2024-25 England Referee Thread [EPL/EFL/Cups+][Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jul 25, 2024.

  1. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    It's not a great view on my phone, but it appears that the hold happens or at least starts before the tackle is made. In other words not a hip-to-hip tackle that involves a careless and simultaneous charge.

    If (?) that's what is happening here, then it's yellow with a subsequent tackle and red without? Wrapping my head around misconduct contingent on (in-)action post-offense. Probably missing something, it's early in the coffee pot.
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes.

    In the instruction in MLS is pretty simple. Any attempt to play the ball trumps the nature of the foul. I don't like it. In this case, the player can only make an attempt on the ball because of the blatant hold. I also thinks this instruction runs counter to the Law text, which flat out says certain fouls mean red by their nature. But that's not where we are. The powers that be want to reduce red+pen outcomes. This is part of it.
     
  3. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    Thanks.

    Yeah I don't like it either. Glad that for now, on Planet Grade 8 we keep things simpler.
     
  4. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Amazing how in England, which is unusually under punishing everything, has this incident which is over punishing what everyone else does. And it’s absolutely correct to give it a red card, but of course, not what the professional leagues want to keep players on the field. Blatant cheating that they are no longer correctly punishing.
     
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  5. Barciur

    Barciur Member+

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    Don't have video yet, but a rejected OFR alert.

     
  6. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Forest and Leicester 87th minute...Forest player is at least a full yard offside. No immediate flag from the AR...as result both the attacker and defender eventually crash into the post, luckily no serious injury. And yes, eventually the AR did indeed raise the flag...sigh
     
  7. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Then where are they pulling it from? Not the laws of the game…

    In 2023, the LOTG changed to include “attempt to challenge for” alongside the “attempt to play the ball” language in this part of law 12. In those Law Change notes, it specifically mentions that holding, pushing, and pulling, are excluded. And regardless, we didn’t see this sudden shift in interpretation until 2025. So if that’s how they interpret the new-ish language in the law anyways (despite what the text of the law actually says), why wasn’t it interpreted that way last year?
     
  8. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  9. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    How in Seven Hells could the conversation between him and the physio result in a thumbs-up to the bench?!?
     
  10. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    as I said when seen live, the collision just looked really terrible...and I was screaming at the TV screen to raise the flag as you could see this collision with the goalpost was going to happen.
     
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  11. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    Million percent. Live shot was horrifying, and the still you posted only multiples it.
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The live feed showed him up and walking rather quickly. Not defending the decision (which was obviously wrong), but it wasn't like he conveyed the thumbs up while simultaneously rolling in agony. He was walking back up the touch with the medical staff.

    On the refereeing front, though... yeah, this is so bad. I think it's silly to place the blame for the injury on the AR. And also silly only to complain about this instruction when it results in an injury. But it does unnecessarily increase the possibility. It's also a waste of everyone's time and energy. And, in this case, I would strongly argue it's not even the correct application. The attacker is two yards offside. This is just bad officiating.
     
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  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All very good questions.
     
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  14. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I'm sorry, but that's close enough where you have to delay the flag.

    In fact under the potential new offside law change, that's onside.

    There is no well trained AR in the world that is putting the flag up there.

    People wanted instant replay and that is, unfortunately, the price to pay until we get truly automated offside that immediately buzzes the referee that it is offside.
     
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  15. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    Yes I remember thinking "oh good, he's up" but holy cow, that kind of "oof" image with what we now know is major intestinal injury. Hindsight is always 20/20 but it's difficult to reconcile a quick physio signal with what we know happened. I know this thought is an unholy marriage of two points in time.
     
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  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just fundamentally disagree. That snapshot is probably a tenth of a second or so too early, too. This was obviously offside. There is no new change, so that's irrelevant. I really don't think this should be defended. She's almost three yards out of position, which is probably why her confidence level wasn't as high as it needed to be here.
     
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  17. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    yeah, I am not willing the sacrifice the potential life of a player over a VERY clearly offside scenario. This attack had danger written all over it, and that flag needed to be raised well before it did.
     
  18. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    You know better than me, but is there an MLS AR that is putting their flag up there and killing the play? Are you confident they are immediately killing the play here?

    I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I think this is on the line of where you have to keep the flag down.
     
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  19. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    I’m with you on this. Particularly considering the AR is quite significantly out of position. But even if she wasn’t, given the with the defender stepping up while the ball is being played, any professional AR is going to keep the flag down here. Obviously the freeze frame looks well off, but if the ball had been played half a second earlier than the AR thought, it would’ve been onside.

    This framing is tremendously hyperbolic. A breakaway on a soccer pitch is not a situation where a player’s life is in danger, or even one that “has danger written all over it” at all. These plays happen every game, and if you think they’re too dangerous to exist, then you’ll need to pick a different sport. There was nothing particularly notable about this play that indicated an increased chance of injury until the very end of it.

    Acknowledging that the instruction to delay the flag does, in all fairness, marginally increase the chance of injuries occurring in a match, these situations are still quite rare, and until that instruction changes, the AR did what she was supposed to do here.
     
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  20. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    agree to disagree...this was not a marginal decision...it was very clearly offside.
     
  21. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Yes it was very clearly offside, but I can count on one hand the number of times in the VAR era I’ve seen the flag go up during a 1-on-1 breakaway, including cases where it was this obvious or more. It just doesn’t happen.

    I’d be on board with adjusting the threshold such that ARs feel a little less risk-averse about raising their flag during an attack, but I doubt that’s happening anytime soon. We’re talking about a fantasy at the moment.
     
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  22. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    This will all be moot in some number of years when ARs are eliminated in many of the top professional leagues and SAOT becomes the new offside with an instantaneous buzz to the referee’s watch like GLT. Maybe the sport will just go to a dual referee system for calling fouls all over the field
     
  23. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Should be DOGSO in the FA Cup final.
     
  24. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wow. Gillette rules that the direction wasn't there for DOGSO.

    PalaceFACup.png
     
  25. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    Greater Pittsburgh
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

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