2023-24 England Referee Thread [EPL/EFL/Cups+][Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by code1390, Jul 28, 2023.

  1. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    He wasn’t VARing for Luton. He was VARing Everton v Forest, which has implications for Luton in the relegation race.
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Ah. Thank you for stopping me before I embarrassed myself more!

    So, more or less everything I posted above can be disregarded. It's still very poor assigning from PGMOL. And I think the one piece I stand by fully is that Attwell could/should have said "no." But aside from that, if it's not unprecedented and not violating any clearly written or agreed upon policies, it's not as bad as I thought. Still pretty bad, though. Just not "so catastrophic that you have to see the club's argument" bad.
     
  3. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    It's well-known that Michael Oliver is a Newcastle supporter, and therefore he does not get assigned any Newcastle matches. But I remember it being mentioned somewhere that he also doesn't get assigned any late-season matches involving teams that Newcastle is directly competing with (Man United, West Ham, and possibly Spurs this year).

    Does anybody know if the PGMOL has any formal policy about refs being assigned to matches involving teams competing with the club they support (as was the case with Atwell), and/or when the "late-season" is considered to have started? Because Luton has been in a relegation battle the entire season, and I'm sure Atwell has been assigned to other matches throughout the season involving clubs that Luton is competing against to avoid relegation.
     
  4. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #1829 code1390, Apr 21, 2024
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2024
    I think there's just a "you know it when you see it line" and when there's four matches left to play and a Forest loss keeps Luton within one point of safety, it goes past that line. When the same situation arises with a dozen matches left it feels a bit different.

    Another way to put it is that you know it was a massive match because Anthony Taylor was reffing it.
     
    mfw13, Thegreatwar, SouthRef and 2 others repped this.
  5. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    AremRed and StarTime repped this.
  6. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    There is something to be said about rethinking an assignment if a team has a reasonable request to do so, especially at this level.
     
    StarTime repped this.
  7. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't I vaguely remember him costing his ARs a World Cup by jetting off to Saudi Arabia for the payday?
     
  8. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One questions if he ever had them.
     
    Thegreatwar and RedStar91 repped this.
  10. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    All true.

    But look at the flipside.....the day started with Everton on 27 points, Forest on 26 points, and Luton on 25 points. So it's not like an Everton win was a great result for Luton either. In fact, the best result for Luton probably would have been a draw.

    So while Forest may be pissed because Atwell's actions helped Everton at their expense, it's arguable whether or not his decisions helped Luton all that much.
     
    StarTime repped this.
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Given Everton has a match in hand, one could easily argue today’s result was actually the best possible for Luton. I suppose the counterpoint is Luton still has a six-pointer with Everton. But still, that’s a wash at best. You’re probably right a draw is best result for Luton in the end.

    Regardless, it doesn’t change the dumbness of the assignment.
     
  12. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The fact we are having this discussion means the assignment was an error. The club's accusation is plausible although I don't think any conscious bias is at all likely.

    With as much money as there is in this, it seems remarkably foolish.
     
    mfw13 and code1390 repped this.
  13. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    MLS was able to pull a replacement off a game after finding him in a Messi jersey on social media, but England lets this go lol
     
    Deadtigers repped this.
  14. Barciur

    Barciur Member+

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    Too much cursing to put it up in public? :)
     
  15. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Ah yes, and I’m sure Clattenburg will report a very accurate retelling of this audio back to the Sun or the Daily Mail afterwards.
     
  16. Barciur

    Barciur Member+

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    1782851448742518828 is not a valid tweet id


    Nothing given for this.
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Once it's missed live, a VAR can make the argument that, despite the ankle roll, the contact is low enough and the force limited enough to be yellow. And then that means no intervention.

    Of course, that's England (in both cases).

    In most other places, after the initial miss, someone will figure out it needs to be at least yellow and everyone will get the referee there either through totally valid methods (AR/4th) or more of a backdoor play (VAR check completes for no SFP; implying strongly that yellow is necessary without instructing so). Either way, the referee gets the hint.

    And in some places, that ankle role and height of the challenge will be enough for an SFP intervention. But as much as I want this to be an easy/clear red, it's probably right on the border in a lot of competitions which undoubtedly puts it in the "preferred yellow" zone in the 9th minute of a late season London derby because this is England we're talking about.
     
    Mikael_Referee and Barciur repped this.
  18. the_phoenix612

    Manchester United
    United States
    Sep 13, 2022
    Houston, TX
    60' minute in MUN-SHE, Salisbury blows for a penalty as the ball is bouncing around the penalty area ... and the ball goes in.

    United score the penalty (thankfully, I'm sure, for Salisbury!) but what a moment! Who among us hasn't been there?
     
    djmtxref repped this.
  19. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mean, is that a red?

    It's an ugly tackle, but it seems like he gets the ball with the first leg and it's the second leg--bent and on the floor--that carries the brunt of the force.

    I'm fine in an amateur match saying the force is simply too high and it has to be red, but I'm not sure that's a clear red at the professional level. And given it's England, well...

    Yeah, Jackson's challenge yesterday is most definitely worse. Or if it's not "worse" to the extent everything is subjective, it has far more clear components of a red card than this one does.

    The inconsistency or arbitrary enforcement is quite something.
     
    Thezzaruz and ManiacalClown repped this.
  21. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Happened to me once. Now I am the wait and see champion
     
  22. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Spent the whole 25 second loop trying to figure out where the evidence was to send that down for SFP, and I don't think I found it after 3 or 4 times through.
     
    MassachusettsRef repped this.
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is a chance—albeit a small one—that an on-field red card for that in MLS would get reversed.

    We are simply in bizarro world. I want to hear from the people who said VAR would bring about worldwide consistency.
     
  24. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There really does seem to be a change late in this season how these tackles are handled---some new directive or something. I don't think I'm inaccurately recalling that in the early stages of this season, we were seeing tackles like Jackson's yesterday or Kilman's this past weekend being shown red.
     
  25. Barciur

    Barciur Member+

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    This was a red card given on the field, not a VAR overturn. So, there is no intervention, or rather, a recommendation of a review, which I think is the key when you are analyzing VAR interventions in England.
     

Share This Page