ITV claim that VAR had to go with the on-field decision of offside for Wolves disallowed goal, because none of the cameras at Anfield could determine whether Matheus Nunes was in an offside position. If that's the case, that's absolutely ridiculous.— Alex Richards (@AA_Richards) January 7, 2023
As far as I know, VAR is NOT used in the FA Cup because many smaller grounds in the lower divisions do not have it. There were two offside goals in the Sheff Wednesday-Newcastle match yesterday (one for each side).
"As the FA set out in January 2020, VAR is only licensed to be used at Premier League grounds in the third, fourth and fifth rounds of the FA Cup, but in every match from the quarter-final stage onwards." This is the top Google hit for "is there VAR in the FA Cup."
Liverpool vs. Wolves Referee: Madley, Andrew Assistant Referee: Lennard, Harry Assistant Referee: Hopton, Nick Fourth Official: Coote, David Observer: Devine, James Video Assistant Referee: Dean, Michael Additional Video Assistant Referee: Bennett, Simon
Footage from the fans show that he was probably two yards onside. But the AR called offside and there was no camera angle that showed the attacker.
That’s what I’m thinking happened. AR pops flag as he’s not sure, figured VAR can get it right. New standard right? Oops, missing camera angle.
No, no, no. ARs are instructed to—and evaluated on—get the call right. No AR at that level is thinking “I’m not sure so I’ll just flag it.” The AR here was certainly sure—he was just sure of something that was incorrect. It happens to all of us.
And FWIW, this is the fan angle that I found and to me, this does not prove anything. Unless somebody has a better fan angle.
Link? I can go frame-by-frame and find the correct moment . EDIT - got it. https://imgur.com/a/X0W1ftl Clear mistake. Juventus vs. Salernitana reloaded!!
Wrexham v Coventry, two questions (one directly relevant, one somewhat hypothetical) regarding the penalty/red card, which is at 3:06 below: 1) Does everyone have a red card? Maybe I'm becoming soft in the era of "every handled shot on goal is a yellow card" but... why red over yellow? Is it the proximity? Because that doesn't seem like a great answer. Is it the deliberate nature? Because while that maybe satisfies the spirit of the game, it's not really an argument in th Laws. Does the referee believe there is a high likelihood of the ball going in the net? I am not here declaring I wouldn't go red, but... I guess I'm looking for some sort of calculus whereby the yellow must turn to red and I'm not convinced this is it. The keeper does seem like he gets wrong-footed so maybe this was a certain goal, but... he also was in perfect position when the ball was struck so which of those two factors do we take into account? I could talk myself in circles on this one. 2) More in the hypothetical realm, let's say for a minute the ball struck red #32's hand (you can't really tell if it did--it seems quite possible it did, but there's no affirmative evidence either) before he shot and this was a VAR match. If the red card is given for denying a goal... how does VAR handle things? Any goal would be invalid because #32 could not score directly from it. So the red card gets annulled but the penalty stays? I can't think of a reason why the penalty would be annulled because even though the accidental handling occurs first, it's not an offence until the ball enters the net (so it's not really an offence here at all, which raises the question of whether or not the red card even needs to get annulled). We had a similar hypothetical red card/VAR question in a thread a few weeks ago, but this one is a slightly different twist.
I guess the answer to your first question is really distance of the defender in relation to the goal line The handling occurs on the six. How close does the defender have to be to the goal line for it to be DGH regardless if the keeper is on the line? Obviously if it's on the penalty spot it's not close enough, but is the six close enough?
Here is a better view. (14:32 mark) When a player deliberately slaps a ball down to keep it out of the net, he shouldn't be bailed out because the keeper might have saved it. Ponzo reached to stop a ball that he thought was going in.
That’s a fine opinion to have, but also contrary to the Laws. If the keeper might have saved it, then it’s quite literally an argument for a yellow. The question on these sort of plays is how to calibrate the “might have saved” versus the “near obvious goal.” I also think it’s somewhat noteworthy that two obviously partisan Wrexham announcers thought the referee got this wrong. Not that that should matter in a vacuum, but it does speak to the question of whether or not this is an expected decision. But if it wasn’t going in, then it’s not a red. Like in a similar scenario if it was certain the shot was going wide, you wouldn’t (couldn’t, more accurately) give red even if the defender thought he was stopping a goal. So what’s in his mind here really isn’t supposed to matter. I could see it coming into account on a very marginal decision but that brings us back to the main question of “what is the dividing line?” I guess I’m asking a very specific question here: is anyone aware of the distinction in FIFA or UEFA instruction between DGH handling and SPA handling? How do those bodies instruct referees in calibrating the likelihood of a keeper making a save?
It can’t just be distance, can it? I mean, we know it’s not literally just that. Because if a keeper is out of position then distance is much less relevant. But in scenarios where the keeper is appropriately or customarily positioned… is “distance” the best we’ve got? If it is, yeah, the “how close is close enough” answer probably needs more fleshing out because I’ve never heard it.
For scenarios where the keeper is in position (i.e. not an empty net), I don't see how distance isn't really the only factor you can consider. I guess you can consider the force or power of the shot? We would all agree that if the defender was maybe half way between the six and the goal line that a red card is slam dunk even if the keeper is in position? Right? If not, then you can't get sent off for handling a goal bound shot if the keeper is in position unless you're on the goal line as a defender? I guess long way of saying I think probably the six is about the furthest you can be away from the goal line and get sent off for a blocking a goal bound shot even if keeper is in position.
I agree with your thinking in both questions. 1) Was red shown on the field here? If so, I’m quite surprised by that - this seems like a mostly textbook yellow card to me. Though I will add that we never get a replay looking along the line of the shot - maybe the referee could see that the shot was clearly going into the net in even though we can’t tell from the given camera angle. 2) I say your thinking is absolutely correct, the VAR should recommend a review to annul to red card but maintain the penalty kick in this hypothetical. As for what could actually happen, if any VAR and referee would actually stick their necks out to make this very confusing, but absolutely correct, ruling, that’s another question in itself. I’d like to be confident that the answer would be yes but I’m not so sure, I think most VARs would take the “easy way out” and find some excuse to call the first handball an offense even if it isn’t one.
There was an interview with Barkey recently on Check Complete podcast where he also said something along the same lines that the shirt-pull/tug, chest-level stuff rarely gets a second look, unless it's extremely obvious, because it's too subjective. Who started pulling who? How much force? Was it enough? Etc.
No no no no no. The fact that we are rationally arguing both sides here makes it pretty clear it wasn't clear error. You even state correctly, "maybe the referee could see that the shot was clearly going into the net." VAR should never get involved in this particular decision.
He’s talking about the hypothetical MR posed where there was an accidental HB by the attacker who took the shot, not what actually happened. In the hypothetical, the VAR absolutely should get involved, as it can’t be DOGSO if the goal couldn’t be scored. As for red/yellow on the real play, the R had a much better angle than the replays we have, so I find it hard to criticize. As for considering the cynical nature of a play, while it is not a literal factor, I definitely think it should be a tiebreaker on orange situations. The whole point of DOGSO is to stop cynical plays. Seems we should at least be able to consider whether a play was cynical when it is a close decision on DOGSO.
Straight red was shown, yes. And your comment about "textbook yellow card" is the problem in my eyes. I think some very smart and/or high-level people look at this and agree with you, while others in the same boat (such as the referee) obviously think it's a clear straight red card. Fully stipulating there will always be some level of subjectivity on a call like this, figuring out what the dividing line is supposed to be and what considerations go into that decision seems kind of important given this is more or less the most consequential call (red + PK) a referee can make. Leaving it up to the whims of a given referee seems like a mistake.
I will answer this as a grassroots referee who has not received instruction on this, just going off what I learned and how I understood this. To me, this is a definitive red card, I was absolutely not shocked at all, the ball looks like it has a very high probability of going into the net. I actually didn't even think about the possibility that this is not red, because of where the ball was headed. So I appreciate that your posts made me think about potential SPA in here as well, and just judging the likelihood of the ball being saved by the GK as a valid question.
Interesting comment from Mark Halsey about the Arsenal match last week. I appreciate the comments on not calling the handball but to completely ignore everything else that went on during this match seems somewhat dishonest. He also claims this is due to direction from Webb. I take everything he says with skepticism of course, but it's interesting to read.
The idea that anyone could watch the EPL and MLS and then come to the conclusion that Webb's arrival would inherently lead toward less VAR intervention just blows my mind. Of course, the chances Halsey actually watches MLS are near nil, so that makes sense. Halsey is out here writing that VAR is "too intrusive" in the EPL. When almost every single complaint about VAR in England, outside the offside decisions, is "why didn't VAR get involved?" There are absolute dinosaurs engaging in referee analysis right now. Luckily, Webb was hatched after the asteroid hit.
Matchweeks 19 and 20 Fulham - Chelsea Referee: David Coote. Assistants: Lee Betts, Timothy Wood. Fourth official: Stuart Attwell. VAR: John Brooks. Assistant VAR: Natalie Aspinall. Aston Villa - Leeds Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Jarred Gillett. VAR: Andy Madley. Assistant VAR: Lee Betts. Man Utd - Man City Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Darren Cann. Fourth official: Robert Jones. VAR: Michael Oliver. Assistant VAR: Nick Hopton. Brighton - Liverpool Referee: Darren England. Assistants: Dan Robathan, Wade Smith. Fourth official: Tim Robinson. VAR: Neil Swarbrick. Assistant VAR: Timothy Wood. Everton - Southampton Referee: John Brooks. Assistants: Adam Nunn, James Mainwaring. Fourth official: Graham Scott. VAR: Lee Mason. Assistant VAR: Stuart Burt. Nottingham Forest - Leicester Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Constantine Hatzidakis, Neil Davies. Fourth official: Samuel Barrott. VAR: Peter Bankes. Assistant VAR: Nick Greenhalgh. Wolves - West Ham Referee: Simon Hooper. Assistants: Adrian Holmes, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Craig Pawson. VAR: David Coote. Assistant VAR: Richard West. Brentford - Bournemouth Referee: Jarred Gillett. Assistants: Simon Long, Harry Lennard. Fourth official: Andy Madley. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Simon Bennett. Chelsea - Crystal Palace Referee: Peter Bankes. Assistants: Eddie Smart, Nick Greenhalgh. Fourth official: Darren Bond. VAR: Michael Salisbury. Assistant VAR: Simon Long. Newcastle - Fulham Referee: Robert Jones. Assistants: Lee Betts, Ian Hussin. Fourth official: Graham Scott. VAR: Mike Dean. Assistant VAR: Adrian Holmes. Tottenham - Arsenal Referee: Craig Pawson. Assistants: Marc Perry, Scott Ledger. Fourth official: Darren England. VAR: Paul Tierney. Assistant VAR: Constantine Hatzidakis. Crystal Palace - Man Utd Referee: John Brooks. Assistants: Adam Nunn, Nick Hopton. Fourth official: Stuart Attwell. VAR: Neil Swarbrick. Assistant VAR: Neil Davies. Man City - Tottenham Referee: Simon Hooper. Assistants: Adrian Holmes, Timothy Wood. Fourth official: David Coote. VAR: Darren England. Assistant VAR: Matthew Wilkes.
"Big" matches: Liverpool - Man City (Community Shield): Pawson Chelsea - Tottenham: Taylor Man Utd - Liverpool: Oliver Everton - Liverpool: Taylor Man Utd - Arsenal: Tierney Arsenal - Tottenham: Taylor Man City - Man Utd: Oliver Arsenal - Liverpool: Oliver Liverpool - Man City: Taylor Man Utd - Tottenham: Hooper Chelsea - Arsenal: Oliver Liverpool - Tottenham: A. Madley Arsenal - Newcastle: A. Madley Man Utd - Man City: Attwell Tottenham - Arsenal: Pawson Distribution of these matches in the EPL: Oliver: 4 Taylor: 4 A. Madley: 2 Attwell: 1 Hooper: 1 Pawson: 1 Tierney: 1 The Oliver-Taylor domination is not as strong as earlier in the season. They are human after all.