2022 MLS Week 28 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by A66C, Aug 30, 2022.

  1. A66C

    A66C Member

    N/A
    United States
    Jan 3, 2022
    08/31/22

    Philadelphia Union vs Atlanta United
    Subaru Park (7PM ET)
    REF: Lukasz Szpala
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Kevin Klinger
    4TH: Joshua Encarnacion
    VAR: Rosendo Mendoza
    AVAR: Tom Supple

    Columbus Crew vs Inter Miami
    Lower.com Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Andrew Bigelow
    AR2: Diego Blas
    4TH: Matt Thompson
    VAR: Ismail Elfath
    AVAR: Robert Schaap

    CF Montréal vs New York Red Bulls
    Stade Saputo (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Victor Rivas
    AR1: Jeffrey Greeson
    AR2: Chantal Boudreau
    4TH: Jon Freemon
    VAR: Malik Badawi
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    New England Revolution vs Chicago Fire
    Gillette Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Marcos DeOliveira
    AR1: Jose Da Silva
    AR2: Gjovalin Bori
    4TH: Adam Kilpatrick
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    Orlando City vs Seattle Sounders
    Exploria Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Alex Chilowicz
    AR1: Ryan Graves
    AR2: Tyler Wyrostek
    4TH: Fotis Bazakos
    VAR: Kevin Terry Jr
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    Toronto FC vs LA Galaxy
    BMO Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Adam Wienckowski
    4TH: Guido Gonzales Jr
    VAR: Alejandro Mariscal
    AVAR: Cory Richardson

    New York City FC vs D.C. United
    Red Bull Arena (8PM ET)
    REF: Ismir Pekmic
    AR1: Brian Dunn
    AR2: Brian Poeschel
    4TH: JC Griggs
    VAR: Allen Chapman
    AVAR: Peter Balciunas

    Houston Dynamo vs Los Angeles FC
    PNC Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Matthew Conger
    AR1: Gianni Facchini
    AR2: Brooke Mayo
    4TH: Elton Garcia
    VAR: Jair Marrufo
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    Nashville vs Colorado Rapids
    GEODIS Park (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Mark Allatin
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Kyle Atkins
    4TH: Silviu Petrescu
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Eric Weisbrod

    Austin FC vs Portland Timbers
    Q2 Stadium (9PM ET)
    REF: Chris Penso
    AR1: Chris Wattam
    AR2: Jeff Hosking
    4TH: Ramy Touchan
    VAR: Timothy Ford
    AVAR: Kathryn Nesbitt

    Real Salt Lake vs Minnesota United
    Rio Tinto Stadium (9:30PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Eduardo Jeff
    4TH: Brad Jensen
    VAR: Michael Radchuk
    AVAR: Craig Lowry
     
  2. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    NJ/NY Gotham FC vs North Carolina Courage
    Red Bull Arena (5PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Amilcar Sicaju
    AR2: Jennifer Dumaine
    4TH: Jeremy Scheer

    Interesting NWSL appointment.

    In Gotham’s previous game, the officials made a big error in awarding Gotham a corner kick when the ball allegedly crossed the goal line between the posts and under the crossbar. (I’m not actually convinced that the ball ever entirely crossed the goal line, but that’s what the match officials ruled anyways, and PRO said it did, so). PRO released a statement the following day saying that it was an egregious error ad that the officials involved with the error were removed from their next assignments.
     
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  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don’t know the full back story here but I will say that making this assignment on that short of notice would be highly unusual (and violate the CBA?). Also it would mean Villarreal was available OR pulled off an MLS match.

    So I’m not sure this is a direct consequence of the phantom corner kick. And if it is, not to be pedantic but don’t you need better ARs?

    Regardless, interested to learn exactly how this came about and to see how it goes.
     
  4. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It seems like one hell of a conincidence that Armando was already assigned his first ever NWSL match ahead of the incident and just happened to be on the team who was on the wrong side of said incident...

    How such a change works with the CBA is well outside of my knowledge so I'd be curious to learn what you hear.
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agree with everything you say. Not saying it's not a direct consequence. But that was incredibly fast if it was. Like if Villarreal had Labor Day weekend off from MLS, he would have known it for 3 weeks--if not longer. So to be called into duty for this one NWSL match? And that means someone--who had nothing to do with the error a couple days ago--got bumped? It's certainly possible, but you're irritating two referees who had nothing to do with any of the issues just to... do what, exactly, relative to the decision?

    This is a stand-alone Week 17 match for NWSL, with more matches coming the following weekend. Maybe an arrangement was made weeks ago to start using some MLS referees in September? If so, the coincidence is that it happens to be the same team who had the corner kick decision go against them being scheduled as the one stand-alone match this weekend.
     
  6. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And if you're going to use MLS refs on occasion, when you look at the standings this match doesn't need it. Both teams are missing the playoffs. So it being the team bottom of the table that was on the wrong side of a bad call...
     
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  7. incognitoind

    incognitoind Member

    Apr 8, 2015
    This assignment (and at least one more) has been scheduled for a while. Not a reaction to anything last week
     
    jarbitro and MassachusettsRef repped this.
  8. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    It has? Where is that posted?
     
  9. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was not posted anywhere publicly, but I can independently corroborate that the assignment predates the error in Gotham's most recent match.
     
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  10. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    Pics or it didn't happen!

    Nah I believe you, interesting though, why just this random assignment if he hasn't had one ever? Are there just, not a lot of NWSL refs?
     
  11. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's a remarkable coincidence, but interesting none the less.
     
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is another similar assignment coming. And, yes, I can also now confirm these were made weeks ago.
     
  13. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    Is the complaining about refs coming to a head in the NWSL?
     
  14. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    How are you all able to confirm these things. Just curious
     
  15. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    It must be, it feels like it would be a significant financial investment by the league to hire PRO’s top officials. And I don’t think it will be very long before NWSL fans realize that MLS referees make mistakes too; this “complaining about refs” problem exists in every league, MLS too, and it isn’t going away.

    I can’t speak for referees working at that level obviously, but I feel like this is a bad development for referees if these assignments happen on a regular basis. The reality is that the NWSL, compared with MLS, is a much easier league to referee, has a smaller following, has lower stakes, has a lower quality of play, and offers far worse infrastructure and amenities for referees. For these reasons, the best referees should be working in MLS, not splitting time with the NWSL. Some supporters may try to play the “equality” card, but the truth is that the NWSL is not equal to MLS in any meaningful sense.

    To me, seems like a poor use of your most valuable officials’ time, and many of them are probably not particularly interested in working in that league anyways. They would be much better utilized, and, I assume for plenty of them, would much more enjoy, working an MLS game, having a weekend off, or even mentoring local referees in their home state. I hope that the union is on top of all of this and, if this becomes a new assignment norm, that the referees get some CBA goodies in exchange for it.
     
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  16. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    There seems to be a Deep State of referees.
     
  17. incognitoind

    incognitoind Member

    Apr 8, 2015
    @gaolin
    I’m sure you know there are people on this board that are either in PRO, are friends with PRO officials, or have access to the PRO assigning system.
     
  18. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    I did not. Now I do. Guess I need to make friends.
     
  19. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    (Puts under glaring lamp) A Likely Story!
     
  20. MetroFever

    MetroFever Member+

    Jun 3, 2001
    Club:
    New York Red Bulls
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia






    Why is Marcos always so difficult?

    He's actually asking "Does it hit his right hand or his left hand?" VAR always needs to talk to him in a childlike tone describing why it's a PK as if he's a Grassroots Referee.

    This was a slam dunk hand ball and should not have taken more than a few seconds to view.
     
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  21. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    I think he asked before they played it for him so he would know what he was watching for?

    While I agree that this is 100% an expected HB call, for me it is another example of unnaturally bigger not really being what the words mean. His arm was in a completely natural position for what he was doing. His arm spun out as he was stopping and turning, which is completely natural. (And there was no plausible way in which he was trying to take up space, as that was never a likely place for the ball to go.) I really struggle with the difference between the language and the meaning. I get that we are trying to not force players to do things excessively unnatural to avoid being hit by the ball (e.g. trying to play defense with arms behind the back), but we are certainly expecting them to do things that are somewhat unnatural to avoid making themselves bigger in a way they might get hit by the ball. Maybe the language we have is as good as it gets (at least without a two page dissertation), but I’m not sure the language is really doing anything more for us than the the judgment we exercised on deliberate when that was the sole standard.

    one other thought—the ball out of play on the touchline seems like an awfully bad miss love by the AR. That seems a call I would expect a much less expensive AR to get right live—unless someone was blocking his view, which I didn’t see in the video.
     
  22. incognitoind

    incognitoind Member

    Apr 8, 2015
    With the ball in the middle of the field and the AR down near the goal line, you’d be asking a lot for the AR to get this from the side when the referee gets to look from the front
     
  23. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    huh? I’m talking about the ball over the touch line. The AR is looking straight down the line- and unlike many of the lines many of us have, it’s a crisp we’ll marked line.
     
  24. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    #24 StarTime, Sep 11, 2022
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2022
    I don’t think Kessler’s arm position was quite as natural as you’re making it sound, but I am also struggling to rationalize the way handballs have been interpreted (at least by PRO; I don’t watch enough other leagues to say anything about them for sure) against the changes made in the 2021-22 LOTG. It kind of feels like they’ve gradually slipped back into calling it almost exactly the same as they did in previous editions of the LOTG, ignoring the inclusion of the new language that “A player is considered to have made their body unnaturally bigger when the position of their hand/arm is not a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation.” Ultimately, “bigger” is a lot less subjective and controversial than trying to actually work with that “unnatural” definition. The result is that defends aren’t actually getting the benefits the IFAB intended when they made this change.

    I don’t really understand what the point of the IFAB adding new language like this to the LOTG if leagues are going to just ignore it at their own will. There have been a number of changes like that where it feels like something maybe changes for a few months and then leagues decide they don’t like it and just ignore it forever.
     

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