2023-24 England Referee Thread [EPL/EFL/Cups+][Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by code1390, Jul 28, 2023.

  1. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Found this interesting enough to start a thread.

    https://www.efl.com/news/2023/july/match-officials-adopt-new-approach-for-202324-season/

    EFL announced their approach for time wasting and time added on tracking.

    I found the part about a player staying off the field at least 30 seconds for treatment before they can be waived back on interesting.

    Of course color me skeptical about being harsher with FRD, DR and technical area behavior.
     
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  2. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Also interesting (at least to me) is that they are changing their approach to cards. Until the top tiers, they had rigidly held to the process that the R had to explain the reason to the player, ask his name, and write it down before showing the card. The are acknowledging that the process is outdated and unnecessary. As I understand it, the adherence to that regime was dogmatic and a serious black mark if not followed when being assessed.
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wait a second.

    Today is the day I learned that the EFL had not used the "multiball system" to date.

    It's been "proven to increase ball in-play time?" Yeah, since like 1987. Wow. High-level regional amateur leagues in the U.S. require multiple balls. And the EFL Championship is like "nah, one ball will do?"

    Cursory research seems to indicate that the home team is free to choose if they want multiple balls or not. Is that right? I'm imagining this is more of an issue in the first and second divisions, but still. Part of me thinks I've got this completely wrong. But then I realize this is a big enough change to get noted in a preseason press release.

    Separately, I'm interested in who is going to time/police the 30 seconds. Also, the "High Threshold" section that says absolutely nothing other than "we aren't going to call all fouls because that would be silly, wouldn't it?" is so English.
     
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  4. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think multi ball system might be referring to the covid era put a bunch of balls staged on cones thing and not the usual ball boys/girls with a ball in hand thing. I'd really be surprised if the later wasn't a thing but maybe I'm wrong.
     
  5. refinDC

    refinDC Member

    Aug 7, 2012
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    USA leading the way on this - a similar rule started in MLS Next Pro last season and seems to work.
     
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  6. djmtxref

    djmtxref Member

    Apr 8, 2013
    They started using multiple balls in the EPL during Covid. I think it was a point of pride that they stuck to the one ball system. Real football and all that.
     
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  7. Charron

    Charron Member

    Plymouth Argyle
    United States
    Apr 2, 2019
    MLS Next Pro has been using a 3-minute long version of this rule for 2 years and it's worked great. 4th official keeps track of it. Severely injured players get subbed out anyways, players who are just trying to waste time get up quickly. win-win-win
     
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  8. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I watched some of the Chelsea-Fulham game while at the gym yesterday afternoon. You would think the least Howard Webb could do for these US-based fourth officials is do them a solid and give them a Nike kit so they look like the rest of the team, right?
     
  9. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  10. Barciur

    Barciur Member+

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    Here's a larger scope of the "changes".

    https://www.skysports.com/football/...on-physical-challenges-and-add-on-wasted-time

    I really do not like this particular aspect:

    England is already much more lenient than the rest - what exactly are they trying to do with having an even higher threshold of contact? Sounds like a recipe for disaster.
     
  11. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    This is BS at least when it comes to the players. We all know what will happen if refs actually clamped down on player dissent that happens in the game. Lahoz gave 16 yellows in a la Liga game, 7 of which were dissent including one as a 2CT, and he got lambasted for it. That’s what will happen if this gets enforced.
    HAHAHA this will be comical. Even English fans were upset at seeing SFP reds given only as yellows. Hopefully this doesn’t carry even further into misconduct and take away even more SFP reds or clear reckless yellows to nothing but I’m sure it will. Bloodbath this year
     
  12. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Depends. One ref can't change behavior. But leagues that actually crack down in a consistent way find--wonder of wonders!--that players and coaches adapt to the standards being applied. Even rats can learn. After the flurry of cards, things will change. The problem is the league/competition has to have the courage to make it through the pain to the other side. That's the test.
     
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  13. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm patiently watching with interest. There's been much more discussion from FAs these last few months.

    Now will they start dealing with technical area offenses as written in the laws or will the red card offenses just become yellows now.
     
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  14. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Community Shield

    Manchester City v Arsenal
    Referee: Stuart Attwell (Birmingham FA)
    Assistant referee: Tim Wood (Gloucestershire FA)
    Assistant referee: Dan Robathan (Norfolk FA)
    Fourth official: John Brooks (Leicestershire and Rutland FA)
    Reserve assistant referee: Steve Meredith (Nottinghamshire FA)
    VAR: Michael Salisbury (Lancashire FA)
    AVAR: Neil Davies (London FA)
     
  15. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Leagues in all sports do this all the time and then revert back. I remember a few years back the NBA actually started calling traveling at the start of the season. Everyone loved it. Within a few weeks they reverted back to calling nothing.

    I remember people here mentioning that they tried auto yellow card for attackers running into the goal to get a ball to prevent conflicts. They dropped it when “this is too many yellows” and didn’t give a chance to “fix behavior”. The same thing will happen here. If they crack down on dissent and crowding, yellow every player who crowds, start yellow and 2CT or straight RC managers for their despicable behavior, the outcry will force the league to stop it. I promise you that. Even fans talk about how they want crowding eliminated. Once a few of their players get 2CTs for crowding, it will be back to “this ref is a joke, thin skin, making the game about himself”
     
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  16. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Call me a cynic, but even issuing more cautions for dissent, crowding officials, and overall technical behavior would be a pretty big step in the right direction. Sure, we've seen some high-profile red cards in the past season in England (Klopp vs Man City, for example). But overall, this still happens way too much. I think of coaches like Arteta and Lopetegui who rant about every call and Thomas Frank who is "sneaky" with how he dissents from the touchline. Those are the kinds of actions that, if they are dealt with more forcefully, would give me some positive evidence that the FA, Premier League, and PGMOL are indeed serious about this type of behavior.

    Like I said, I'll believe it when I see it. I hope I do see it.
     
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  17. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    I'm all for continuous improvement. And it's considerate of them to permit a moment's pause for a foul, when a severed limb requires retrieval by the grounds crew.

    "Leniency" in the English game--my goodness, this is like letting the fox guard the hen-house and then collect rent.
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Most lucrative sports league in the world outside North America. They are doing something right. This forum is not the target audience. Prepare to be disappointed often. Again.
     
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  19. Pittsburgh Ref

    Pittsburgh Ref Member+

    Oct 7, 2014
    da 'Burgh
    It's the hope that kills you
     
  20. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Apples and oranges. That was an experiment. Deciding that an experiment isn't worth pursuing farther is a totally different thing.
    Soccer actually enforced GKs coming off the line on PKs. Guess what? They don't come off now.

    The NBA changed player behavior by auto-tossing all contacts with refs. Guess what? Players don't bump refs. And NBA players are no less prima donas than PL players.

    As long as the view is that "nothing can change," then nothing can change. If the PL decides it actually cares, it can change the behavior. You're not actually saying they can't, you're saying they won't. Sadly, you're likely to be right. But they can. If they can sit out the pain, the behavior of players will change. They aren't stupid. As Donovon famously said, players act the way they do because it is accepted.
     
  21. Deadtigers

    Deadtigers Member+

    Jul 23, 2015
    Independent Republic of the Bronx, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Ghana
    Will see about the team conduct rules. Football is gentleman's game played by hooligans remember.
     
  22. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    I think we're obviously all correct to be skeptical. Every few years they say they're going to crack down on dissent, but everyone's still waiting. It will take an actual commitment from the leagues. I don't expect that to happen.

    The extended stoppage time sounds like a way to wear the players out even more than they already are. Too many matches and now we're going to make them all even longer. Maybe they'll be too tired to dissent or foul each other?
     
  23. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    Interesting story related to that, and 100% true.

    A few years ago the NBA Competition Committee (formed of players, coaches, and GMs, basically the dudes who write new NBA rules/POE) told the Referee Dept the game needed more travel calls, that players were being allowed to get away with too much.

    So the Referee Dept picked a random NBA game and cut 200 clips of ‘technically detectable’ travels and sent them back to the Competition Committee.

    The Committee reviewed the clips and decided only three actually warranted a call. And you know how many travels the refs had averaged per game the year before? Two. Funny how that works out. :D
     
  24. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Like I said on a different site, the test is going to be when a big-name player who is already on a caution is guilty of one of these items. Say, for example, a player like Bruno Fernandes or Harry Kane (both of whom are known to be pretty vociferous with referees) run in as the second or third player to surround a referee. By this edict, they should be shown a second yellow. Will the referees actually show that second caution, and will the Premier League and PGMOL back the referee?

    The first time this happens and PGMOL has to issue an apology, this is out the window. I'm going to be really, really skeptical we will see real results until something like this happens and the EPL and PGMOL come out and say, "We back the decision. Kane/Fernandes will serve the suspension."
     
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  25. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    It wasnt a top level superstar in a “top level” match but this happened in the Barcelona espanyol la Liga match December 2022 to jordi Alba. He got a 2CT for dissent.

    Sorry to bring up my guy again a few times when I said I wouldn’t again, but this specific match directly applies to this policy they are going to try out. 16 yellows SEVEN were for dissent including one as a 2CT. And the reception was not good.
     

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