2023-24 CONCACAF Referee Discussion [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Sep 11, 2023.

  1. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    This one I don’t get. Once the game is shut down in accordance with the guidelines, the ref is irrelevant. The story is the fans and the chant. The ref is just the agent taking action. I’d have no problem at the end of the day going back to my hotel room and having a beer, thinking job well done. It’d probably been one of the easiest decisions the ref made during the game.

    The big issue is that the chanters doing the chant are being petulant toddlers looking to get a reaction. They are wanting to be the center of attention and this whole thing grants their wish. It’s probably not going away anytime soon.
     
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  2. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    It’s ingrained in the culture. It will never stop. As long as the fans think they’re the main character and think they’re more important than the team, it will never stop
     
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  3. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    Well, it’s the dark side of soccer ultra culture, not unlike the hooliganism of the 1990s.

    There is a need to move beyond the act to its impact on the overall fan experience. This is a fan problem that will have to ultimately be resolved by fan action. That’s not to say that CONCACAF, FMF, and USSF are powerless. They just need to work through fan channels.
     
  4. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I love this idea. I think it’s practical. I think it has a chance of working. The incentives are properly aligned.
     
  5. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Technically the Gold Cup is more important but in practice half the Gold Cups have B teams. So far every Nations League has seen A teams. So in practice winning the Nations League is a bigger accomplishment.
     
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  6. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    I feel there needs to be some sort of direct financial burden placed on the fans doing the chant rather than the federation because punishments to be federation won’t change fan behavior, and mexico’s financial influence is too much to do closed door matches or risk them forfeiting games or tournaments so they won’t have a presence in later rounds and affect the bottom line.

    But I don’t know what could be feasibly done to achieve this. Adding a huge ticket surcharge to Mexico supporters to act as a security deposit. If the match has to be stopped at all due to the chants the ticket price is confirmed, if it doesn’t, then the surcharge is refunded? If a match hits the stoppage, all Mexico supporters in the stadium who purchased tickets get lifetime stadium bans?

    Obviously these are ridiculous and not feasible solutions. But they gotta do something directly on the fans
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Isn't it also a recipe for potential disaster and fan violence, though? I mean, what would the directives be to (non-police) stadium security? Removing people for a very specific chant could be hard, particularly since it's among a large group.

    You could have rather heavy-handed security eject dozens of people and it still might not be enough--and could enflame things. I'm not sure if that means the incentives are properly aligned.
     
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  8. ThreeApples

    ThreeApples Member+

    Jul 28, 1999
    Smurf Village
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The only incentive it would create would be that the stadiums would be incentivized to never have the team play there. Stadium security can't pre-emptively prevent the chant, and absent massive and draconian numbers of security personnel, it is limited in what it can do to punish people after the fact when there are thousands of offenders. If it's to the point that there's a need to clear out multiple entire sections, then the game shouldn't be going on anyway, and that's on the organizers, not the stadium.
     
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  9. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's gonna be so strange to hear the crowd noise go quiet on the broadcast of Mexico games in 2026.
     
  10. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The rumors/reports from 'people in the know" around here is that Empower Field said no more to hosting Mexico after the mess of the first Nations League final in 2021. They haven't played here since then. That will change in June though as Empower hosts Mexico-Uruguay. But I don't know if they see that as a different since its a friendly and not against a regional rival like the Nations League or Gold Cup matches they've hosted Mexico for in the past.
     
  11. mathguy ref

    mathguy ref Member+

    Nov 15, 2016
    TX
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    The college town I live in is hosting Mexico v Brazil in a friendly on June 8. The stadium seats 105,000.

    I really want to go. I also really don’t want to go. Quite the conundrum.
     
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  12. El Rayo Californiano

    Feb 3, 2014
    There were dueling chants when they played in each other at the World Cup in 2014.
     
  13. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
  14. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    TUESDAY, APRIL 2, 2024

    Columbus Crew (USA) vs Tigres UANL (MEX)

    REF: SELVIN BROWN (Honduras)
    AR1: GERSON ORELLANA (Honduras)
    AR2: ENMANUEL AGUIRRE (Nicaragua)
    4TH: MARIO ESCOBAR (Guatemala)
    VAR: DANEON PARCHMENT (Jamaica)
    VAR1: TATIANA GUZMAN (Nicaragua)

    New England Revolution (USA) vs Club America (MEX)
    REF: ISMAEL CORNEJO (El Salvador)
    AR1: DAVID MORAN (El Salvador)
    AR2: ZACHARI ZEEGELAAR (Suriname)
    4TH: JULIO LUNA (Guatemala)
    VAR: BENJAMIN PINEDA (Costa Rica)
    VAR1: RICARDO MONTERO (Costa Rica)


    WEDNESDAY, APRIL 3, 2024

    Inter Miami CF (USA) vs CF Monterrey (MEX)

    REF: WALTER LOPEZ (Guatemala)
    AR1: KEYTZEL CORRALES (Nicaragua)
    AR2: RAYMUNDO FELIZ (Dominican Republic)
    4TH: BRYAN LOPEZ (Guatemala)
    VAR: RICARDO MONTERO (Costa Rica)
    VAR1: BENJAMIN PINEDA (Costa Rica)

    CS Herediano (CRC) vs CF Pachuca (MEX)
    REF: TORI PENSO (USA)
    AR1: BROOKE MAYO (USA)
    AR2: KATHRYN NESBITT (USA)
    4TH: ARMANDO VILLARREAL (USA)
    VAR: TATIANA GUZMAN (Nicaragua)
    VAR1: DANEON PARCHMENT (Jamaica)
     
  15. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Brown seems very comfortable with a lot of physical contact from the Tigres players.
     
  16. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    On the 2CT, I don't think I even have a foul.

    And then we have the wrestle to the ground to prevent a last attack, and we get.... and long pause and... and... and... Are they reviewing for a possible head butt as the Crew player is trying to extract himself? and... cross yourself, final whistle. Sheesh.
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't see the match but when I saw this clip (without audio) my first instinct was "oh that might be red for the headbutt." So I totally understood the delay. But I guess this is the newish world where "light" headbutts, so to speak, don't matter.

    What I did not realize was the yellow card for the first foul was never given... eesh.



    Continuing the "I didn't see the match" theme... this does seem like a pretty simple 2CT to me, though I have heard the first caution was somewhat suspect. And if you juxtapose it all against the lack of the caution in the other play above, I can at least understand complaints about consistency.



    By the way, this is just some random user in the replies, but I noticed this photo below. It's a good reminder that appearances matter. We can't all be robots. But you also need to be aware of context and larger situations with your body language and facial expressions. Particularly at the level with several cameras. It's hard to defend an official laughing with a player at that moment of a match like that. It's probably easily explainable but it doesn't look good.

     
  18. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    I thought the possible headbutt was because the Tigres player pulled the Crew player back to the ground (he's still got him in a bear hug) and not that the Crew player "butted", as it were.

    My view was that the Crew player slid in to block the ball, got the ball, stayed down, etc. The point of contact was low on the Tigres player, and all of the force came from the Tigres player, not the Crew player. The Tigres player dragged a bit so he could fall over the Crew player, and then roll around like a grounded fish.

    The Crew were all begging for the ref to go look at an OFR, but, as a caution, it's not reviewable.

    I don't twat. I assume that's Tigres #10 palling it around with the 4O during stoppage? If so, yeah, it was a bad look.
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It took me a minute to understand what this even meant. I kind of still don't. You can not post on that platform (I don't), not like the owner (I don't), etc., etc., etc. You could still click the links. Doing so, at minimum, would show you're definitely incorrect about the potential headbutt situation. I think it would also illustrate that the 2CT tackle was quite poor and both reckless and SPA. It seems easier to discuss incidents by looking at the readily available video. But, okay if you really don't want to.
     
  20. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    What is the past tense of tweet? And should we call it "Xed (formerly known as twitter)"?

    Fair enough. I saw the potential headbutt once, at speed, and it seemed more like trying-to-get-up-and-getting-pulled-back-down.

    In any event, it's CONCACAAF.
     
  21. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    3:45 has close up replays of the 2CT



    No contact on the ball, flies through the side of the attackers thigh/hip. Easy yellow card especially with SPA considerations also present as the attacker is poised to get into the box
     
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  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also the first YC was for blatant/visual dissent and not the foul, huh? Sorry, zero sympathies on this one.
     
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  23. soccerref69420

    soccerref69420 Member+

    President of the Antonio Miguel Mateu Lahoz fan cub
    Mar 14, 2020
    Nat'l Team:
    Korea DPR
    Never fails to make me laugh how most of the time peoples complaints about refereeing can be completely disproven by watching actual video of said incidents
     
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  24. soccerdad72

    soccerdad72 Member

    Chelsea
    United States
    Apr 5, 2021
    Pretty sure it was, yeah. The Fox broadcast only showed it briefly, but after the call was made on Morris, you could see him in the background flailing his arms towards the ref (and, I assume, words came with those actions).

    The 2CT, in my opinion, was correct as well (and I'm a Crew fan). It was a dumb tackle from Morris, especially given the circumstances.

    The last sequence was oddly handled - as the Tigres player is arguing about a headbutt, the ref seems to have completely forgotten that the whole thing started by a bear hug tackle by that same player complaining. And then just decided to call the game instead of taking any action.
     
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  25. RefGil

    RefGil Member

    Dec 10, 2010
    No contact on the ball? Flies through the attacker's hip? The video linked has already been taken down, but that must be a completely different play from what was shown live on FS before the caution.

    And I'm not complaining about the ref, per se. I don't have a dog in this fight. Notice that I haven't named any players, since I don't know who any of them are. I just thought that the ref was letting Tigres game the snot out of him.
     

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