2021 CONCACAF Champions League (R)

Discussion in 'Referee' started by RefIADad, Apr 6, 2021.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Meh.

    If you end up with a red card for the tackle and a red card for another Saprissa player, I'd agree. Given the totality of events, 10 v 9 would be justice. The retaliation helps fuel the mass confrontation, so if you punish the mass confrontation appropriately then, yes, I think you have to send off the Union defender for the push, too.

    Or, if the referee had been firmer and stopped everything before it escalated after that push, perhaps with already having the red card out after the tackle, I could swallow 10 v 10.

    But if anyone were to tell me this needed to be just 10 v 10 for the tackle and the push, given everything that happened, I'd balk. The tackler tries to murder his opponent with a garbage challenge 100 yards from his own goal with no time left. Yes, the push is retaliation. Yes, it's gratuitous. Yes, you can certainly classify it as VC. But when you have a 10+ SFP challenge and maybe a 5 or 6 on the VC retaliation scale and it's the 94th minute of a match that didn't need the tackle...? Yeah, I can justify only a yellow for that retaliation.
     
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  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
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  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Straying from refereeing just a little bit, and I realize there are particular reasons for the most recent failure, but it's hard to say USSF is in a position to tell CONCACAF to pound sand when it has missed the World Cup and Olympics in the most recent cycles (nevermind the Olympics for the previous two, as well). I mean, if you're going to drop a continental region for competitive purposes, you better actually be dominating that region, right?

    The financial implications and purposes are an entirely different matter, of course. But the risk of making qualification even tougher have a direct bearing on financial incentives, as well.
     
  4. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I totally agree, if no red for the foul, then no red for anything else. I think the foul should have been red and at least one red to each team during the brawl.
     
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  5. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    This is all Brian Hall. Hall is the problem. It's no one else. He assigns the matches, he oversees the training modules, he writes the power points, he shows the clips, etc.

    Remember when Batres used to do Mexico vs. US matches? He actually gave red cards and penalty kicks and he got a World Cup quarterfinal appointment (something that I don't think any non-Mexican referee has ever gotten from CONCACAF).

    Who knows what has to happen now to get a red card in a Mexico vs. US match.
     
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  6. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Seems like DOGSO is the only way red cards get shown.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm more concerned about the US v Guatemala matches, but the point still stands. With the talent the US is putting on the field now for the next several years, the risk of a career-ending injury in CONCACAF to a budding superstar is non-negligible. I mean, we're only a generation or so away from when it was happening in Europe, so it's not crazy. What you permit, you encourage. And right now crazy challenges that could destroy the career of someone like Weston McKennie are being encouraged.
     
  8. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is really where I was going with my CONMEBOL comment. I'm just frustrated and worried about a major injury. Heck, I'm not even an El Tri fan and I seriously question whether Raul Jiminez should ever play in a CONCACAF match for Mexico again because of his head injury - even if he is eventually cleared to play. I hate thinking like this, but if referees won't protect players what's to stop someone from lining Jiminez up for an elbow to the head?
     
  9. Pelican86

    Pelican86 Member

    United States
    Jun 13, 2019
    If you ever had an MLS-Liga MX merger, CONCACAF club competitions would be irrelevant for US/Mexican teams. With 48 teams in the World Cup, qualifying gets easier. I doubt the Gold Cup makes much money if you don't have access to American stadiums. I don't know if the US and Mexico can ever leave CONCACAF, but it'd be nice for them to be a position where CONCACAF has even less power over them.
     
  10. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just saw the the full version of the melee at the Saprissa/Union game mentioned up there before. It was way worse than the highlights let on. Saprissa's coaching staff was fully on the field, shoving the fourth official. Multiple reserves and bench personnel were on the pitch, some of them shoving/yelling at the officials. The match commissioner himself came on to the field, which is something I have never seen before. He was mainly trying to get the Saprissa personnel off the field. It was crazy, even by CONCACAF's "anything vs. the Americans goes" normal standard.
     
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  11. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    The ride never ends!

    Also, because it's worth pointing out bad calls regardless of which league's teams are affected, we had at least two incidents last night that looked like prime candidates for VAR intervention in an MLS game. Portland's Bodily with a high, straight leg challenge with what looked like solid contact above the ankle and then what looked like a pretty blatant stamp from an Arcahaie player on the Cruz Azul goalkeeper. Believe it was yellow and no misconduct, respectively.
     
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  12. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I mean, sure, VAR fixes that.

    But we shouldn't allow VAR to let a referee team off the hook. It's a bad decision from the AR, obviously. But the referee clearly would see the last touch was from a defender. He has to at least ask the question of the AR and communicate with him before giving offside. This can easily be fixed without VAR if the referee has any level of awareness and the crew has adequate communication. The fact that one of CONCACAF's best crews can screw this up without even appearing to question themselves is... well, who am I kidding, it's not actually that surprising.
     
  13. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yep, even if he's in an offside position, which obviously he was not, the referee has to note the deliberate play. Wake the hell up.
     
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  14. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    FS1 just mentioned that the referee from last week's Saprissa/Philadelphia match (Ismael Cornejo) will not be involved on any more CCL games this season. Of course, there's no guarantee there was any intention of using him again anyway...
     
  15. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My solution is to have North and Central America join CONMEBOL. Have the Caribbean essentially "join" Oceania. The current Oceania and the current Caribbean play their own World Cup Qualifying to determine a single qualifier from each region, thus saving travel costs, then those two playoff for one whole World Cup spot (which is more than Oceania has now). Only two teams have to make Caribbean-Oceania flights. FIFA can afford to pay for that.

    This was before the expansion to 48 though. Now it may not make as much sense.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One of the weirder opening sentences to these sort of press releases I've seen:

    https://www.concacaf.com/champions-...ials-for-sccl-quarterfinal-first-leg-matches/

    More importantly, look at the assignments. MLS VARs on all four matches, including an American (Penso) on a US-Mexico match. Non-MLS and non-FMF officials getting experience as AVAR.

    Some very interesting stuff here. The lack of FMF VARs on any leg 1 matches makes me think everything will be flipped in leg 2, maybe--at least for the three matches in Mexico?
     
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  17. gold4278

    gold4278 Member

    Feb 21, 2007
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Nations League and Gold Cup were also confirmed to have VAR.
     
  18. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, I wouldn't say the start to VAR in Toronto-Cruz Azul is smooth. But also not an abomination, yet. Just some of the kinks we saw in other competitions early on are showing themselves again here.

    The handball no-penalty VAR intervention was interesting.
     
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  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #44 MassachusettsRef, Apr 27, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2021
    The non-intervention at 86' might be even more interesting. There was also a potential handball earlier against Cruz Azul after the non-reversal for Toronto. I wonder how much the OFR for the first handball played into the standard for recommendation going forward.

    I mean, this is still not a disaster. But VAR was not helpful in this match.
     
  20. jarbitro

    jarbitro Member

    Mar 13, 2003
    N'Djamena, Tchad
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    By CONCACAF standards, that is high praise.
     
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  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    3:38 is the disallowed goal via VAR. 6:18 is the OFR for the penalty. The second handball appeal and the potential penalty for a trip are not in any highlights package I can find:



    Interested in thoughts on the OFR. I think you can make a couple arguments in favor of penalty (deliberately touches or unnaturally bigger). However, maybe the ball touches the defenders foot first and then shoots up to the hand? Is that the justification for not calling this?

    This is one where I think the dense language of the law and the likely result of the shot (that ball is going FAR over the crossbar if it's gone from foot to hand/chest level that quickly) allows for the no-call and probably makes the no-call just for neutral observers. But I genuinely don't know if this is supposed to be called per the Laws. Chapman obviously thought it did; I just can't tell if he was correct or if he missed a key component.
     
  22. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On the rejected OFR, having seen the angle that shows the ball take a 90 degree change of trajectory, I would side with the referee on the field that the non-calling of a penalty was not a clear and obvious error.
     
  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think I would, too. But...

    A) I don't think Chapman ever showed him that angle. Unless I'm mistaken, that means Chapman could have done better to begin with. And then Montero is not experienced enough to ask for the other angle (again, unless I'm mistaken).

    B) This is where the language of the Laws still confound me. "Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player's hand/arm directly from the player's own head or body (includnig the foot)." Cool. This touched his foot/leg first. But the "above offences" include "deliberately touches the ball with their hand/arm, including moving the hand/arm towards the ball" and "the hand/arm has made their body unnaturally bigger." So if you determine this was a deliberate motion or made the body unnaturally bigger, it trumps the "not an offence" stipulation, right? Deflecting off the leg first is not a universal Get-out-of-jail-free" card.

    In the end, I think there's enough ambiguity here to not overturn. But in a world where competition authorities want handballs to be black and white, this is a tough oen. And it says a lot that Chapman and Montero were on two different pages.
     
  24. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The deflection seems to fall in line with what PRO does not want called which makes me highly suspect that Chapman didn't see it, which then makes me suspect the referee may have come to the correct conclusion for the wrong reasons...

    But this is all speculation. I could be wrong about PRO's expectations here.

    EDIT: not that PRO is the authority here, but CONCACAF is clearly leaning on their experience
     
  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's speculation, yes, but I agree completely.
     
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