm glad you arrive at this conclusion, obviously, but to your "of course" stipulation we have people arguing above either that it's a normal throw-in or that the force of the throw isn't that strong and therefore unsporting, rather than violent. So just as you can find an argument for yellow on Bassong, people somehow find an argument for yellow on Arriola. Like Simon did.

    I think it's far better if we just return to a land where we assessed violent conduct simply on the merits of the behavior. Sure, there will always be borderline cases. But by and large if you strike someone in the head (with anything more than non-negligible force) you should see red. And if you retaliate in any way at a stoppage that is obviously violent or brutal in nature, you should see red. So that means very hard and violent chest bumps like this but, yes, sure, it also means very hard and violent two-handed pushes. Discerning between the truly violent and less than violent ones will be what elite referees get paid big bucks for. But given the totality of events here, including the time, location on field, and context of play, I don't see any reason to look for mitigation to get Bassong down to a yellow card.
     
  17. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    The video is better, but this is the point. Shoulder hit and the angle of the head quickly changes.

    Screenshot 2024-07-09 at 10.36.43 AM.png Screenshot 2024-07-09 at 10.37.08 AM.png
     
  18. superdave

    superdave BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That’s how the game is reffed, but me, I’m glad Arriola did it, and I wish he had gotten nothing. As a fan, the tolerance of cheating in our sport is mind boggling. The standard is to allow lots of cheating but not “too much.” “Too much” is obviously extremely subjective. And that subjectivity IMO is how “favorites” (whether a player or a team) get to play in an uneven playing field; what’s “too much” for the unfavored team or player is A OK for the big team or star player. I don’t like it.

    Basically the ref was never going to enforce the rule there so Arriola did it himself. The ref should have given Arriola a gratuity for helping him do his job.
     
  19. superdave

    superdave BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exaggerating contact wouldn’t be an issue if not for how refs actually call games. You have to do it to get a call.

    To be clear I’m not blaming referees here. I’m blaming the entire management structure of the sport for being so casual about rules.
     
  20. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Bill, I understand and acknowledged that in a vacuum it is a violent act, he deserves a red card and I would give the same in my match. I was talking more about what I WISH we could do in this situation. I hate the fact that a player can commit a violent conduct or serious foul play offense and when the fouled player reacts in the manner you would expect from being violently treated (short of violent punching/kicking retaliation), now he is forced to be straight red carded as well.

    Look at the USA-Panama match where Pulisic was VC chopped down from behind, then got up and ran at the fouler and roughly shoulder checked his chest sending him to the ground. That should be an expected response and a YC, but of course Barton have nothing because it was copa America.


    I know I know. It just stinks it has to be this way


    Nah, you shouldn’t be advocating that violent action should be allowed to take the law into your own hands.
     
  21. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    But it is circular. The Kansas player was being a complete douche. The RSL Player was just responding to that. What he did was VC but not he did it in a manner that it wouldn't hurt his opponent. He was seeking a card, not an injury.

    Do you see how that is the same thing and it was started by the Kansas player being an ass?
    If anyone deserves punishment, it is he. The other two incidences were reactions, his was thought out.
     
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  22. Twotone Jones

    Twotone Jones Member

    United States
    Apr 12, 2023
    If only we could give YC for being a douche. Someone please add that to the LOTG.
     
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  23. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ronaldo could never have even stepped on the pitch with such a law.
     
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  24. Soccer Dad & Ref

    Oct 19, 2017
    San Diego
    Need to take some lessons from Rugby. This kind of crud isn't even considered from what I have heard of. Not sure how it became that way.

    Start giving out massive fines the week after the game if it is found to be a farce.
     

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