For comparative purposes, here's Palmeiras head coach Abel Ferreira during a Palmeiras-Flamengo match earlier this year (from 3:16 in the video). Wilton Sampaio went yellow, Ferreira still complained.
That's shocking. That should be red for two reasons, delaying an opponent's restart, and physical behavior towards an opposing player. Yet somehow I'm not surprised. These coaches offenses in Law 12 seems to be another area of the LOTG where referee authorities the world over went "that's nice that you want that, IFAB" and then completely ignored them.
He forced Sampaio's hand later in the match (see the next scene from 3:57), earning himself a straight red. Apologies for the Brazilian Super Cup distraction.
@gaolin spotted this and commented in the MLS referee forum, so I wanted to give him credit first. PRO recently updated its website and there now exists a roster for PRO2 referees, most of whom have professional headshots uploaded. Quick details at a glance: 34 Center Referees 44 Assistant Referees PRO2 Female Referees (11): Alexandra Billeter Karen Callado Danielle Chesky Katja Koroleva Samantha Martinez Adorae Monroy Alyssa Nichols Rebecca Pagan Laura Rodriguez Natalie Simon Anya Voigt PRO2 Male Referees (23): Elijio Arreguin Nabil Bensalah Kevin Broadley Matthew Corrigan Alexis Da Silva Sergii Demianchuk Greg Dopka Joshua Encarnacion Ricardo Fierro Gerald Flores Elton Garcia JC Griggs Luis Guardia Brad Jensen Adam Kilpatrick Abdou Ndiaye Elvis Osmanovic Calin Radosav Jeremy Scheer Thomas Snyder Brandon Stevis Eric Tattersall Matt Thompson PRO2 Female ARs (10): Melissa Beck Jennifer Garner Melissa Gonzalez Alicia Messer Salma Perez Maggie Short Rachel Smith Kaili Terry Tiffini Turpin Katarzyna Wasiak PRO2 Male ARs (34): Art Arustamyan Nicholas Balcer Darren Bandy Seth Barton Ethan Buege Chris Canales Zeno Cho Christian Clerc Jordan Davis Tom Felice Rhett Hammil Austin Holt Baboucarr Jallow Noah Kenyawani John Krill Brian Marshall Seth Martin Stephen McGonagle Zach McWhorter Mike Nickerson Ricardo Ocampo Ben Rigel Matthew Rodman Bennett Savage Chris Schurfranz Matthew Schwartz Matthew Seem Nicholas Seymour Amilcar Sicaju Cameron Siler Jeffrey Skinker Jeremy Smith Joe Suchoski Matt Trotter There's also a "graduates" section under the PRO2 tab, which shows which referees have been promoted from PRO2 into PRO since 2018: https://proreferees.com/pro2/pro2-graduates/ This info could be potentially useful for the posters and lurkers who have aspirations on reaching the semipro and professional levels of soccer here in the US. You may recognize the name of someone in your area, or whom you've worked with before, who you can reach out to for advice/mentoring.
NWSL Inside Video Review: Wrong review for handball at the end of Washington Spirit vs Portland Thorns leads to the referee changing his decision to award a penalty kick. The referee Jeremy Scheer was absolutely correct in what he saw in real time: the defender had deliberately player the ball with her foot, which then bounced into her arm. PRO said that the review sent down by VAR Robi Hullner was wrong for this reason. And in the audio, we can hear Scheer express many doubts about it. He seems to have everything right and seemed poised to reject the review. The Inside Video Review video, however, did not show us the outcome of the review. It turns out that Scheer eventually changed his decision and awarded a penalty kick! 91st minute equalizer. Yikes. He had it right the whole time, he shouldn’t have changed his mind.
I think that’s a bit insightful on the dynamics and human interaction. The standard is C&O for both the VAR and the R. Hen a VAR sends something down, the VAR is saying , “with all the extra angles and extra time and slo-mo, I was able to see something you weren’t.” So, while the VAR is saying the R missed something, the context is that there was a reason the VAR was able to see something the R couldn’t, and now the R gets to see it too. But when an R keeps a call, the personal dynamic is different. Since they are using the same standard, the R is saying, “I know you looked at this more times than I did, but you’re wrong and I’m right.” It’s not surprising that the dynamic leads Rs to accept changes that they should have rejected.
True, but this is abnormal in that it’s pretty explicit in their conversation that the VAR is seeing the exact same thing that the referee described seeing in real time. They don’t disagree at all on what they see, just essentially on what the correct interpretation of the Law is. It reminds me of that DOGSO clip from an NWSL game referees by Greg Dopka a few months ago, except in that case the VAR was exactly right: Dopka’s interpretation that a lone field player (and no goalkeeper) was sufficient to negate DOGSO was incorrect. This sort of book-knowledge really should be stuff that everybody working as a referee or VAR on a PRO2 game should consistently know…
The exchange between the Referee and VAR is great. The answer by Barkey is a great conclusion. With the Referee grades being revamped about 5 years ago and the recertification now a joke, I'm finding that Inside Video Review is the biggest training tool we have remaining. On the first 2 plays on the video, Broadley has a horrific game with two bad misses with DOGSO and a clear PK.
Minute 2 of the video, minute 33 of the game. Straight red for a DOGSO 50 yards from goal? What do you think? What happened to 4D?
Sorry if I am missing something obvious here ... where in Law 12 is the wording about deliberately playing the ball first before contact with the arm negates handling? The Definitive Angle write up says "playing the ball to your own hand is an exception under handball considerations" ... I'm sure they are correct, just can't find the language on IFAB. Thanks.
It was in the LOTG for a year or two starting in 2019 along with other very specific considerations for handball. This was a time in which the IFAB was trying to define handballs as objectively as possible. Then a few years later (I think 2021), they removed all that wording and replaced it with a catch-all about “unnaturally bigger,” phrasing that seemingly allows for more subjectivity. The instruction was that all the specific considerations from the 2019 Laws still mostly/entirely apply when deciding what constitutes “unnaturally bigger,” the IFAB just didn’t want to explicitly put them in the Laws for some reason. I encourage you to look into Law 12 of the 2019-20 or 2020-21 LOTG for more information. The language may be gone from the Laws now, but as you can see, its specter still ligers.
This is interesting to me because I have been confused about this as well. Believe me I know well and good that this was in the LOTG for 2-3 years at the end of the 2010s/start of the 2020s, and I would immediately call out exactly why I wasn't calling a handball ("kicked off themselves", "silhouette", etc.), but once these stipulations disappeared, I actually didn't know that this "kicking it into your own hand" still applied. But if something like this Inside Video Review clip isn't considered handball where her arm is basically above her head and sticking out, and she kicks the ball into it, then I guess that literally nothing can be considered a handball if you kick the ball into your own arm.
The IFAB had a document they put out complete with video examples for the 2021/2022 Law changes, which included the rewrite of handball offenses in Law 12 in its current form. Videos don't work, but you'll find what you're looking for if you scroll far enough. https://www.theifab.com/downloads/p...tions-to-the-laws-2021-22-incl-videos-up?l=en Also worth noting that these plays are specifically covered on the IFAB's highly simplified rules site in the "What Happens If..." section https://footballrules.com/offences-sanctions/handball
Thank you. I remember this being explicitly part of the language a few years ago, didn't realize it was still a thing.
Distance to goal is relative, not absolute. There are 4 considerations, to be evaluated together. I mean, really, do you not think this is an obvious goal scoring opportunity? She’s past the defense, the GK is out of goal and back pedaling. This might not be an OGSO in a 12U game, but I don’t think there are many refs who would not see this as an OGSO in a professional game.
The referee crew was announced for the NWSL Challenge Cup Final. Kicks off at 12:30PM ET tomorrow September 9: North Carolina Courage vs Racing Louisville REF: Alexandra Billeter AR1: Tiffini Turpin AR2: Seth Barton 4TH: Brad Jensen VAR: Carol Anne Chenard AVAR: Kaili Terry RAR: Matthew Rodman https://proreferees.com/2023/09/08/2023-nwsl-challenge-cup-final-crew-confirmed/
Why does NWSL not have all female crews? Are there not enough female referees at that level in America?
https://proreferees.com/roster/pro2-referees/ https://proreferees.com/roster/pro2-assistant-referees/
In light of some of your other posts on this forum.....what's the purpose behind your question? NWSL is a professional league that is using VAR for the first time this season. They assign referees to work their games from PRO2 and USSF national officials. Some of whom are female. Some of whom are male. Regardless of gender, there are some referees who have performed better than others in NWSL matches (which includes VAR communication). Shouldn't we assume that these officials are receiving the assignment based on strong performances?
This person referees in the USA but makes a point to not watch MLS, so I can only imagine that they have even less time for NWSL and other US domestic competition... they don't know what they don't know. (Maybe they do know... but in that case, this comment is just trolling.)
Yes I don't know how refereeing at the USSF levels work but I think it's nice to see female referees being used in women's matches so it would be nice to see NWSL female crews like there were in the world cup if there was a big enough pool. Something I am curious about though is if the NWSL players/coaches/etc. actually care if their referees are men or women, or if they just want the most qualified ones doing them. Because seeing the range of experience and skill levels in the WWC from all the different confederations made it seem like they just wanted female referees rather than really having the most qualified ones.
One question I have regarding this, for those more in-the-know than I, why do NWSL referee appointments skew more female than other PRO2 games? Is it because the referees involved are specifying that they want to work women’s games in particular? Or are female refs being put into those roles more often than men’s games (either due to being more proficient in the women’s game or due to, as soccerref posited, a preference for referees of that league to be female)? Curious how it works behind the scenes.
As someone who watches a lot of NWSL and is very familiar with the players, I would guess they want the more qualified referee and care less if it's a male or female. Not that they'd be opposed to all-female crews, and I could be wrong, but I've always had the impression that the pool of qualified female referees is not large enough for all the NWSL games. I know less about how the games are actually assigned behind the scenes, but I do think the NWSL being the highest level for women's soccer in the country naturally contributes to seeing more female referees on their games. However, assigning referees at the WWC is a different kettle of fish from day-to-day pro soccer.
There are gendered fitness tests which are one factor. If a person passes the FIFA women's referee they can referee women's matches, so this may be an element. Women who pass the men's test can referee me, of course.