2021 Breakout Youngster

Discussion in 'USA Men' started by Patrick167, Dec 11, 2020.

  1. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The inferiority complex is well deserved especially after the 2015-2019 fiasco. It’s just odd that we’ve gone from the worst generation to the best generation in such a short span.
     
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  2. RossD

    RossD Member

    Aug 17, 2013
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    I think one reason is it could be the mind shift has finally changed about development. I’m 47 and my parents knew nothing about soccer when I was playing and the American sports mindset is the goal is to get an athletic scholarship. Almost no parents would agree to let their son sign a pro contract for almost nothing out of high school and loose any potential college scholarship. It’s finally gotten to the point where the kids who played soccer growing up now have teenage kids and they better understand how everyone else in the world develops players and they are ok with forgoing college to sign pro.
     
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  3. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How much would it effect your thinking that your kid could make a very decent salary now in MLS?
     
  4. RossD

    RossD Member

    Aug 17, 2013
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    That’s exactly my point. Parents are now ok with skipping college and forgoing a scholarship because they understand how much money they can now make signing domestic contracts.
    I think the biggest development hurdle was parent skepticism. That’s now mostly been placated.
     
  5. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    And the award for biggest failure on the breakout thread? Andrew Carleton. Signed for the Georgia Storm in the NPSL (4th tier). Prospect is a latin word meaning "hasn't done squat yet." We have to remember that just like in Europe, we will have a pretty significant failure rate of these players that we think are going to be good. Andrew has had off the field issues, of course. The sad truth is that of late.......................he's hasn't been good on the field either. And it doesn't take a lot to slip into oblivion. A teammate of his from that U17 World Cup team. Blaine Ferri went over to Germany, didn't succeed there, came back to play in the USL last season, and as far as we can tell doesn't have a club this year.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    It's a bit strange because he seemed quite good on a good team. Then again, it's also strange that the 2015 and 2019 u17 "failures" produced just as many good players if not more than 2017.
     
  7. TurdFerguson

    TurdFerguson Member

    Jan 11, 2013
    Houston
     
  8. frankburgers

    frankburgers Member+

    May 31, 2016
    Two elite 17 year olds with the initials CC

    the casual soccer fan will have trouble with this.
     
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  9. LouisZ

    LouisZ Member+

    Oct 14, 2010
    Southern California-USA
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Saw his game vs Real and he is physically strong at only 17. He didn't get enough touches. He was kept in check.
     
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  10. felloveranddidanadu

    Plymouth Argyle FC
    Dec 12, 2009
    Club:
    San Jose Frogs
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I like his steamrolling dribble in the 92/93' though. He's an athletic marvel
     
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  11. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Cowell had a few moments this game where he showed his upside. There was that yellow-drawing run, but earlier there was also a simple situation where he just took a dribble, blew past the defenders and simply just took one touch too many ... but he'll learn.
     
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  12. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    Yeah, but fortunately you could hardly confuse the two, as one's built like an Adonis and the other is gangly, and their games have little in common, either, apart from the fact that they're both attack-minded.
     
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  13. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The American Messi vs Ronaldo debate lol
     
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  14. Brandinho

    Brandinho Member

    None
    United States
    Feb 22, 2007
    New Jersey
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    To paraphrase Little Big League, let’s let them win something before we put them in the hall of fame.

    They are by far the most talented generation but also the most entitled. All the talent in the world can’t make up for the cohesion and grit other generations have had. In 2010 and 2002, the final result was greater than the sum of the parts and unless this unit can match what those generations brought, I can’t see how we can call them the best generation based on talent alone.
     
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  15. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    You called them the best generation on talent alone in the first sentence then say you can't say that in your last...

    What have they been entitled too? They didn't go to college and spend 6 months chasing girls rather than training. They didn't get a cushy MLS starting position with no competition. They have to make the starting lineup in a Top 5 league if they don't want the USMNT coach to call in an MLS vet instead. Not sure where these kids have been coddled to make them feel entitled?

    If anything, they have been professionalized since 14, if not earlier. Several left home to move to an entirely different continent at 16 or 18. Had to learn multiple languages, had to fight for a spot in every training against older players playing for their livelihood.
     
  16. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I don't know man. When a generation like this grows up playing together since forever they tend to be pretty cohesive. They all know each other since they were 15 IIRC.
     
  17. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    They know each other, but they don't know each other.

    Just the trio of Pulisic, McKennie, and Reyna has never played a match together at any level.
    And that's before we even discuss the other guys.

    That's the real unknown question. Does this young generation have enough time to gel on the field before the games start to matter (WCQing) this fall. I don't know. Its why folks get very worried when a player like McKennie says he wants to take the summer off. We can't expect to just show up and expect to beat teams in WCQers.

    The greatness of this generation as a unit, as a national team, is totally unknown right now.
    I'm totally in agreement with regards to the talent level of the individual players compared to previous USMNT generations and most of CONCACAF.
     
  18. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    I was never thinking of Reyna.

    https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/20...lisic-mckennie-and-adams-reunited-in-mnt-camp

    FWIW, the 2002 team had their fair share of newcomers. JOB, LD, and DMB had like 20 caps each by the time the WC rolled around. Indeed, before the qualifiers started I remember that we were also wondering whether the new generation was any good until it just was. But yeah, the midfield and the defense were well gelled and had played together a long time. The nice thing was that the new generation was also pretty familiar with each other yet I think that the big thing was that the talent of the new generation was really good.

    Meanwhile 2006 should have been from a cohesion point of view the best team. Reyna was only 32 and the new generation was well integrated. But I guess we don't like to talk about 2006!

    This is particular situation is sort of weird and extreme. Nothing from the previous generation to build off of and a quarantine restrictions to make everything difficult. However, socially the group seems very cohesive and that can be a huge indicator of on the field cohesion.

    In any case, yeah, nothing won with this group. But, also, everything looks really good with this group.
     
  19. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    McKennie never said any such thing.
     
  20. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    SMH, we're so OT that nobody even posted a Hoppe score and assist last weekend. Also, team of the week.
     
  21. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    sheer height is overrated. you need to be able to jump with a striker. 5'11" or above with some "ups" suffices. i swear, we are worse than hoops coaches about this. hoops coaches understand the concept "ground bound."

    and to me a lot of the stick figure obsession comes at the expense of any ability to stay with speedy forwards. the thoughtful analysis would be having watched our NT games and looking at the leading NTs, how are we being exposed? recent years we give up a lot more run of play stuff and getting juked than we lose headers. i'd be addressing my actual rather than theoretical problem. mobile people who can mark, with leaping ability on those occasions we need to challenge crosses.

    fwiw i thought this was always a better NT with "pope" or "boca" vs "lalas" or "omar."
     
  22. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    get your best talent in the pool and then tweak it for coherence. i think it's more important you find the right people first. robinson and brooks and a few others are not your best people and shouldn't be cooked in the cake.

    i also think the chemistry people are naive and miss that a lot of what matters is finding connecting types or people who have played together in age group ball. we underrate the value of a ferreira, lletget, or the like who simply works well with others. that maybe a UCL all star team is selfish. that you might need some players in the mix simply because they combine well, at which point you can then magically discuss "chemistry." when in reality it's including some players in there simply for combination value. a lot of the discussion on this is magical thinking, put them on the field for games and it just happens, ignoring practices. ignoring certain players may simply be better team players. etc. etc. chemistry is something you have to select and work on.

    i also think a lot of the chemistry talk tends to be a smoke screen for conservatism and excuses, "just give them another few games and they will gel." personally i think when you land upon the right people it will look good immediately. i think y'all have confused "i thought you were going right when you went left" (one play, need to learn more) with "people who don't combine well" (can't be fixed). to me we need to look at the mids and 9 harder for interactivity.
     
  23. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    to be clear about prior generations, they were brought up to play disciplined formations with specific roles, they might have played together for a few years at bradenton, and NT was a priority given the poor club reception we used to get abroad. we now have decentralized development, we have better opportunities abroad and this NT is less of a priority***, and the formation is a fashion whim rather than something tailored to the team to maximize wins and advancement.

    also re chemistry the basic identity confusion of if we are a possession team or a pressing defensive unit. as i have previously explained, we run out a 433 and talk possession but then staff the midfield with a 6 and two way types. no one is being picked for slick central play. we also put people like zardes out there sometimes. we then wonder why we look sloppy and have a bunch of giveaways. if you put some more technical players out there you probably get more possession and supposed "chemistry." but you then have to break some china. only one of mckennie or musah. pasture zardes.

    we also have a tendency to "iso" the wings like james harden when we should really ask pulisic and co. to immediately attack the defense once they control the ball, as opposed to pause and dance around. part of the perceived chemistry problem is letting the ball stop moving, tempo slows, defense gets back.


    ***back in the day landon could be awesome and be loaned out and set adrift by dortmund, and keller could only get a job at rayo. the net effect is to earn respect you lean world cup. we can get respect at club now. players can emphasize club ball in their lives. so where does the fire come from now?
     
  24. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Confidence is earned. You gather the new players, you like the way they look. But they haven't earned it til they start winning big ones.

    One of the quickest ways to waste this is pat them on the back how great they are like they win showing up. They obviously don't win showing up. So go learn to play as a team, encourage the coach to keep tweaking selection and lineups, and otherwise act like a team that has promise but hasn't done anything yet.

    That's not an inferiority complex. That's maybe an all star team approach isn't what we need. That's learn to combine on offense and defense. That's up the work rate.

    Do we look dominant against Mexico or Canada? Exactly. Get back out there and do the work.

    And then like I said, nice generation but we lost in the quarters. That alone, you have business to take care of. You can spin that we get more minutes than Italian kids but they went deeper in the tournament than we did. You don't rectify that saying "2026" mantras.
     
  25. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #375 juvechelsea, May 24, 2021
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
    Brazil and Argentine U20s are probably plying their trade in their home country waiting for their first big money move. People forget Messi had to illegally circumvent the 18 year old rule to be there when he was. So that's misleading.

    Italian players tend to stay put rather than go expeditionary. So they may be stuck apprenticing in Serie A. So check back in a few years. That, too, misleading.

    Re the comment mansplaining the various leagues' roster rules to me, I already have studied them. My point here is not "we could have more except for the rules" -- which is true in theory**** -- but underlining the reality of foreign leagues and how much we can participate there. Those countries' rules are set up to limit how many of us there can possibly be.

    In the case of UK work permits, that ensures only dual passport players and a handful of NT stalwarts are ever eligible at any one time^^^. It doesn't matter if in theory we would deluge a fully open UK. It is what it is. And the reality is this severely constrains our participation.

    And then there are countries like Italy that for whatever reason just don't sign many of us. As bad as the UK is, they care less.

    My broader point, which you are missing, is against this background of constraints or bias, that you need a home like MLS where if all else fails a few hundred domestics can be well paid to play soccer, and provide a sort of default or baseline below which the sport cannot drop. And that's the negative version, the positive version is at any given time they are still contributing 1/3 to 1/2 of the selection. As well as many of the academicians or transfer players now abroad.

    I don't need your lecture. I need for you to consider that the impact of the foreign roster rules and/or immigration laws and/or outright bias in some corners, is that expeditionary soccer will never fully displace domestic soccer. It will always be relevant as where they play through 18, where some start careers, and where we can play when talent ebbs and Europe is less fascinated.

    That we cannot depend on Europe to employ and play us. That some countries are not fully onboard the American soccer train. That others have numerical or qualitative limits. That some of what happens biases towards passport holders. That it will always be the cherry and whip cream on top. it is nice to be respected when we're good. We cannot premise our whole approach to other countries taking care of us. This is like a regression to pre-96 notions. And back then we either sucked or literally camped 2/3 of the team year round.






    ****I am sure Americans could deluge England if they ever got rid of the work permit rules. I also think that's the whole point to them.
    ^^^Now, in theory all our key players could pick pursuing their career in England when they hit their eligibility. At times we have had more players in England. But their rules require a concerted choice by a set of players at a particular time in their careers. And the NT % requirement by definition lags their early development. Hence our affection for Germany and such, where there is a raw roster limit -- which treats an 18 year old like a 35 year old -- rather than a resume/game log hurdle -- which favors veterans or passport holders.
     

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