2022 MLS Conference Finals Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by A66C, Oct 27, 2022.

  1. A66C

    A66C Member

    N/A
    United States
    Jan 3, 2022
    10/30/22

    Los Angeles FC vs Austin FC
    Banc of California Stadium (3PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Rubiel Vazquez
    VAR: Timothy Ford
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    Philadelphia Union vs New York City FC
    Subaru Park (8PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Kyle Atkins
    AR2: Cameron Blanchard
    4TH: Victor Rivas
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Tom Supple
     
  2. A66C

    A66C Member

    N/A
    United States
    Jan 3, 2022
    With Parker and Atkins in this round, I wonder if Elfath is still the favorite for MLS Cup. Perhaps Unkel gets it?
     
    StarTime repped this.
  3. incognitoind

    incognitoind Member

    Apr 8, 2015
    I don’t think so. Rockwell was AR of the year and Ian Anderson is another popular name and if I was betting, my money would be on them. I never thought that we’d see ish in the final but there just aren’t any other options left. It’s between him and Dickerson and I don’t believe it’s Dickerson. Looks like he’ll get his final without his two ARs
     
    A66C repped this.
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I’d bet a lot of money on that being the trio with Dickerson fourth and Fischer VAR.
     
  5. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Assuming it is Elfath for the final (and I have to think it is), why would PRO/MLS not have him work with his two World Cup ARs? I think the world of both Rockwell and Anderson, but I’d think you want your World Cup team on a big showcase event.
     
  6. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Because Elfaths ARs just aren't that good at anything besides calling offside.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The other guys are essentially tied to Elfath once at the WC, right? So you the extent you’re making a statement for FIFA, Elfath’s appointment is enough.

    And you’re only doing that to some extent anyway. Elfath’s appointment wasn’t guaranteed here. And once it apparently came to fruition, that doesn’t mean better performing ARs should get sidelined. After all, PRO is about MLS and rewarding its best performers. Moreover, Rockwell and Anderson have suffered their own disappointments and to the extent this is some compensation, too, that’s a great thing.
     
    RefIADad, JasonMa and StarTime repped this.
  8. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    Glad to see a successful intervention with independent medical. NFL could take some notes.
     
  9. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    Interesting decision not to go with VAR there and give the pen.
     
  10. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Absolutely very interesting, it’s a huge decision.

    I don’t like the intervention there. I think you can argue that in theory it’s a penalty because the defender does make contact with his studs to the top of the boot, but really it’s mostly glancing contact and pretty much just on the toe. There’s really not very much contact in it, so I think no call is definitely a justifiable decision that I wouldn’t lose any sleep over, and perhaps it’s even the preferred decision (especially given PRO’s demonstrated preference for leniency in the playoffs).
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wouldn't be spiking the football on this one.

    I mean, the referee team failed to identify that as a potential head injury on their own? Play was restarted and he was allowed to stay because... his opponent got cautioned? Yeesh.

    And how does it take until after the assessment and restart to realize more examination was needed? Palacios looked like was knocked out cold. And you could see on the first replay where the contact was.

    So officiating team fails to intervene. Medical let's play restart and then intervenes. And holds him for, a minute? I don't know, man. If this was a star in the NFL we'd be hearing about how poorly the NFL handled it--particularly if he got injured again. As it stands, I'll be interested in hearing about Palacios condition in the coming days.

    As for the refereeing side of things, it would never happen here in this moment and this match, but... how strong is the argument for SFP red? It's a late shoulder charge into the head. I don't see much mitigation besides "it's a playoff match."
     
    JasonMa, RedStar91 and GlennAA11 repped this.
  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That's a 100% penalty and a yellow card in any UEFA match right now. And I'm talking about via VAR as well.

    To the extent it's okay because it's consistent with a line set in the playoffs so far, well, I get what @StarTime is saying. But the flip side of that is we have seen VAR used for handballs that, well, most people would be fine with letting go.

    This was a foul. And it's instructed in most major worldwide competitions as a caution. This is where the use of VAR loses its credibility, in my opinion. You can't say you're correcting clear errors and then not correct them because the stakes are too high or the moment too big. "Clear and obvious" shouldn't be situational. The more I've watched it, the more surprised I am that it wasn't given.
     
  13. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Is Penso injured? Is he too strict?
     
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    No and no. But apparently down the stretch he had a very high missed KMI rate--I've both heard that and, well, he did have a lot of VAR interventions in the final couple months. If there's anything else at play, I don't know. But his playoff participation was limited to the VAR booth and I think based on how he performed overall this season and which matches he was given, that is a relatively big surprise.
     
    GlennAA11 repped this.
  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  16. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    The league mandates that play be a potential red card in the regular season and Chapman can't even bother to produce a yellow.

    So ridiculous.
     
    StarTime repped this.
  17. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Not that I think it should be a red card, but that's an expected yellow card across the game now.
     
    StarTime repped this.
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I don't know what to say there. I thought he was waiting for an early "check complete" so he could confidently show the yellow. Given what was demanded this year in the regular season, no card simply isn't credible.
     
    StarTime repped this.
  19. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    We all know that teams scout their referees, and this game definitely feels like the result of two teams who know, through empirical research, that prison rules would be in effect.

    I’ll admit, it’s been fun to watch. And it’s probably exactly what Chapman, PRO, and MLS wanted. But it feels so wrong to me. Everything that PRO worked on during the season, out the window…
     
    TyffaneeSue and GlennAA11 repped this.
  20. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #20 SouthRef, Oct 30, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2022
    Boy that offside decision was close but I think they got it right

    EDIT: none of the available angles were good but nothing approaching C&O error by any means. Would have liked a better camera angle but nothing to send down from what I saw
     
  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think it was all that close. The broadcast opted to freeze the play well after the header. The defender's trail leg seemed to be more than keeping the goalscorer onside--the penalty spot was a pretty good reference. Maybe the angles are deceiving me, but I'd say he's on by a good margin.

    Regardless, always impressive to get that call right in real time. Whether it's close or not with the benefit of replay, it certainly looks much different in real-time.
     
  22. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  23. USSF REF

    USSF REF Guest

    I'll just say that when I wrote it, I was pleased that the independent medical was willing to swallow their pride and get involved, even if they were late.

    That said, I posted it while the check was ongoing and should have waited. I have my concerns in hindsight as to why the player was allowed to return so quickly after he appeared to be lying on the ground motionless for as long as he was.

    So, I probably was premature in posting this.
     
    JasonMa and MassachusettsRef repped this.
  24. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Nicely done, both of you!
     
    RefIADad repped this.

Share This Page