We're all on the same page here. The same issue applies, by the way, if you're Borussia Dortmund or River Plate or Kashima Antlers or Dinamo Zagreb. There's nothing unusual here........................ Every young player around the world is evaluating their path to first team soccer at the highest level possible. Every club is trying to nail down their best young prospects to contracts for as long as possible. There's this push and pull going on everywhere. We're building our pathway in this country, so some avenues for advancement are incomplete. We're light years ahead of where we were 15 years ago, and we'll make lots of advancements in the next 15 years.
I'm going to give my first qualifying team prediction. 05's are noted in parentheses. GK: Brady, Dewsnup DF: Reynolds, Duenas, Leone, Prince, Clarke ('05), Viviani, Baker MF: Craig, Booth, Hot, Baker-Whiting ('05), Sullivan, Torres, Akalu ('05), Thaggard ('05) FW: Sanogo, Toure, Oliva Just missed: Alejandro Cano (CB), Evan Rotundo (CAM) Goalkeeper is easy enough. I'm not sure its realistic that Slonina won't be there, but I don't see it as that close between the top two and him. Reynolds and Duenas give us two natural RB's. I think it's important to have both because Reynolds is also a main alternative at LB. Viviani is the top option at LB. I'm not sure there's another good option besides him. We have a few other defenders who can fill in there, if needed. I like the CB options, but it still wouldn't be good if Leone opts for Mexico. I found it hard to leave off Alejandro Cano, but a player like Cody Baker provides more positional versatility for the last spot. Central midfield picks itself. Craig and Booth as the starters, Hot and Baker-Whiting as the back ups. Both can back up at either position, and play similarly, but they are better than the other options, so I can't justify taking someone with another style of play. I'd say Hot is the option to use if its a big game. Baker-Whiting for a less important game. There's a lot of firepower in attack. I wanted to find a spot for Rotundo, but couldn't. I don't view him as the top natural #10, so he'd only be a back up. There are multiple #10 options, and I didn't see a viable option to leave off. The only caveat I'd add is that if Sanogo isn't an option, Thaggard becomes an option at forward and that gives Rotundo a spot on the team, but I'm operating as if he is because he was supposed to be at the most recent camp. Brady Reynolds-Leone-Clarke-Viviani Craig-Booth Akalu-Sullivan-Thaggard Sanogo
Here is mine GK: Gabe Slonina, Chris Brady, Jeff Dewsnup For the GK’s there’s a clear top three in this age group. Slonina or Brady will start but I’m excited about all three RB: Erik Dueñas, Nati Clarke Erik is the best right back in the 04 pool and Nati is a freak talent who I think will end up becoming a right back because of his elite combination of speed, skill on the ball, 1v1 defending, and I don’t think Nati will end up being very tall so RB fits him perfectly. CB: Antonio Leone, Brandan Craig, Nigel Prince Tony Leone is the best CB in the pool and is a lock if he chooses the USA. I interviewed Brandon last week and Brandan told me he prefers to play as a CB and his favorite quality in his game is his ability to distribute out of the back. Brandan has to learn how to defend better but I think this kid an auto start with Tony. Nigel Prince is a beast and should get a look for that backup spot. LB: Tristian Viviani, Caleb Wiley Tristian is just a good player and the best LB prospect in the pool. Caleb Wiley has been okay in his USL appearances and looked solid in his last u17 call up so I’ll give him the nod. 6: Allan Rodriguez, Kenan Hot Allan is the best 6 in the 04 pool. His defensive prowess and composure on the ball is superb. I worry about his athleticism long term but I think he’ll excel for the ynt like he did when he captained this group at concacaf u15’s. Kenan is a player who can play the 6 and 8 very well and is a safe plug and play. Should either of these guys be hurt then Reed Baker-Whiting gets the call up. 8: Zach Booth, Aethan Yohannes Zach Booth was the clear standout in the last u17 camp. He is a great player and can control the midfield when played at his best spot. Aethan gets the nod over Rokas Pukstas because Aethan has been able to be training more in the Netherlands than Rokas has and is in a better development environment currently. Those two will be an interesting battle to watch. 10: Evan Rotundo, Victor Valdez I’m as nervous as everyone about Evan’s physical development but this starting spot is his until someone comes in and shows us otherwise. Victor has looked good at every level he’s played at and really impressed me in his last 2 ynt call ups so I’ll give him the backup nod. Winger: Fede Oliva, Leo Torres, Quinn Sullivan I don’t think any of the 05 wingers are able to beat out the 04’s yet and I think these three clearly stand out amongst the wingers in this age group. Fede is the lock to start and I like Leo starting on the left side and Quinn can backup both the wings and the 10. Due to Quinn’s drop in form in the Fall DA season I’m keeping him on the bench for now. 9: Malick Sanogo, Christian Torres Malick is the best player in the 04 age group and if called up is an automatic starter. This kid is a phenomenal prospect and should dominate against concacaf opponents. The backup 9 is a complete toss up because no one else really impresses me here. There are a few 05’s I like but I’m not so sold on any to move them to this spot yet. I almost put Dantouma Toure here but I think Toure will be a bust because his soccer IQ may be the worst in the entire ynt pool. Christian Torres is a safe backup who can get the job done and I’m interested to see how he looks after training for 2 months with Bob Bradley and the LAFC first team. STARTERS GK: Gabe Slonina RB: Erik Dueñas RCB: Brandan Craig LCB: Antonio Leone LB: Tristian Viviani 6: Allan Rodriguez 8: Zach Booth 10: Evan Rotundo 7: Fede Oliva 11: Leo Torres 9: Malick Sanogo
He’s completely 50/50 currently. From what it sounds like he likes Mexico’s style of play a little more but he has more personal connections to the USA which makes a big difference
Sounds like he is leaning towards the US, just how he was responding during the interview on Knocking it Around...but maybe it's wishful thinking.
We kinda got the sense after it that he’s leaning towards the USA but I think he’s going to accept every call up he gets and make up his mind at the last opportunity which he should tbh Also I’m totally unbiased but that video was great
Brandan Craig and Quinn Sullivan both started for the unionII this past weekend against a very good Pittsburgh team, the unionII had 2 16 yr old and 4 17 yr old boys Start for them in the game. The union is giving these boys a lot of experience playing with the USL team
If the soccer establishment in this country makes Clarke into a RB, I think I'm done thinking we'll ever produce an elite CB. They ruined the last one because he wasn't 6'4 and a tronco.
How tall do we think Nati Clarke is? Just guessing based on the film I've seen, I'd say he 5'8 tops. I know hes only 15, but based on how physically developed his body looks, I would be very surprised if he grows too much from here. He doesn't need to be 6'4, but at 5'8 (or even if he gets to 5'10, which doesn't seem likely) he's just not a top level CB prospect.
That’s why I think he could end up becoming a RB. But it’s not height that makes me think he could dominate that position. Nati’s dribbling is excelling and he is also lightning fast. His height will just be the determining factor for whether he becomes an amazing center back or right back, he’s on track currently to do both
I don’t know. He’s about average height for a CB in his age group. How tall would that be? It’s too hard for me to estimate. If he’s 5’8 at 18, you can move his position. Right now you don’t change the position of the best CB prospect in the whole country because of speculation about his eventual height. You lower his ceiling at age 15, if you do so. Why can’t we wait further down the road to see how tall he grows? What if he grows to 6’2? We don’t know. It’s complete speculation at this point that he won’t continue to grow much the next few years. I’d hope we don’t see happen to Clarke what has happened to Araujo. I partially blame Araujo for what’s happened with his career. He chose to sign with LAG, but IMO Brian Kleiban’s legacy is lowering Araujo’s ceiling because he didn’t think a 5’10 player could play CB. Coaching in this country has a long way to go.
I realize this is probably not the right thread to say this, but guys like Araujo and Akanyinge are going to struggle to breakout at the highest level. In the old days they could have become exceptional sweeper backs but today’s modern game of “flat 4” require center backs to win a lot of aerial challenges. Not only that, but moving them to right back probably doesn’t work either because many of the new breed of outside backs are converted offensive guys (Nick Lima and Tommy Thompson come to mind). The game evolves. Hell, a guy like Mesut Ozil can hardly get on the field anymore. Small guys in the middle of the field get bullied in MLS. I’m a big fan of Frankie Amaya, but I don’t expect him to lead Cincy to any kind of glory.
I want Nati Clarke as RB for the u17 cycle because of positional need and Nati having the right tools for the job. But if he does still end up growing then he should be the RCB for the 2025 u20 cycle who have an excellent RB option in Grayson Dettoni. But The u17's best RB is probably Erik Duenas which is not exactly a fantastic option and it gets even worse with Justin Reynolds who is a good RB but not a ynt level player and is similar in level to Sebastian Anderson.
Ozil has good size for the position (5'11). His problem is that his work-rate is extremely low. He simply will not put in any work for the team. I think this is an important discussion though, and it extends beyond CB. I think it also is a big issue with how players are developed at CF. Players such as AOC (5'10), Ferreira (5'8), Toure (5'8) are supposedly too short to play CF. Tim Weah isn't considered too short for CF (6'0), but he's considered to not have the hold up game for the position. I think all of this is antiquated thinking. Pep Guardiola has used fullbacks/central midfielders at CB like Alaba, Walker, Kimmich and Fernandinho. Alaba is 5'11, Walker is 5'10, Kimmich and Fernandinho are 5'9. If all you are going to do is bunker and boot the ball down the field, it's true that you'll need players that are better in the air, but I'd rather not play with troncos like Gonzalez, Miazga, Zimmerman, Goodson (I know he's retired but point stands) that are only good for their ability to win these physical duels. If we want to compete at the top level eventually, we need CB who can move and move the ball up the field. At CF, we need more who can threaten CB's athletically, tactically, technically and creatively, and less who only win long balls and hold off defenders. What I agree with you on this is that these smaller CB's like Akanyirige and Araujo are simply not the same level of prospect if they are moved to fullback. As you said, most of the top level fullbacks are converted wingers. As talented offensively as someone like Araujo might be at CB with his ability to bypass pressure with stepping up with his mobility or hitting passes of all ranges, he simply doesn't show the offensive skills to be an elite offensive fullback in the middle/final third. Thats probably because he was never an offensive player in his younger years so he doesn't have the experience honing his skills in that part of the pitch or he wasn't that talented in those parts of the field, so he was moved further back on the field. It's similar at CF. If you are going to tell me that AOC or Ferreira will never get a chance to play CF full-time because of their height, I think we need to start discussing these players as lower caliber players. They simply do not have the requisite skills to play winger or CAM at a high level. If Akanyirige or Araujo are RB's, they are lower caliber players. I don't think its fair to Clarke to put him into this category. He's not undersized now. I think its unfair to suggest that because he's strong and facially looks a little older (a common stereotype of players born in Africa) that he's an early-maturer physically. For all we know, he becomes 6'2, and this is a moot point. This is also why I advocate we not start moving players from the position where their game fits for size reasons until we actually see them physically mature, and see if their size can play at a certain position. I also think it's important that thinking from coaches evolves in this country. I'm certainly not suggesting we use 5'7 CB's or 5'5 CF's, but there are some very successful players in world football that are considered less than the average height for these positions. Some of the best coaches in the world also have successfully included tactical wrinkles where they use fullbacks or defensive midfielders at CB or wingers or attacking midfielders at CF. We need to evolve beyond antiquated thinking that has seen our NT thoroughly outclassed talent-wise every time we face any decent team.
I'm not against a player playing a certain position because of a team need for a certain set of games. That cannot hurt a player. I'm against a determination that a player needs to switch positions to a position where they have a lower ceiling before full physical maturity due to pure speculation. I'm also against a player who is slightly undersized (Araujo at 5'10) having his position moved full-time once he's physically matured because of antiquated thinking that all our CB's need to be average or above-average height for the position. KHF is 5'7. Clearly he cannot play CB professionally at that height. Alexis Velela ('98) was a U-17 regular at CB that clearly would not be a CB in the pro game. He's 5'7. However, I think we need to give all these players where the height conundrum is an inch or two (Araujo, Akanyirige) a chance to play CB until they prove that they cannot. At that point, you change their position for the longevity of their career. We need to try to maximize the ceilings of all our players. It's similar to what you see with baseball. You keep all players who start as SS's or CF's at those positions until they prove they can't play those positions. You keep SP's as SP's until they prove that they need to move to the bullpen. It's important to maximize the ceiling and value of your players.
When talking about CB's I think you have to also factor in their other physical attributes and not just their height. Some have big jumping ability, quick feet, and bigger frames. Someone can be a little shorter if they have some other attributes
Once a player gets to 5’10 then I think there’s potential but it’s still not ideal. Araujo is 5’9 and is starting to look like he’s going to be a right back
Thank you! This is an important thing I forgot to mention, but meant to. I think a player like Julian Araujo is really athletic, despite only being 5'10. He jumps really high for a player his height and is physically strong for a player his height. He plays a little bigger than he's listed.
Araujo is 5'10, according to his US Soccer page. The listing during the U-20 WC in May of 2019 that was provided to FIFA had him as 5'10. LAG listed him at 5'9 when he initially signed, but that was 5-6 months before he even turned 18. It's quite possible he grew an inch (or even half an inch due to rounding) in those months. This is also a highly semantical discussion.
The conversation being had at the moment is exactly why scouting is steadily moving away from looking at younger players from a specific position standpoint. The focus should be on traits, be it physical, tactical or technical. The players with the highest upside will have traits that are important in multiple positions. Araujo is a good example of this. He is quite athletic and some people may think this is a reason he could play at CB. Just as was said above, he plays bigger than his size. On the flip side, his athleticism could also be the exact thing that makes coaches want to see him at RB, a position that is typically filled with a more athletic players than CB. There are certainly other traits that he has that are more CB oriented than RB oriented, but it could just be a matter of preference at his club. We use specific trait profiles for specific positions when projecting players and when a club sees a player that has a trait profile that could fit many positions, they get excited.
I’m a short guy and it pains me to have the height conversation. My heroes growing up were guys like Franco Baresi and Jorge Campos. There is a reason that so few of those guys were playing at that level. You need a coach that will believe in you and is immune to the criticism he will get by playing you. That coach leaves for another team and you are vulnerable. Not only that, but often your success in that position is because of the system and that often changes with the new coaching staff. Add to the fact that the team might have other players on the roster to make up for your specific deficiencies and those players get traded or hurt and you can see why managers tend to favor height in certain positions. Not saying I think it should be that way, but I understand the logic behind it. If I had a son I believed would end up under 6 foot, I would not train or play him at center back or keeper (positions I played growing up). You can be successful until a certain level and then your opportunities start drying up.
Lots of good points being made here. One thing I'll add about locking into positions, is that it's a lot easier moving in some directions than others How many top-class centerbacks started off as midfielders? Lots and lots of them. Hell there's guys playing CB at top teams who were playing as midfielders at age 25. How many guys moved in the other direction? I'm not sure I'm aware of any. Maybe David Luiz was playing something close to a 6 when Chelsea was fielding a back 3 a few years ago. I wouldn't be worried at all about a guy like Nati Clarke if he were being played primarily as a 6 or 8 or even RB depending on the system now, he can always move back to CB if he ends up growing. But playing him as a CB is seriously going to hurt is development if he ends up being too short to play CB. Especially because he's been playing CB at the U15 level, where he could 100% rely on his athleticism. I don't see how that's helping his development.
Is there a reason why this thread isn't stickied? Are we not allowed to have four threads stickied at once?
I don't know when qualifying will be, but this would be my qualifying team. GK: Brady, Dewsnup DF: Reynolds, Duenas, Viviani, Leone, Prince, Clarke ('05) MF: Craig, Booth, Hot, Baker-Whiting ('05), Sullivan, Rotundo, L. Torres, Akalu ('05) Thaggard ('05) FW: Sanogo, Toure, Oliva Starting XI: Brady Reynolds-Leone-Clarke-Viviani Craig-Booth Sullivan L. Torres-Sanogo-Toure Just Missed: Slonina (GK), Cano (CB), Baker (CB/DM), C. Torres (CF) I suspect Slonina will get a spot, but I think Dewsnup is better. Slonina is a fine third option, but I think there's enough separation between Dewsnup and Slonina that Dewsnup should be the back up. Brady has to be the starter. We'd be losing a lot of qualify, if Brady isn't starting, although I think it'll be Slonina. That'll be a storyline to follow. I've dropped Baker to go with one extra attacker for now. Craig can play CB and act as the fourth CB, so Baker's function is a little redundant. The other CM's are all also very versatile in the positions they can play. Cano and Baker would both be close to making the team as CB's though. I can see a scenario where one or both deserve to make it. I really like the midfield. A lot of very versatile options. Booth, Hot, and RBW have similar skillsets. If I was to add another midfielder, I'd probably add Baker as a pure #6. I've added Rotundo from the last list because I think this team should play with a full-time #10. Rotundo for now would be the back up to Sullivan, but I can also see how he helps in a formation with a double 8/10. I like Torres with Akalu backing him up as the left footed RW's. On the other side, Toure with Thaggard backing him up. Similar types of profiles on both sides with the older players getting the benefit of the doubt for now, but it does give us good depth, and a lot of those guys have positional versatility. I've not yet seen Sanogo play, but this age group doesn't have a real target striker. I don't doubt the talent, but I'd like to see him play and like to see him get into a camp with this age group before I'm convinced he'll be on this team. If he is, he's likely a starter. Oliva can be the back up #9. He's more of a false 9. Can play any of the attacking positions. Provide versatility. Has size, athletic, good in combinations. I can see C. Torres as an alternative because he's more of a real #9, and he's getting some minutes in MLS, but I'm not completely convinced about his talent, and I'd rather have a false 9 than a 9 I'm not convinced about.