[QUOTE="MassachusettsRef, post: 40702880, member: 14366" C) Everyone is focused on Tuchel and Conte later in the match, but I have absolutely no clue (well, I have a clue--more on that in a second) why they weren't just sent off here. The following acts of misconduct are sending off offences for technical area personnel: - deliberately leaving the technical area to act in a provocative or inflammatory manner - entering the opposing technical area in an aggressive or confrontational manner - physical or aggressive behavior towards an opposing... team official The technical areas were so close to each other that it's hard to tell if Conte entered Tuchel's area or if Tuchel left his area. Regardless of which one is true (as one of them is certainly true) Conte is guilty of 2 or 3 of these and Tuchel is guilty of 1 or 2 of these. We have somewhere between 3 and 5 reasons why 2 coaches should be dismissed, yet they both get perfunctory yellow cards. Top officials resort to the yellow card here because...? Well, because it's there. This is what you get when you move to carding bench personnel. A bunch of yellow cards that don't calm anything and the ignoring of behavior that should lead to dismissal. [/QUOTE] I don't think their lack of dismissal is down to the introduction of carding coaches. Since I've been watching the Premier League (almost 18+ years), the tolerance and lenience that officials have afforded technical staff personnel is so drastically different compared to what you see in the rest of European leagues or UEFA competitions. It's so drastic. They have always indulged coaches to such an extreme. Mourniho and Conte and others have done stuff that would get dismissals without hesitation in Spain or Italy and I just don't know why it's different in the EPL. Look at these two examples below. No red cards and just a talking too, if that. In the US we are thought, you behave like this you are sent off. Coaches are expected to be held to a higher standard than players, and EPL referees just tolerate it and indulge.
For PGMOL: 68min: Romero-Havertz play on is a judgement call, not in the same APP anyway, too long (47secs); no foul on Jorginho is correct; no offside on Richarlison is correct, attacker is standing too far away from the goalkeeper, the ball is too far away from the goalkeeper for active offside; well... 77min: Tuchel probably should have been SYC-ed, but was a judgement call for the officials, who determined that his actions were not provocative enough to merit being sent off, rather in celebration; judgement call +94min: clear red card and missed intervention by Dean And the red cards c.FT for both managers were correct/justified. Also: - SPA at the Nottingham Forest vs. West Ham penalty was correct, no DOGSO, goalkeeper was there (@MassachusettsRef point about what you permit, you promote is so relevant here) - no DOGSO at Southampton vs. Leeds was right, indeed no foul at all, ball was played, attacker is only felled by tripping over the ball himself; hmmm... - no YC for Vardy dive is correct, correct intervention - John Brooks badly mishandled an incident at the end of Wolves vs. Fulham, they expected Mitrović to be sent off for reckless challenge + aggressive behaviour, will upload a clip of this shortly So a bit to discuss there I think!
Couple more things from the Guardian this morning: There can be no future review of the hair pull because Dean ruled it unworthy of immediate punishment. Officials said Mendy’s body language (he lashed out at his defenders) factored into the decision about the OS! So, that says to me if Mendy points at Richarlson, they make the call! Taylor’s history with Chelsea includes the most yellow cards given by him to a team, and several contentious decisions involving red cards.
So Man United v Liverpool has to be Oliver, right? On top of Oliver having a midweek game this week (making the Monday assignment more sensible), Taylor doesn’t seem tenable now.
Maybe Tierney but he already has his fair share of issues with Klopp and Liverpool. If you give Oliver half of the "big games" this year, eventually he's going to have his howler too. Who are #4 and 5 in the PL? Pawson and Attwell? Because those guys are going to need to start getting some of this high profile matches.
Yeah I think Pawson could have the game. But Oliver working midweek speaks to him getting Sunday or Monday anyway. Also, Taylor is likely to work midweek next week, anyway, so in theory he wouldn’t have got this match anyway. I could see him in Bournemouth, honestly.
I think I know what happened….Conte was moving towards his supporters and players to celebrate, Tuchel was storming towards the 4th official to protest the non-call, and they kinda met in the middle. I don’t think either manager initially intended a confrontation, but you know why happens when men feel they’ve been disrespected…
I don't know if Anthony Taylor is getting worse in England. Any other PL ref intent on keeping 11v11 and both managers in a big game could/would have done so. And VAR could still have missed the hair pull (the only missed KMI in my opinion). Are we sure Oliver, for example, would have "taken care of business" and red carded the initial Conte/Tuchel confrontation? I doubt it. How would public perception treat throwing out two of the biggest managers in the game when players on the pitch get "managed" out of similar shouting/handbags all the time? It would be Juventus levels of scrutiny all over again. Look, fact of the matter is every referee seems worse in domestic competition. Ask Spanish fans, they hate Lahoz and Hernandez. France hates Turpin. Germany never respected Brych. And on and on. I'm not sure if it's the fact that UEFA refs only see a given team once or twice per year, or UEFA has stricter standards for what they want dealt with and what they want managed...but that's why I think there's a perception that a referee is "better" outside of domestic competition.
I think this is right, but the technical areas are so close to begin with and you can't really see their feet when the confrontation occurs. Conte definitely left his area. I'm just not sure if Tuchel also left his area and they met in that neutral zone or if Conte left his area and entered Tuchel's area as Tuchel moved to the extreme end of it.
Good post. When you stop, step back and think about things in totality, Mike Dean not having the hair pull as a clear red is the most baffling thing of all. Mike Dean isn't sending someone off for a hair pull? I'm not sure if it's some England culture thing or if it's VAR instruction, but it's bizarre. Everything else? Yeah, I think it could/would have happened with any English official. And given Taylor's management skills, the knock-on effects probably would have been a lot worse with anyone else besides Oliver.
Do you know if PGMOL ever consults UEFA/FIFA/IFAB on certain points of instruction? I know that on very controversial decisions, PRO will reach out to FIFA/IFAB. It's rare, but it happens. I'm not saying that this incident falls into that category, but I am saying that PRO works to take the global line on offside decisions. I'm wondering if PGMOL does, too, or just has their own interpretation of Law 11. Well, at least that's a relief.
There were 8 to 12 easy fouls that get called in UCL/Bundesliga/Serie A. But in this whole idea to "let the game flow" we get this blanket ignoring of clear careless fouls in the PL. Most of time it works but when it doesn't things can get really ugly. I'm not putting the foul selection on Taylor because he's doing what he's told to do, but he calls many of those fouls in UEFA and the rest of his tools allow him to be a very good UEFA referee.
If PGMOL were smart, they'd publicly suspend Dean for a game or games. I think that's damn near inexcusable. Plus would take heat off Taylor, because everyone think it is his fault right now.
If Dean sends down clear violent conduct then Taylor gets to send off Romero, Chelsea win 2-1, and he's getting 10% of the heat that he's getting today. Before VAR we had the adage that referees commit career suicide and assistant referees commit career murder. That role has been shifted over to the var. I'm going to guess Mike Dean was penciled in to be the VAR on a large number of these big games. And after the first one he's already buried England's number one referee in a s***storm.
I think something is wrong with this sentence from the article. Taylor officiated more Premier League matches (28) than any other referee last season, and the retirements of Mike Dean and Martin Atkinson last season mean that Andre Marriner and Michael Oliver are the only active referees in the PGMOL’s top-tier “select group” who have officiated more matches in the top flight. Andre Marriner and top-tier don't belong together!!!
The Select Group is the top-tier of English referees. Andre Marriner is in the Select Group. Therefore, Andre Marriner is in the top-tier of English referees. Logic.
There is a lot of truth in your posts, but those referees would never tolerate the antics on the touch line that Oliver and Taylor tolerate in their games amongst other things. We can't keep excusing referees missing easy and obvious decisions. There would be no complaints if Tuchel and Conte were tossed after the first incident. Lahoz might have gone over and had a word/carded Tuchel and Conte after the first fracas, but after that they are gone. I mean we've seen Lahoz and Turpin toss Guardiola and Simeone for far less in European games.
And Tierney is on today's match at Anffeld. Let's hope he does better after last week's horror show for him. It feels odd to say but actually Attwell did a good job in his match. But can he keep it up all season? PH
There was a time when Andre Marriner was a very good referee. But that time has passed as age and injuries have caught up with him. He probably should have retired along with the other over-50s but I expect losing five referees all at once might have been difficult to manage. I would be surprised if this was not his last season. PH
Like running down the sideline to celebrate a big goal? Happens all the time. Simeone, Klopp, Mourinho, etc, etc. Can't agree with this....you know everyone would be questioning why they got red instead of yellow, did the referee really need to throw out two of the biggest managers in the game in the biggest tv game of the biggest tv league in the world, etc. I went back and researched....Guardiola was after the match when he directly insulted Lahoz, and Simeone was after he called Turpin a "son of a bitch". Pretty sure either Taylor or Oliver would have done the same in those situations. I'm not sure how you think abusive language directly at the referee crew are "far less" than two managers getting in each others faces.
No they wouldn't. Managers get tossed all the time in other domestic leagues and it's barely a story. Mourinho got tossed countless times in Serie A or La Liga and it was a non story because managers getting thrown out of games are just part of the game and it has almost no effect on the game. There was a huge outcry Italy the one time he didn't get thrown out. He made a hugely inflammatory gesture when he made the "handcuffs" gesture after a decision went against Inter. He basically was saying that Serie A was rigged against Inter. Instead, we now have a bunch of memes due to that farcical handshake circus at the end. Guardiola was sent off at half-time for demonstrating/complaining to Lahoz after a series of calls went against Man City. I don't think they would have because have they ever produced a red card for dissent or abusive language in the EPL in their entire careers. Guardiola was sent-off for demonstrating/confronting Lahoz at the center circle at half-time after a series of decisions went against Man City. That's a huge stretch say that Taylor or Oliver would have done the same in those situations considering I don't ever recall them producing a red card for dissent or abusive language in their 200+ matches in the EPL. Or EPL managers are so much more polite than Simeone and Guardiola and have never called Taylor or Oliver those words above or "c**t," "w***er", "cheat," etc. or any of the other countless magic words that would warrant a send-off by a manager. If Taylor or Oliver ever do in an Everton vs. Liverpool match than I would buy them sending off an EPL manager for calling them a son of a bitch.