2021 MLS Week 27 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by ManiacalClown, Sep 22, 2021.

  1. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Match week 27 includes the three midweek games, one of which (RBNY-NYC) was rescheduled from a previous match week.

    09/22/21

    Inter Miami CF vs Nashville
    DRV PNK Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Jon Freemon
    AR1: Kevin Klinger
    AR2: Cory Richardson
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: Jozef Batko

    Chicago Fire vs New England Revolution
    Soldier Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Lukasz Szpala
    AR1: Peter Manikowski
    AR2: Claudiu Badea
    4TH: Jair Marrufo
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    New York Red Bulls vs New York City FC
    Red Bull Arena (8PM ET)
    REF: Ismail Elfath
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Kyle Atkins
    4TH: Robert Sibiga
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Gjovalin Bori
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Elfath gave an SFP red for exactly the type of tackle many of us have been complaining about for awhile here. Directly from behind. Nominally at the ball with the lead leg (but no real chance of getting it) while the tucked leg crushes the opponent’s trail leg. So dangerous. Good for Elfath. And done without VAR. Praise and credit due.
     
    IASocFan, RefIADad and GlennAA11 repped this.
  3. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And a 90+10 red and a 90+12 PK to end in a tie. Now I have to look up the highlights.
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    VAR handball for a shot on goal that was a second yellow. Pretty straightforward, other than the time of the match. And I suppose the fact that Elfath made no efffort to avoid the yellow for the shot on goal, given it was a second.
     
  5. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    [​IMG]

    I hope this is the continuation of the trend we've seen for the last couple weeks. This is not a fair challenge and is as dangerous if not more dangerous then a lunge from the front that puts studs into the leg.
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And that image doesn't even really show what the tackler's tucked leg has already done to the trail leg before it gets ensnared! It wasn't pretty. And, again, it's somewhat understandable that this is challenging for referees to see because the eyes reflexively go to the lead leg's attempt at the ball.

    Great Elfath caught this. The next step (aside from all refs catching this sort of thing!) is VARs feeling empowered to say it's a clear and obvious error if tackles like this are not given as red cards. In the VAR era, that's where the true battle lies. Because if these aren't given consistently via VAR, it makes it really challenging to say referees are doing the right thing when they call it live without VAR.
     
  7. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I hope that they are. This tackle needs to leave football. Maybe Harvey Elliott's injury has woken up those in positions to do something to reverse the trend of ignoring the danger of most tackles from behind.
     
    kolabear, RefIADad and JasonMa repped this.
  8. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    But Harvey Elliott said it was cool. Definitely not a red card.

    It's an uphill battle. And the incline is steep.
     
    Thegreatwar and AremRed repped this.
  9. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    For that PK near the end, I thought cause it went off his chest.. it did not count
     
  10. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    Why do you think that? There is no longer anything specific about deflections in Law 12. Outside the weird goal scoring attacker, there are just two questions: was it deliberate and was the player making himself unnaturally bigger in a way not justified by his activity? If the answer to either is yes, it is an offense.

    So if ITOOTR the contact was deliberate or the result of biggering, its a handball offense, regardless of any prior contact.

    (I'd also note that this was true last year, too, as the deflection off the body provision did not apply in cases of deliberate handling or biggering. Which always made sense--you don't get to deliberately handle the ball just because it hit your body first and you don't get to unnaturally take up space just because it hits your body first. )
     
    gaolin repped this.
  11. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    09/25/21

    Philadelphia Union vs Atlanta United
    Subaru Park (3:30PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Gjovalin Bori
    4TH: Joshua Encarnacion
    VAR: Drew Fischer
    AVAR: Kathryn Nesbitt

    New England Revolution vs Orlando City
    Gillette Stadium (7PM ET)
    REF: Rosendo Mendoza
    AR1: Peter Balciunas
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Luis Arroyo
    VAR: Chico Grajeda
    AVAR: Tom Supple

    Columbus Crew vs CF Montréal
    Lower.com Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Corey Parker
    AR2: Adam Garner
    4TH: Baldomero Toledo
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Jose Da Silva

    D.C. United vs FC Cincinnati
    Audi Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Chris Penso
    AR1: Kyle Atkins
    AR2: Kevin Klinger
    4TH: Adam Kilpatrick
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Colorado Rapids vs Toronto FC
    Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (8PM ET)
    REF: Michael Radchuk
    AR1: Ian Anderson
    AR2: Mike Rottersman
    4TH: Alex Chilowicz
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Diego Blas

    Minnesota United vs Houston Dynamo
    Allianz Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Ian McKay
    AR2: Felisha Mariscal
    4TH: Greg Dopka
    VAR: Kevin Terry Jr
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    New York City FC vs New York Red Bulls
    Yankee Stadium (8PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Cameron Blanchard
    AR2: Logan Brown
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Carol Anne Chenard
    AVAR: Claudiu Badea

    San Jose Earthquakes vs Los Angeles FC
    PayPal Park (10PM ET)
    REF: Jair Marrufo
    AR1: Micheal Barwegen
    AR2: Jeffrey Greeson
    4TH: Victor Rivas
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Chris Elliott

    Vancouver Whitecaps vs FC Dallas
    BC Place (10PM ET)
    REF: Kevin Stott
    AR1: Chantal Boudreau
    AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    4TH: Alain Ruch
    VAR: Geoff Gamble
    AVAR: Frank Anderson

    Portland Timbers vs Real Salt Lake
    Providence Park (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Fotis Bazakos
    AR1: Brian Poeschel
    AR2: Ryan Graves
    4TH: Ramy Touchan
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak
     
  12. Crewster

    Crewster Member+

    Jan 28, 2005
    Worthington
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Question for the group: During first half stoppage time of Atl-Phi, a player is injured near midfield. The injury is dealt with, and the referee runs all the way to the penalty area for the drop ball. The instant the goalie picks it up, the ref whistles for half time.

    A very similar thing happened at the end of the Crew- Montreal game.

    If you are going to blow the whistle the instant the ball is touched, why not just whistle end of half, or end of game, and not waste everyone's time and energy giving a drop?
     
    jarbitro and GlennAA11 repped this.
  13. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member+

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Radchuk is relatively new right? Maybe his second or third game? I don't know anything about him or his style. Does anyone else?
     
  14. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    09/26/21

    Chicago Fire vs Nashville
    Soldier Field (1PM ET)
    REF: Ismir Pekmic
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: CJ Morgante
    4TH: Tim Ford
    VAR: Alan Kelly
    AVAR: Eric Boria

    Sporting Kansas City vs Seattle Sounders
    Children’s Mercy Park (7PM ET)
    REF: Joe Dickerson
    AR1: Adam Wienckowski
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Silviu Petrescu
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: Mike Kampmeinert

    Austin FC vs LA Galaxy
    Q2 Stadium (9:30PM ET)
    REF: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AR1: Peter Manikowski
    AR2: Jeffrey Swartzel
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Ismail Elfath
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson
     
  15. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Is Joe our next FIFA referee?
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He was a 4th on a recent CONCACAF match if that helps you draw a conclusion.
     
  17. mfw13

    mfw13 Member+

    Jul 19, 2003
    Seattle
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Another "question for the group".

    In the first half, Seattle had a shout for a PK on a tackle of Will Bruin. However, in the same sequence, Seattle then scores a few seconds later after a KC giveaway.

    What would have happened had VAR told Dickerson to go back and look at the tackle on Bruin and he had decided that it was, in fact, a PK. Would the goal have been taken off the board?
     
  18. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If I'm reading it correctly, it was a PK shout for Seattle and then a Seattle goal? Then no the VAR would never go back to award a PK. They could go back for a red card on the tackle if it was serious foul play but that would be very messy.

    A better example happened with Minnesota earlier this season. There was a PK not given that the VAR would have sent down as a PK and red for DOGSO, but Minnesota scored a goal before the VAR completed the check and stopped the game. So the defender didn't get sent off and the goal stood.
     
  19. incognitoind

    incognitoind Member

    Apr 8, 2015
    In addition to what @MassachusettsRef pointed out…it’s really a matter of alternative options. Joe is one of the very few non fifas that would even be in consideration. Both Ramy and Guido are still under provisional contracts and I think Mendoza is not a US citizen (and hence not eligible). Rivas and Chilowicz are the other two possibles, but as pointed out - Joe seems to have the eye of concacaf.

    There are also a few AR spots up for grabs. I would assume Richardson is the front runner for one of those. I don’t imagine any of the provisional ARs would get much attention so perhaps Weisbrod?
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    De Oliveira is eligible... *ducks*

    Is Chilowicz age-eligible? I feel like I was told his age once but can't remember.

    Rivas seems nailed-on for FIFA at some point. On very recent performance, I would think he'd be ahead of Dickerson, honestly. But Dickerson does have about a year of seniority/experience. Either way, I suspect they both make it on the list. Remember that Marrufo will almost certainly "need" to be replaced in 2023, too.

    That last thought just made me realize something. There could/will be referees at World Cup 2022 who already know they are off the list for 2023, since nominations will have already have been submitted and ratified by that point, giiven the late occurrence of the WC. That's different from the past summer tournaments, where referees often decide after the event whether to continue on in the fall and into the next calendar year. I imagine you still could see some retirements in early 2023, but that could mean referees might be unnecessarily taking up a spot from their country for the duration of the calendar year, so I suspect national associations will try to avoid that. Using Marrufo as the example, if he knows he won't referee in the 2023 MLS season, it would make sense to stand down when nominations are due in the fall of 2022.
     
    RedStar91 repped this.
  21. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I mean Alex Prus and Juan Guzman held FIFA badges at one point....
     
    GlennAA11 repped this.
  22. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    That's a great point.

    For Marrufo, it would be quite a clean break for him. Referee through the entire 2022 MLS season (will the MLS playoffs be done before the World Cup?). Referee at the World Cup and then hang it up. You won't leave MLS in a bind if you decide to hang it up as the season starts well after the World Cup ends.

    But for the European referees, it won't be a clean break. How many will essentially retire in the middle of their domestic league seasons and Champions League seasons? It could make planning for those leagues and UEFA quite difficult. If four or five European referees retire after the World Cup, UEFA would be put in a somewhat of bind for the CL knockout stages which start after the World Cup.

    Those referees will have to decide before the World Cup.

    Heck, they might have to decide before the start of the 2022-2023 European season.

    Also, pretty much every CL Final referee goes into a World Cup with momentum (every referee that has done the CL Final this century right before the World Cup has gone on to at least referee a knockout match in the World Cup) and becomes a defacto World Cup Final favorite since that is the last big match before the World Cup Final.

    That won't be the case in Qatar.
     
  23. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    and somehow Vazquez has one now
     
  24. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know if last night was still week 27 but I don't see a week 28 thread so I'll put this here:

    https://www.mlssoccer.com/video/was...atlanta-was-austin-fc-s-mckinze-gaines-fouled

    Time stamp: 3:49

    Ignoring the Instant Replay announcers, what do posters here think should be the call on this? I was sitting above the goal Austin was attacking on this sequence and I was shocked nothing was called. Looking at the replay I can be convinced pretty much any combination of foul/yellow/red/PK is the correct call, but no call seems to be the wrong one.

    I almost understand why VAR didn't get involved though. I would think the most likely call is foul + DOGSO red. I think the foul occurs just outside the box. So there's no grounds for VAR to be involved for a PK. While I think this is DOGSO with Trusty being right there I suppose you could make a case that its not clearly DOGSO because Trusty is covering. Thus its not clearly wrong to not give a red card. So VAR wouldn't get involved for that. So there's nothing for VAR to trigger a replay on.
     
  25. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    (Copying the above post to the correct Week 28 thread)
     

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