2021 MLS Week 9 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by ManiacalClown, Jun 23, 2021.

  1. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    06/22/21

    Orlando City vs San Jose Earthquakes
    Exploria Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Chris Penso
    AR1: Jeremy Kieso
    AR2: Brooke Mayo
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AVAR: Kyle Longville

    06/23/21

    New England Revolution vs New York Red Bulls
    Gillette Stadium (7PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Jeffrey Swartzel
    AR2: Art Arustamyan
    4TH: Elijio Arreguin
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi
    AVAR: Gjovalin Bori

    New York City FC vs Atlanta United
    Red Bull Arena (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Ismail Elfath
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Kyle Atkins
    4TH: Victor Rivas
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Brian Dunn

    Philadelphia Union vs Columbus Crew
    Subaru Park (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Joe Dickerson
    AR1: Nick Uranga
    AR2: Jose Da Silva
    4TH: JJ Bilinski
    VAR: Alan Kelly
    AVAR: Claudiu Badea

    Chicago Fire vs FC Cincinnati
    Soldier Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Ismir Pekmic
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Peter Manikowski
    4TH: Fotis Bazakos
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Mike Kampmeinert

    CF Montreal vs D.C. United
    DRV PNK Stadium (8PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Kathryn Nesbitt
    4TH: Rubiel Vazquez
    VAR: Allen Chapman
    AVAR: Jozef Batko

    Minnesota United vs Austin FC
    Allianz Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Silviu Petrescu
    AR1: CJ Morgante
    AR2: Jeffrey Greeson
    4TH: Lukasz Szpala
    VAR: Kevin Stott
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    Houston Dynamo vs Portland Timbers
    BBVA Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Micheal Barwegen
    AR2: Tiffini Turpin
    4TH: Elvis Osmanovic
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Chantal Boudreau

    Nashville vs Toronto FC
    Nissan Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Ramy Touchan
    AR1: Andrew Bigelow
    AR2: Ian McKay
    4TH: Elton Garcia
    VAR: Alejandro Mariscal
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    Sporting Kansas City vs Colorado Rapids
    Children’s Mercy Park (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Dave Gantar
    AR1: Brian Poeschel
    AR2: Diego Blas
    4TH: Nima Saghafi
    VAR: Jon Freemon
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Seattle Sounders vs Real Salt Lake
    Lumen Field (10PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Cameron Blanchard
    AR2: Mike Rottersman
    4TH: Michael Radchuk
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    Los Angeles FC vs FC Dallas
    Banc of California Stadium (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Rosendo Mendoza
    AR1: Eric Weisbrod
    AR2: Apolinar Mariscal
    4TH: Alex Chilowicz
    VAR: Tim Ford
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    Vancouver Whitecaps vs LA Galaxy
    Rio Tinto Stadium (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Tori Penso
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Jeremy Hanson
    4TH: Baldomero Toledo
    VAR: Malik Badawi
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki


    Far as I can tell, the weekend will be "week" 10 because MLS just loves to annoy me.
     
    sitruc repped this.
  2. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Any thoughts on the two PK's in the Seattle-Salt Lake City match?

    I thought both were a bit harsh.....

    The SLC penalty is the result of a miniscule level of contact that to me does not even rise to the level of a foul.

    And the Seattle penalty is the result of an accidental handball with zero reaction time and the arm not in an obviously unnatural position.

    I can understand why Unkel called both of them, but I think they both could have just as easily been no-calls.
     
  3. seattlebeach

    seattlebeach Member

    AFC Richmond
    May 11, 2015
    Not Seattle, Not Beach
    I know you're a local like me - maybe you were there too - and I know you got pointed at for bias last week, and are trying to be balanced - but boy, those are both stone cold penalties.

    You can see both at https://www.mlssoccer.com/news/recap-seattle-sounders-2-real-salt-lake-1.

    The one against Seattle, at about 2:00 - Rubin clearly makes contact and then gets taken out by the GK. Easy call. Good job by Unkel to catch it live.

    The one against SLC, at about 3:00 - why are his arms up there? There's nothing natural about that.

    BTW, Unkel called a great, consistent match, clearly in control: the signaling for the PK at 3:00 is really weird and seemed even weirder in the stadium. He blows the whistle slowly, puts an arm up, and only points to the spot a couple seconds later. Was unclear what was going on.

    (Also, speaking of stone cold, I called the panenka. :) )
     
  4. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Chicago's game-tying goal against Cincy was wiped out because of a correctly-called offside. Watching Pekmic and Jurisevic work to get this call right is, in my opinion, exactly how VAR should work. Video evidence (without Hawkeye lines) clearly showed an offside. Pekmic took a look at a couple of replays and quickly called for the offside. The whole process maybe took 90 seconds, and the referee himself watched the video.

    It correctly overruled a clear and obvious offside that wasn't called on the field with very little dispute. Such a better process then just showing how the fancy technology works.
     
  5. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You may want to look a little closer.
     
  6. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Looked pretty obvious to me on the WGN/ESPN+ broadcast. No dispute from Arlo White and Tony Meola (the Fire broadcast team) either.
     
  7. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Check the defender's trailing foot.

    Everyone was clearly fooled by the camera angle, but Beric is onside. It's not a case of it being too close, even. If you draw the lines, he's on. Guaranteed.
     
    MassachusettsRef repped this.
  8. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    All I will add is that I think the "natural/un-natural" distinction as created by the IFAB is itself an unnatural effort to attribute intent where none exists. There is no way the RSL defender could have intended to handle the ball by any common sense understanding of the word "intent". He and Ruidiaz were battling for the ball while inches apart, and the defender had zero reaction time before the ball came off of Ruidiaz' chest and hit his arm.

    Unless the defender is obviously sticking his hand/arm out into a position for the purpose of handling the ball, I think defenders should get the benefit of the doubt as to what is/isn't a "natural" position, because I think rule-makers underestimate the degree to which arms fly all over the place when players are in motion, possibly off-balance and/or battling for the ball.

    I'm not a referee, as you all know, but I am a long-time soccer fan (30+ years), and I make the posts I do simply to point out how incomprehensible the rules (and many of the decisions that come from them) are to the average soccer fan.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But, the rules changed because (allegedly) fans/stakeholders didn't want ONLY intentional handballs to result in penalties.

    I'm not unsympathetic to your philosophical argument. But to act like it's the "rulesmakers" operating in a vacuum where they are completely out of touch ignores decades of commentary or complaints where people railed about a handball not being called when the defender gained an advantage or the contact was simply too obvious and blatant. So the rulesmakers made changes. And now intent/deliberate isn't the threshold entry level anymore.

    The handball law will always be imperfect and what is should be a punishable handball will always be up for debate. But when assessing what is a punishable handball right now, we have to forget the principle that we are only talking about intentional/deliberate handballs, to start.
     
  10. incognitoind

    incognitoind Member

    Apr 8, 2015
    I can confirm the goal in Chicago is 100% onside. This will certainly be shown in week in review
     
  11. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I definitely got fooled by the camera angle and watching the game on my phone instead of my TV. This seems a lot like the play in the Nations League final where I thought the Mexican attacker was onside by a trailing US foot on the goal that was waved off early in the match.
     
  12. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Week 9 and 10



    The handball call at 4:06 is interesting. PRO supports no handball.
     
  13. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wait, so they didn't publicly touch the Chicago v Cincinnati offside? Wow.

    I know I've said this before, but partial transparency is a problem. It's compartmentalized because different fan bases will be angry at different times, but it will eventually catch up with PRO and MLS.

    I also find the language around the non-red card in New York curious. "Would be supported" is less strong than I think was conveyed elsewhere.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  14. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd agree. They should cover every ofr and the occasional check that's interesting.
     
    GlennAA11 repped this.
  15. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's deliberately ambiguous language, and yet if PRO would support a red card *after* review, then they *must* consider the lack of a red card to be a clear and obvious error. There's really no functional difference in just *saying* it, logically speaking.
     
    socal lurker and MassachusettsRef repped this.
  16. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    I will just say this. You're gonna have a lot of upset coaches with the no handball call a la Penso this Fall. 100%
     
  17. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    And that's going to be different how?:)

    We've had coaches upset on both sides of "deliberate" forever.
     
    gaolin repped this.

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