2024-25 England Referee Thread [EPL/EFL/Cups+][Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Jul 25, 2024.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    2024 Community Shield
    Manchester United : Manchester City - BROOKS

    Probably worth nothing that Brooks was promoted by UEFA to Category 1 this summer while Pawson was actually demoted to Category 2. There's usually no coming back from that, so if you have questions about how is being groomed to follow Oliver, I think we now have our answer. Our at least our newest answer.
     
    Mikael_Referee repped this.
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  3. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    https://x.com/PLMatchCentre



    I'm not expecting much from it but it's something.
     
  4. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
  5. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Premier League hopes 'referee's call' can help fix VAR - ESPN

    The six-point plan aims to achieve:
    - Improve clarity of threshold for VAR intervention: "referee's call"
    - Reduce delays to the game: introducing semi-automated offside
    - Improve the fan experience: pilot referees announcing decisions, increase messaging, lobby the IFAB for use of live VAR audio/video
    - Improve VAR training and consistency: emphasis on speed of process while preserving accuracy
    - Improve transparency: More proactive strategy, aligned with "referee's call"
    - Education and communications plan: Key messaging across clubs and media

    More than 100 errors were corrected last season
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    "Point of contact," which is an extraordinarily important distinction. This isn't just about whether or not a ball is out of play or a foul was in/out of the penalty area. It's about where a ball hits an arm/hand and where/how a tackle makes contact.

    It might not the revolutionary change it is being advertised as. Also, I'm not exactly sure how this gets enforced. At the monitor, the referee controls the process. He would regularly say, for example "okay, show me at 50%" or "slow it down to 25% and loop it." If the referee gives that instruction, is the VAR supposed to say "nope, sorry, can't do it, mate?" Or is the referee instructed not to ask for information that he otherwise knows he might have access to? I don't get how this is going to actually work.

    A blanket "hey, as a reminder you're not supposed to use slo-mo" as a crutch, which is literally IN the original VAR protocols, is great. Announcing to the world that all OFRs will be in real speed except for a certain exception that might actually be way more often than a layman thinks it should be has the potential to just add to confusion.
     
  7. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Speaking as a fan, I think that a great deal of the dissatisfaction with the VAR process is the fact that the referee does not appear to control the process.

    This starts with the fact that reviews are initiated by the "invisible" VAR (as opposed to the CR requesting help), as well as the fact that once called to the monitor, the CR almost always accepts the VAR's recommendation to overturn the original call.

    So the appearance to fans is that the VAR is controlling the process, not the CR.

    I think fans would be a lot more satisfied with the process if the VAR could not independently initiate reviews, but instead was simply available to review difficult plays at the request of the CR (i.e. "this is what I saw, can you confirm?")
     
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And if this was the system, fans would (probably justifiably, to be quite honest) complain that referees would not want to consult VAR for certain plays because their egos were too big or whatnot.

    I mean, I don't want to have the same exact discussions that we've been having for 8 years now. But whole point of VAR was to fix mistakes where the referee got it wrong. And referees get things wrong when they are 100% convinced they are right. Witness the men's Olympic gold medal match--Abatti was sure and adamant there was no penalty and no holding offence. There's no way in a million years he would have voluntarily subjected himself to a VAR consultation at that juncture of the match given his perspective and what was on the line.

    Referees are trained to make calls and to sell them. They are supposed to believe in the correctness of their call. Introducing a system that fundamentally relies on a referee being able to immediately introduce self-doubt into their own decision on the biggest calls in the game and to act on that doubt appropriately is a recipe for disaster and for getting even worse and more erratic outcomes than you get now. You think dissent is bad now? Ha.

    The goalposts just keep constantly moving on all this. Simultaneously, week in and week out some fans think VAR does nothing while others say there's too much VAR involvement. And then people, like you, say they are "speaking as a fan" when there is quite clearly no monolithic perspective on this. I would hazard to guess that many fans believe the referee should not be in charge of the process. In fact, right now every(?) other sport has replays initiated either by an outside official, by coaches, or because of specific issues related to timing or the technical nature of the call itself. I can't think of a single sport that relies on the chief referee or official to initiate a review of his own volition at any point during the match on a subjective call. So the idea that this aspect of VAR is the problem with a large swathe of fandom seems to not hit the mark.
     
  9. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Amen.

    If @mwf13 wants that he can go look at what college soccer is going to implement this year in their disastrous version of Video Review.

    The referee and only the referee will be responsible for initiating a review for an penalty kick given or not given, red card for violent conduct, serious foul, or DOGSO given and not given and offside as well.

    It's basically going to rely on the referee "trusting his gut" that he got it wrong.

    It's going to be such a nightmare and no one in charge of college soccer seems to think it's going to be a problem even though you can see the flaws and loopholes a mile away.
     
  10. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    MLB has an option for a crew chief review. But other than that, expecting a referee to ask for assistance for his own call he just made is ridiculous
     
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  11. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The review system in MLB is fascinating. You can keep having plays reviewed until you lose a challenge, but certain things like whether a ball was in play or a home run seem always be crew chief reviews, whether or not it's requested by a team. And then of course starting in the 8th you can request a review even if you've already lost a challenge with the only real difference that the umpire doesn't *have* to grant the request, but has anyone seen one rejected? I haven't.
     
  12. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    And in the interests of finding a better way, what would your proposed solution be?
     
  13. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    For college soccer.
     
  14. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    https://www.thetimes.com/sport/foot...to-be-patient-with-referees-and-var-vdfd96xwg

    "
    An end to the forensic approach of VAR
    VAR will have a higher threshold for interventions, with the introduction of an “umpire’s call” style system in which the on-field call of the referee requires a clear error to be overturned, rather than a difference of interpretation of the laws of the game.

    This change is designed to eliminate instances of re-refereeing and minimise delays."​

    It's so funny. 90% of the VAR controversy is because the VAR didn't intervene so lets raise the bar even higher.
     
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seriously.
     
  16. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Have a VAR official, like everyone else, telling the referee they made a mistake and asking them to go to the monitor instead of the players and coaches basically saying you need to go to the monitor.

    That's how other college sports do it. There is someone in the replay center buzzing the referee down to change their decision in football and basketball.

    If you don't see the problems with asking a referee to doubt themselves essentially, then I don't know what to tell you.

    I can't believe no one in college soccer thinks this system is a bad idea.

    Last year, I saw Corey Rockwell give a penalty kick for handling in the SEC tournament. It was a great decision and an easy decision. The defender practically grabbed the ball.

    He still went over to the monitor for the sake of going to the monitor. It was completely unnecessary and a waste of time. In a VAR system, he wouldn't have had to do that.

    You're gonna get a bunch of those type of reviews this year because officials are gonna be terrified of the 1% chance they are wrong and they don't go to the monitor.
     
  17. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    I would love to have that kind of system. But the reality is slightly over half of the D1 conferences are willing to pay for a 4th official. There is no chance that they are going to be willing to pay for a VAR type official.
     
  18. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    No assignments out yet?

    First match is in less than four hours.....
     
  19. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  20. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    Well they're at least trying something different this year. I'll give them that.
     
  21. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    17th minute SPA. Well done Mr Jones.
     
  22. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    41st minute, Maguire booked for a dive. Absolutely never a penalty, but at live speed I wasn't sure if it was really a dive or just Maguire being really clumsy (let's be honest - with him, either is completely possible). I don't really mind the caution there, but wonder if that bar for diving will always be set at that level for the season.
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    With Maguire screaming out and four teammates simultaneously doing "big arms" asking for the penalty, I think Jones has to make a decision there. It's either a penalty or it is simulation.

    If Maguire just gets up and no teammates appeal, maybe Jones can just play on. But with the overall context there, I don't think he can.
     
    RefIADad repped this.
  24. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #24 RefIADad, Aug 16, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2024
    Probably the kiss of death here as I type this before the end of the game, but I think Rob Jones has had a strong opener today. Has had good foul and advantage recognition. Good fitness as well, as he's been moving well late in a game that has had more than its share of stretched moments.

    EDIT - Game's over now. I'm happy I didn't jinx him!
     
  25. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He's in the spot of being the high performing ref on his way up but not yet at the Oliver and Taylor level of recognition and hate from fans.

    Well, yet at least.
     

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