2022 MLS Week 4 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by A66C, Mar 14, 2023.

  1. A66C

    A66C Member

    N/A
    United States
    Jan 3, 2022
    03/18/23

    Seattle Sounders vs Los Angeles FC
    Lumen Field (4PM ET)
    REF: Ismail Elfath
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Kevin Lock
    4TH: Ramy Touchan
    VAR: Geoff Gamble
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    Atlanta United vs Portland Timbers
    Mercedes-Benz Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Ian McKay
    4TH: Ben Pilgrim
    VAR: Jair Marrufo
    AVAR: Jozef Batko

    CF Montréal vs Philadelphia Union
    Stade Olympique (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Lyes Arfa
    AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    4TH: Filip Dujic
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    New England Revolution vs Nashville
    Gillette Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Jon Freemon
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Adam Garner
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Kevin Stott
    AVAR: Rene Parra

    New York Red Bulls vs Columbus Crew
    Red Bull Arena (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Timothy Ford
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Brian Dunn
    4TH: Guido Gonzales Jr
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    New York City FC vs D.C. United
    Yankee Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Mark Allatin
    AR1: Andrew Bigelow
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Chris Penso
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    Orlando City vs Charlotte FC
    Exploria Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Nick Uranga
    AR2: Brian Poeschel
    4TH: Tori Penso
    VAR: Kevin Terry Jr
    AVAR: Eric Weisbrod

    Toronto FC vs Inter Miami
    BMO Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Alex Chilowicz
    AR1: Micheal Barwegen
    AR2: Stefan Tanaka-Freundt
    4TH: Gianni Facchini
    VAR: Luis Guardia
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    Chicago Fire vs FC Cincinnati
    Soldier Field (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Fotis Bazakos
    AR1: Chris Wattam
    AR2: Adam Wienckowski
    4TH: Lukasz Szpala
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi
    AVAR: Tom Supple

    FC Dallas vs Sporting Kansas City
    Toyota Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Pierre-Luc Lauziere
    AR1: Ryan Graves
    AR2: Jeffrey Swartzel
    4TH: Ismir Pekmic
    VAR: Carol Anne Chenard
    AVAR: Robert Schaap

    Houston Dynamo vs Austin FC
    Shell Energy Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Felisha Mariscal
    AR2: Diego Blas
    4TH: Kyle Atkins
    VAR: David Barrie
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    St. Louis CITY vs San Jose Earthquakes
    CITYPARK (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Rosendo Mendoza
    AR1: Cory Richardson
    AR2: Walt Heatherly
    4TH: Allen Chapman
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Tyler Wyrostek

    Colorado Rapids vs Minnesota United
    Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (9:30PM ET)
    REF: Rubiel Vazquez
    AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt
    AR2: Brooke Mayo
    4TH: Jeffrey Greeson
    VAR: Alejandro Mariscal
    AVAR: Gjovalin Bori

    LA Galaxy vs Vancouver Whitecaps
    Dignity Health Sports Park (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Victor Rivas
    AR1: Jose Da Silva
    AR2: Mike Rottersman
    4TH: Corey Rockwell
    VAR: Geoff Gamble
    AVAR: Mike Kampmeinert
     
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  2. gaolin

    gaolin Member

    Apr 21, 2019
    Birmingham, AL
    The stars are aligning.

    @coreyrock must be strange as a 4th, eh?
     
  3. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Honest question-how many ARs working as 4ths like Rockwell and Atkins are at least doing high-level collegiate middles? We know Corey does, and I have to assume someone like Atkins has done some level of whistles.

    While we never wish for injuries, it’s obvious that the fourth is one pulled muscle or collision away from being in the middle. If Corey does have to step in for Rivas (and again, I obviously don’t want to see Victor injured), I think he can safely retire having checked off all the boxes on his career.
    :)
     
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  4. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Corey is a better referee than half of the PRO referees, no doubt about that.
     
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  5. incognitoind

    incognitoind Member

    Apr 8, 2015
    Fun fact, the 4O is not required to replace the referee should he be injured. Officials on games like these are being told ahead of time who will take over in the event of injury.
     
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  6. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That said, Corey's already been the designated backup whistle for a game on which he was AR1 so I suspect he's been designated again today.
     
  7. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Elfath with a very solid game in SEA-LAFC. Things got very chippy late in the first half, but he got things under control. Cautions were at the right time. Just a very good performance in a big game.
     
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  8. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Funny....my perception was the opposite (note that I'm a Sounders fan who was at the match, so saw what I saw live, not via TV replays).

    I thought he was very inconsistent. Early in the match, he let a lot of stuff go, which led to the huge mass confrontation at the end of the first half when someone from LAFC tried to kick the ball out of Frei's hands.

    Then in the 2nd half he started handing out cards fairly randomly, yet bent over backwards not to send Acosta off for a 2CT. And there was one incident where he signaled a foul in the wrong direction, sending the stadium into an uproar.

    Obviously, he landed the plane just fine, and there were no KMI's, but I did not think it was one of his better performances. Very inconsistent vis-a-vis what level of contact was a foul/YC. He was handing cards out in the 2nd half for fouls that he didn't even call in the first 20-25 minutes.
     
  9. TLR2

    TLR2 Member

    Mar 26, 2016
    Club:
    Everton FC
    He also “bent over backwards” to keep Lodero on the field. No way Lodero didn’t deserve a 2nd yellow for stopping a promising attack on the second half.

     
  10. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Umm....Lodeiro didn't even get a first yellow.....I'm pretty sure you have him confused with someone else....Joao Paolo got a YC in the 1st half for a professional foul, but was subbed off around the 60th minute mark.
     
  11. TLR2

    TLR2 Member

    Mar 26, 2016
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Roldan! My bad.
    Still less embarrassing than pointing the wrong way
     
  12. Barciur

    Barciur Member+

    Apr 25, 2010
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Poland
    A bit of a mess in the end of the Montreal - Philadelphia game. Goal scored, VAR review, goal disallowed. Then... VAR calls the referee again because it turns out they missed a Philadelphia defender at the very bottom of the pitch. So he goes to the screen again and they reverse the previous check.

    It's interesting to me that they decided the offside decision required the referee to go to the RRA.
     
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  13. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's PRO's policy even though the VAR protocol in the Laws doesn't require it for this decision.

    This was almost a huge oopsie.
     
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  14. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    Let's be honest -- the fact that PRO does this is pretty much all that saved their bacon on this play.
     
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  15. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    I wonder if AR1 might have had some input there as well
     
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  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Very complicated situation in Dallas at 90' (at least when the review occurred) but it's done correctly. Penalty and 2CT red card both annulled because of an offside where the fouled player is in an OSP ahead of the ball and then receives the ball (prior to being fouled) off a deflection from a defender.

    You wouldn't see this reviewed in England. I will also note that Unkel had no idea what they were reviewing, which I suppose speaks to how hard referee analysis can be in real-time with the pressures of the studio setting; she was literally talking about DOGSO and potentially a phantom foul when the offside decision was communicated.

    Also a good disallowance of an offside goal (interfering with keeper's line of sight) via VAR at 50' in Chicago
     
  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #17 MassachusettsRef, Mar 18, 2023
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2023
    I get what you're saying, but I don't think this is true. The only thing that saved their bacon, so to speak, is that the broadcast showed an angle with the relevant 2LD in the frame before any restart took place. Either the VAR/AVAR duo saw that on the live feed and had their "oh shit" moment or the VAR/AVAR duo somehow caught it on their own while going through additional replays after Sagahfi had already left the monitor the first time.

    Either way, it's not so much MLS' process that saved things here but that Philadelphia wasn't able to take the IFK restart before the VAR team realized they had missing evidence. In theory, the exact same thing could happen with the drawing of lines. Put this in the EPL... VAR duo draws the wrong lines, tells the referee its offside. Referee says offside and raises arm for IFK. Prior to restart, VAR duo sees the angle with the relevant 2LD and they say "DO NOT RESTART!!!!" Same result, so long as the restart hasn't occurred. That's everything here.

    Watching the whole thing, two thoughts...

    A) Saghafi cannot be happy with Radford and Lowry. If not caught, that is an inexcusable mistake. But it's also inexcusable to give Saghafi incomplete information and put him in that position to begin with. Saghafi might bear some responsibility for not asking for the wider angle and/or remembering the defender would be there, but given everything on a referee's shoulders at that point, this is 99% on the VAR team and maybe 1% on Saghafi and AR1 (who could have piped up and said "guys, there's no way that was offside... in fact, now that I write this it is POSSIBLE that's how this got solved... Arfa might have been in everyone's ear and said "you guys are crazy because there was a player near the goal line.").

    B) Given the unorthodox nature of this event and the fact that there was already a long delay and already a caution to the technical area, I wonder if Saghafi could have short-circuited some issues by going over to the technical areas before he want back to the monitor to communicate what he had just been told and why he was doing what he was about to do. With Curtin and Losada (particularly given his volatility at that moment), maybe I'm engaging in a pipedream. But there is something to be said about preemptively trying to manage the teams and match overall when you know you're going to have to do something pretty wild that no one has ever seen.

    Side note: I love the announcers talking about how it couldn't be offside because it was off the crossbar. Experts in positions of perceived authority abound.
     
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  18. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Exhibit B was Kyndra de St. Aubin at the start of ATL-POR saying how she cannot see how a Portland attacker directly between Williamson (the shooter) and Guzan while in an offside position can be called for offside. From the moment of the shot, I was thinking offside. The angle in the stands behind the goal made it very clear and obvious. She did not cover herself in glory at all trying to explain that one.
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    An added wrinkle.



    It’s possible some version of this is true. But it still involves the VAR duo then seeing it and saying “oh shit don’t restart.”
     
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  20. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Mendoza did a great job in STL:SJ last night.
    Very impressive command.
    Squashed the nonsense immediately.
     
  21. bluetooner

    bluetooner Member

    Nov 7, 2008
    Carteret NJ
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    I wonder that top, for VAR checks do the ARs get involved with the discussion? I also wonder where they get the feed from, because that should have been an easy spot from a better angle but the only angle shown on the replays was the one that had Wagner missing. Nearly a disaster but VAR reversing the VAR decision, even though it was right to do so, isn't a good look.

    (The replays and feed from apple was absolutely terrible all night, they completely missed the red cars in live time because they were showing some random footage so I hope VAR gets control of all cameras)
     
  22. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ARs and 4ths are essentially instructed to shut up during checks and reviews unless they have something critical to add.

    You’ll hear a lot of ARs, at the beginning of a check, describe a key bit of information (e.g., “he was in an offside position but I couldn’t tell who played it last so kept the flag down” to help guide a check or review). But not much more after that. It then becomes a referee-VAR communication. Unless, or course, they have something vital. Like could be the case here. Though that would be a stretch because he should/would be saying that earlier in the process, more likely.

    The scenario where something from the MTL bench prompted the 4th to tell everyone they might be on the cusp of self-immolation isn’t that far fetched.
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And by not "far fetched" I mean "basically accurate." Montreal's knowledge that there was a player on the line was what prompted the VAR to look again. Whether it actually came from Wanyama initially and whether it was directed to the fourth aren't things I can discern, but a re-look was prompted because "they're saying there was a guy on the line" or something to that effect made its way into the comms.

    All that said, the VAR duo and Saghafi should not have missed this the first time. Even on the camera angle initially sent down, the relevant 2LD was visible right at the end.

    This was absolute disaster (barely) averted.
     
  24. TxSooner

    TxSooner Member

    Aug 12, 2011
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    https://proreferees.com/2023/03/20/pro-statement-2023-mtl-vs-phi/

    This kind of begs the question, if one doesn't have video that shows that wider angle, how can one make a conclusive judgement of offside in the first place?
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But they did have video that showed the wider angle. And, in fact, this story isn't quite right--even on the video sent down to the monitor, the relevant 2LD was eventually visible at the end of the loop. Everyone just missed him.

    VAR is only as good as its personnel. There was human error here. You can say they chose the wrong angle to focus in on or you can say they focused too much at the goal area and didn't consider the foreground. Or you can say both, really. But it was very easy to make a conclusive judgment about offside with the available video. It was a 90th minute equalizer and things got rushed and they made a mistake. That's really about it here. It would have been a massive mistake if it didn't get caught in time, so everyone can just count themselves lucky that it was.
     

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