2021 MLS Week 19 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by ManiacalClown, Aug 14, 2021.

  1. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    08/13/21

    San Jose Earthquakes vs Vancouver Whitecaps
    PayPal Park (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Tim Ford
    AR1: Apolinar Mariscal
    AR2: Diego Blas
    4TH: Elijio Arreguin
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    08/14/21

    Minnesota United vs LA Galaxy
    Allianz Field (6PM ET)
    REF: Joe Dickerson
    AR1: Adam Garner
    AR2: Cory Richardson
    4TH: Fotis Bazakos
    VAR: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AVAR: Jeff Muschik

    CF Montréal vs New York Red Bulls
    Stade Saputo (8PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Micheal Barwegen
    AR2: Lyes Arfa
    4TH: Silviu Petrescu
    VAR: Carol Anne Chenard
    AVAR: Adam Wienckowski

    New York City FC vs Inter Miami CF
    Red Bull Arena (8PM ET)
    REF: Alan Kelly
    AR1: Jeremy Kieso
    AR2: Ryan Graves
    4TH: Gjovalin Bori
    VAR: Ramy Touchan
    AVAR: Tom Supple

    Toronto FC vs New England Revolution
    BMO Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Rubiel Vazquez
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Gianni Facchini
    4TH: Fabrizio Stasolla
    VAR: Geoff Gamble
    AVAR: Philippe Briere

    FC Dallas vs Sporting Kansas City
    Toyota Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Jeffrey Greeson
    AR2: Eric Weisbrod
    4TH: JC Griggs
    VAR: Alejandro Mariscal
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    Houston Dynamo vs Colorado Rapids
    BBVA Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Rosendo Mendoza
    AR1: Claudiu Badea
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Robert Sibiga
    VAR: Kevin Stott
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    Real Salt Lake vs Austin FC
    Rio Tinto Stadium (10PM ET)
    REF: Dave Gantar
    AR1: Andrew Bigelow
    AR2: Corey Rockwell
    4TH: Alyssa Nichols
    VAR: Victor Rivas
    AVAR: Chantal Boudreau
     
  2. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    Was at MN-LA. I thought Dickerson was solid. Wasn’t the toughest game by MLS standards but he certainly seemed in control.

    LA GK was spectacular. Amazing to watch.
     
  3. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    PK given at the end of the 4th minute of 3 minutes of stoppage in the first half of HOU-COL. Stone cold penalty but even before it happened I was starting to raise my eyebrow at how much extra time was being given for Houston to finish its attack...
     
  4. GlennAA11

    GlennAA11 Member+

    Jun 12, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Montreal getting ready for their 3rd PK attempt in stoppage time
     
  5. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    The handball was for the ball hitting an arm as he slid. It could be argued that the position of his arm was ‘a consequence of, or justifiable by, the player’s body movement for that specific situation.’ So, he didn’t make his body unnaturally bigger.
     
  6. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We hit CONCACAF Phase 1 in Houston
     
  7. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think so. As far as I'm aware, the instruction remains that a defender takes a risk by having their arm extended laterally from their body while sliding, even if that specific language has been replaced. He doesn't have to have his arm out that far when he slides. He's not justified in creating this unnatural barrier for the ball because he's falling and his arm is supporting his body or anything like that, at least in my opinion.
     
    Bradley Smith repped this.
  8. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    For Montreal's 2nd PK attempt in the stoppage of FT -- did the PK taker stop? Wouldn't that be a violation? They have to KEEP going and cannot stop.
     
  9. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't see the video but you can stop during the run up. You can not stop at the end of it before you kick the ball.
     
    gaolin repped this.
  10. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There is no requirement to keep moving forward, or to keep moving at all, during the run up to a penalty kick. Feinting during the run up is explicity allowed by Law 14, and only feinting to kick the ball *after completing the run up* is forbidden.
     

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  11. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A couple years ago I'd feel bad for the keeper because it was only by a little bit. But after seeing how well other keepers have adjusted their technique, I'm more inclined to blame coaching. His backfoot being an inch off the line gained him absolutely nothing when he hopped forward to push. Keepers (and their coaches) should know by now how to work the system.
     
  12. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So probably one of the biggest VAR errors for MLS since it's inception happened here.

    We had on OFR to upgrade SPA to DOGSO, but the APP started with this.

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's not a good miss.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That’s now three cases arguing for the offside lines. But it’s three different clubs. I wonder when someone will put it all together to make the argument.
     
  15. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To be completely honest, I can't see how they missed that even without the lines. Just looking at the grass cuts makes it pretty clear it's offside.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Right. The initial miss—meh, it happens.

    But the VAR team either didn’t properly clear the APP or cleared it by looking at that image and concluding it wasn’t clearly offside. I’m not sure which option is worse.
     
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  17. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't have the framerate or resolution available to the VAR, but this is suspect. I have a bit of a better image from ESPN+ that doesn't look any more onside.
    I think the expectation is that this is called correctly on the field, but the still being so clear belies the actual difficulty here. Attacker coming back from an offside position while the defender is moving the opposite direction. AR isn't quite in the best position to judge at the moment the ball is played. It all factors in.

    At the end of the day, we have video review to correct misses exactly like this. These are the ones that anyone can look at and say "yep, that's wrong." These are the ones that have to be caught for credibility sake.
     
  18. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If you watch the full speed video you can understand the AR missing it. The attacker was coming towards midfield and the defender was dropping.

    As for the VAR crew.............................
     
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  19. voiceoflg

    voiceoflg Member+

    Dec 8, 2005
    I went to my first MLS game today. LAFC at ATL UTD.

    Atlanta United vs Los Angeles FC
    Mercedes-Benz Stadium (4PM ET)
    REF: Chris Penso
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Jose Da Silva
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: Jozef Batko

    I thought they did a fantastic job. My only pet peeve is Penso did NOTHING for the FRDs. Opponents stood over the ball at virtually every free kick, not counting corners and goal kicks. But I guess that is expected in today's MLS.
     
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  20. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To be clear, I agree that the onfield “miss” is one that is very understandable. I always have trouble on those comeback offside calls when the defender is dropping. It’s a really tough call.

    The VAR team has to catch that one. Like I said, they have the grass cuts to show this is offside. As others have said, VAR was put in to correct exactly this type of play. It’s clear and obvious (with or without lines) that this was not called correctly on the field.
     
  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Minor (major?) point here… the original offside decision would never be subject to correction in most circumstances. The play resulted in a DFK and yellow card.

    The only reason this is subject to review is because the VAR first determined it was a clear red. So this play stretches the “VAR was put in play to correct exactly this…” argument. Because, well, without VAR this is just an attacking free kick. VAR turns it into a (debatable?) red card that should have been cancelled out for the offside.
     
  22. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My brand of hyperbole aside, I wasn't trying to say that video review is here for this specific scenario of upgrading a yellow to red and then wiping it out entirely with offside. I'm just saying that when you have incontrovertible evidence of this nature, you're not going to get any serious push back against there being a clear and obvious error. The expectation would be that this is always corrected should it precede a reviewable decision, regardless of whether the entire review process is understood.
     
  23. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    This ticks me off as well, and it's not just MLS. Youth players of course will emulate this, I've even seen young players coached to run up and stand over the ball *during the game*. I would like to see IFAB add the "must be cautioned" language to FRD but even then I wonder if the pro leagues would enforce it.
     
    WrathofDog repped this.
  24. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I agree with you, but that ship has sailed a long time ago.

    It would improve the game greatly, but the reality is that players have just accepted that it is pretty much just part of the game.

    No one wants this cautioned unless it's towards the end of the game.

    Professional referees aren't going to waste their bullets on this unless they really must. It's just not a point of emphasis.
     
  25. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Also at the top level the game has become so fast that even the fouled teams usually will take the 15 second breather and not complain much.
     

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