This could not be further from the truth. Those professional leagues have the same knucklehead behavior from both players and coaches and will eat a referee alive because they have way more to lose and/or they think they are better than you. It’s not difficult to manage your way out of an amateur situation when the majority of players are young/average college players and one subpar quality camera is streaming the game (that no one will ever watch) and 10 people are in the stands (USL2). It’s exponentially more difficult when you are dealing with slick pro players who know how to manipulate opponents and referees to their advantage and player and coach intensity is heightened because their jobs are on the line. It brings much more nuance to the game that you don’t get in USL2/NPSL etc. The professional game is broadcast in a way that doesn’t always highlight challenging player behaviors that go on in the game and the vicious beratings a referee can get from players, coaches, and fans, but it happens all the time. It’s a night and day comparison. Not to say you couldn’t have challenging games in USL2, but compared to L1 or Championship those games are a walk in the park.
Especially with a username like this, this just sounds like someone who has let a lot of USL2 games get away from them. I'm going to assume your pregames always start off with "I like to let them play"
What!? I've done some ECSR and NCAA college games in my past and can't imagine this is factually accurate. The college fall season is 12 weeks long and there are hardly any travel opportunities in the shortened spring season. Most college games are somewhere between $130 (DIII) and $500 (DI, including travel & per diem). $50K over a 12-week season is about $4,000 per week. That's at least 4+ airfare-travel assignments per week, every week, for the biggest conferences that compensate referees well for travel. Those conferences have big lists and many refs on those lists are FIFAs, nationals, and regionals. The few "grassroots" refs I know of from those lists were formerly highly-rated in USSF (former MLS refs, former nationals, former high-level state refs) but have since focused on the college game and let their advanced registration lapse. I have a very tough time believing that even the most-used college big-conference regulars are taking in much more than $20-25K a year, even if they're doing it basically full time. There's just not that many high-paying games for individual refs to profit that significantly. I can see $30K, maybe, being the top end for a few referees....but not $50K and certainly not $50K from lots of grassroots refs. +1. USL2 can be difficult and challenging to manage, no doubt. Coaches and players can certainly treat referees like crap and referees should not put up with that. The Des Moines/Kaw Valley clip shows that pretty darn well. But the actual pros are significantly more effective at manipulating opponents, undermining authority, and causing problems that are harder for referees to deal with. Most of the posts on this thread highlight those problems. I have a tough time believing that games get easier at the pro level.
Yes, agree with you. I thought that post was a bit fantastical. I suppose it's possible for someone to catch lightning in a bottle, but for all the years I've been doing college and working with ECSR, etc... I don't really know anyone that post describes. Anyone coming to these groups from the outside would have to know lots of people to get a first year bump like that without an established background. And, totally agree regarding pro players. Not only are some of the most challenging personalities found in the higher levels, but they are also pros at manipulation and the better they get at playing , the more they've dealt with experienced referees and know how to "work" them, too.
I'll say you aren't wrong on the first bit about regional patch means something to those referees 18-25 and those with PRO aspirations. I'll add the caveat that it also depends on the state you are in or if you are traveling. Some states they could care less like mine! Other states look at regional as someone who is "battle tested" now I'm sure your results may vary and skill levels. As @Law5 has said before, a place like Wyoming can not hope to have a solid set of regionals as opposed to somewhere like Cal-South. The Elite College Soccer Referee's matters for the D1 Midwest and East coast but if you are on the other coast. Then you will know which assignor you have to go thru for Pac12, etc. I'd say there is closer to 75% of D1 that goes through them.
I respect your opinion and I'm fine with it, I am not trying to change your mind. Below I'm gonna write some numbers and details, feel free to document yourself, get back to me and prove me wrong. 1) College Season doesn't last 12 weeks. - Spring Season begins very end of February and last games are the very first week of May. (8-9 weeks) - Fall Seasons begins August 6th and D1 Mens Finals for all or the majority of the conferences are November 13th (14 Weeks) - NCAA begins the week of November 7th and College Cup is the 2nd week of December. So, when you say 12 weeks you are already assuming something that is very far from the truth. 2) Each D1 school is allowed to play 5 Spring season games and ref fees are for the most part different from the Fall Season and NCAA Tournament. - With this being said there are several schools who still use their coordinator of officials and pay full fee and mileage, exactly the same as the fall season. Obviously those are very few, as most of the coaches "assign" referees for their spring season "scrimmages" and fees for the middle can go from $150 to $300. Some conferences pay $500 for the middle for their spring games. Games are mostly on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. D3 I believe they are only allowed to play 2 games(It might be 3 but not sure on that). A lot of schools organize 3 60 minutes games back2back with 3 schools and several D3 conferences use their coordinator of officials for the spring games and pay exactly the same as the fall season(Middle between $205 and $235 for 90 minutes), some they pay half fee regarding the fall season. Don't forget some areas within 1h drive they have an incredible number of schools. 3) Most of the D1 conferences pay between $320 and $360 game fee, plus mileage and tolls. So when you say $500 for a D1 game it could be true if we are talking about D1 low or average conferences. It's far from the truth if we are talking about big conferences. A lot of them pay between $425 and $475 game fee, $225 to $275 per diem, $410 to $600 travel max. I don't know where you live, but I can tell you that around here the very minimum that D3 pay is $205, most of them they pay like $215-$225, D2 slightly more and a lot of them pay tolls as well(D2 and D3). You mentioned $130, like I said not here... 4) Some big conferences plays Tuesdays and Fridays(Mens). Thursdays and Sundays(Women). Others play several if not all days of the week, including Mondays and Tuesdays. Numerous conferences play on Wednesdays and Saturdays. I can keep going, but it's pretty clear that good referees that have availability can work every single day... Can they work more than a game per day? Technically not from the same assignor... Practically on big days like Wednesday, Saturday, Sunday... I can guarantee you a lot of people work two games from different assignors, like 1pm - 7pm. 2 Centers? Yes 2 Centers as a lot of assignors use certain referees only in the middle. Obviously there are areas where you can find a bunch of schools less than 1h drive, if you make it 2h we are talking about a VERY large number. Let's say you drive 2h for a 1pm game, 7pm is let's say another hour further... now we are talking about 2 games where they gonna pay you mileage from your house. Let's say a big conference is gonna fly you to "A" for a Friday game, another big conference is gonna fly you to "B" on Saturday and another one on "C" for a Sunday game. What about if A to B is like 1-2h drive? You are getting paid as if you were leaving from your home or the nearest airport. Also, do you believe these guys have to pay hotel, Uber etc. all the time or you think a lot of them with the years they have friends to stay over, ARs or 4th are nice to give them a ride etc. 5) You mentioned MLS and FIFA? Referees doing college? Center referees they are just not allowed, forget about FIFA. Also the most part of the refs that are on PRO list (Tier or No Tier), Nationals etc. have assignments on Saturday/Sunday, sometimes during the week... therefore they have BIG limitations on doing college, especially Thursdays to Sunday. Obviously they will never reject a PRO assignment, even if 4th. Don't forget also that a lot of RG who are trying to upgrade to become National and are "dreaming" to become PRO they have their state adult assignments, national youth events, MLS Next, so their availability can be very challenging as well. People have (other) jobs... Therefore college coordinator of officials are "FORCED" to use a lot of GS referees(that have a good availability), even for the big games. It's just a matter of numbers. 5) I'm sure you don't have time and most important you don't care, but assignments are practically online, you can just take a look to the box scores of the games and officials are listed. You would be very surprised to see the number of games that some officials do from August 6th until the end. Adding the spring games as well.
Full credit to Matt Geheringer (sp?) from St. Louis (I think-I was at an ODP event with AR2 last night and he thought he was from St. Louis). He’s been excellent tonight in the Flint City-Des Moines USL2 quarterfinal. It has been a physical game, and he’s managed it really well. I believe we are at 12 cautions (7 for Flint, 5 for DSM) and two sending offs (Flint 2CT, DSM DOGSO), but he’s kept things under control well. This game could have easily gone off the rails. Live link here.
I'm way down at the grassroots, so I can't speak first-hand about which league is most difficult to ref, but I'd have to toss in the fact that USWNT players do all they can do disparage any authority figure associated with the NWSL, including and especially referees.
My experience is only based on 1 game as that's all I did as CR for PRO W It was in Orlando and the teams behavior inside the field was extremely respectful. Benches were more problematic, especially ACs. If I had to choose I rather deal with W than with M.
NPSL Championship match referee crew: MSU SOCCER PARK 8/6/2022 FC MOTOWN (NJ) vs. CROSSFIRE REDMOND (WA) BRIAN CORDOVA-MUNOZ (08 / CAN) PAUL A. PATTERSON (06 / CAN) JUSTEN LOPEZ (05 / ENY) TONY HARRISON (06 / SD)
online... USL2 Championship Match referee crew: VENTURA COLLEGE SPORTSPLEX 8/6/2022 VENTURA COUNTY FUSION (CA) vs. LONG ISLAND ROUGH RIDERS (NY) TREVOR WISEMAN (06 / CAS) SERVANDO BERNA (CAS) STEVE SKILLE (05 / CAS) IVAN DE CRISTOFARO (07 / CAS)
They're exploiting gameofficials' poor permissions to access it. That's why the grades are inaccurately listed the way they are.
Yep, but ain't no way the UPSL is flying in a referee and an AR1 from Canada like NPSL. The UPSL is the cheapest of the cheap...
Wow this is interesting. Patterson and Munoz are both from my area. I have worked with Patterson before, and while I haven't worked with Munoz, I see him all over the MLS Next and adult amateur circuit. Would be really surprised if that Grassroots 8 is accurate, but then again like we talked about earlier in here, grassroots can get you pretty far.. Both of them went to USYS regionals and were selected for USYS nationals as well according to the CNRA website. Anyone know how they decide the refs for these games? NJ vs. WA team and they bring two referees from Northern California and I assume those are Eastern New York and South Dakota.
The assignor (assuming Paul Scott) appoints them. It is probably a combination of performance/assessment in the league, team evaluations in the league, and what the assignor knows of these folks. Also, the GO "grade" system is not tied to anything official anymore, so it's entirely possible that nothing there is accurate, although it could be... NPSL is adult amateur so a grassroots official could do it under USSF rules, although that's not to say that NPSL doesn't have its own standard regarding this for its postseason.