2021 African Cup of Nations (2022)

Discussion in 'CAF: Tournaments' started by Ofori, Nov 30, 2021.

  1. Game of Billions

    Nilford-On-Null F.C.
    Scotland
    Nov 16, 2021
    Scotland
    Full-time: Gabon 1-1 Ghana

    Fighting on pitch after whistle. Ghana player Benjamin Tete kicked off, punched a face. Red card. FIFA will be pissed. It's not like Ghana are out or got cheated.

    There's always drama in football!
     
  2. Kamtedrejt

    Kamtedrejt Member+

    Internazionale Milano
    Albania
    Mar 14, 2017
    Hamburg
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Albania
    I get why you give Ghana a little bit the benefit of the doubt but I would place them 2nd. I rate Mali at the moment higher than Ghana. Their first game against Tunisia was not impressive but I think they will pick it up in next games.
     
  3. vancity eagle

    vancity eagle Member+

    Apr 6, 2006
    they have really been in decline for a while.

    what gave me hope for them was the emergence of guys like Kudus and Sulemana, but the team is just dragging along.

    They really miss Kudus, he would have been the difference maker, but the foundation of this team is not very good.

    Also I dont believe the coach (previous coach as well) are picking Ghana's best players. No major superstars missing, but there are a lot of guys better than many on their bench. Looks like they are trying to sell players. Never helpful to build a good team.
     
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  4. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Tehran Iran
    Cameroon's matches have been quite entertaining, but that has been partly because the pressure of being hosts lead them to press very high, allowing them to attack in numbers but also leaving them vulnerable on the counter. Before the tournament, I mentioned them among the top contenders to win the tournament as hosts, but that doesn't mean that in other settings, I would consider them at the level of the top 5 in CAF.

    Morocco, which I consider the best CAF side if led properly but who I continue to be disappointed in, should top its group as I expected and then end up losing (like in the last AFCON) to some side or another on penalties. The spectacle they made beating a rubbish side filled with 3rd and 4th division players like "Comoros", missing a slew of sitters, reminded me however that they still need better forwards. I am not sure taking a borderline Spanish international and converting him to a Moroccan international is the solution for them either. Still, regardless of how they do in AFCON, I certainly hope they will qualify to the World Cup in Qatar. I think they can do very well in Qatar.

    Senegal have been disappointing. Less persuasive than I expected. But they are missing quite a few players and I accept the other comments from @vancity eagle when it comes to afternoon hot/humid conditions and know that Guinea are a pretty solid side.

    Nigeria certainly impressed against Egypt. Since I don't rate their next two opponents (which they will defeat but how convincingly remains to seen), the real test for them to see how much of the impression they made was simply an indictment of Carlos Querioz's Egypt and how much of it the result of finding the right coach, will be in the knockout stages. They certainly have the pedigree, talent, and now perhaps form and coach, to win the AFCON. A semi-final is the least I expect from them.

    As for Algeria, who I will be rooting for, I have a lot go say but I like to see their second match first. Same with Tunisia and Mali. As for all the rest, some made the tournament interesting and other watered it down. But other than Egypt and Ghana being disappointing, the rest don't rate highly enough internationally for me to talk about them.
     
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  5. Game of Billions

    Nilford-On-Null F.C.
    Scotland
    Nov 16, 2021
    Scotland
    Nigeria looked very good, will be great to see them up against a similar quality side in the quarters. Watching Egypt right now, they need a win, but Bissau are no walk-overs...
     
  6. Kamtedrejt

    Kamtedrejt Member+

    Internazionale Milano
    Albania
    Mar 14, 2017
    Hamburg
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Albania
    Very dominant first half by Egypt. It's pretty much one-way traffic. They hit the post twice. If they keep up the pressure it's merely a matter of time until they break the deadlock.

    By the way Guinea-Bussau are lucky to have not a man sent off. For me it was a straight red card the accident when the Guinea Bissau defender stopped Mostafa Mohamed.
     
  7. Game of Billions

    Nilford-On-Null F.C.
    Scotland
    Nov 16, 2021
    Scotland
    Egypt 1-0 Bissau. Bissau had a great, great goal chopped off, shocking refereeing.
     
  8. Kamtedrejt

    Kamtedrejt Member+

    Internazionale Milano
    Albania
    Mar 14, 2017
    Hamburg
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Albania
    Nothing shocking. It was the right decision.
     
  9. Game of Billions

    Nilford-On-Null F.C.
    Scotland
    Nov 16, 2021
    Scotland
    Yeah, seeing it again, it was grappling with a fall, but what piece of play, great finish! Hard luck to Bissau.
     
  10. Iranian Monitor

    Iranian Monitor Member+

    Aug 18, 2004
    Tehran Iran
    I only watched the first half of Nigeria-Sudan...found Nigeria disappointing and lackluster TBH despite leading 2:0 at HT.

    As for Egypt, they also managed to make meal out of beating Guinea-Bussau, with the game turning into a nail-biter at the end with the disallowed goal that seemed to have given Guinea-Bussau a share of the spoils before it was overturned by VAR, and with the last gasp chance that again came close to giving Guinea-Bussau a share of the spoils. While Guinea-Bussau is a more credible side than Sudan, you still can't be really impressed by Egypt ending up struggling to beat them. Especially since Egypt (unlike Nigeria who didn't appear to be putting all their effort into their match against Sudan), was desperate for points and a good showing after having lost their opener to Nigeria.
     
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  11. adamsstanstansadams

    adamsstanstansadams New Member

    Ny Red Bulls
    United States
    Nov 24, 2021
    Incredible how much the big powers have struggled against the region's respective minnows this year. If we use elo as a proxy, algeria(28, 1 in caf) tied leone(113, 28 in caf), Senegal(46, 3 in caf) tied guinea(93, 19 in caf) and Ghana(67, 11 in caf) tied Gabon(93, 19 in caf). With the exception of a couple games, all these games have been decided by a goal and even the ones that weren't never were true routs. And then you look at the rosters of the underdogs, they barely have anyone abroad, while the heavy weights they compete are flushed with european players,

    For comparison, suriname(114 elo, 11 in concacaf), a team with signifcantly more european pedigree than any of the underdogs i cited go against canada(29(56 at the time), 3 in concacaf), a team that's probably less talented than senegal, algeria, and ivory coast, and they lose 5-1. And that was the worst result the canadians had that round of qualifying. In the gold cup, with a c team, they played haiti(74, 7 in concacaf) and won 4-1 off what was probably their worst performance.

    Maybe this is why caf's best teams struggle internationally relative to their talent level. The us and mexico usually aren't signifcantly more talented(if at all) than the best african sides and costa rica(who looks like they'll be replaced by canada as the third power), generally hasn't matched up player to player, yet all three consistently dominate the kinds of fixtures that caf heavyweights struggle with regionally and have outperformed said heavy weights internationally(higher elo and fifa rankings, better world cup performances). Idk if it's coaching, cohesion, pressure, organization, or all of the above but I think if caf teams truly want to challenge for a world cup, the most talented teams need to take the next step and start consistently taking care of business when they play teams they should beat. The only team i've seen flash that kind of dominance was Ghana who are currently the only african side to make b2b ko apperances at the WC.
     
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  12. vancity eagle

    vancity eagle Member+

    Apr 6, 2006
    While I dont necessarily disagree with you that sometimes African teams are less than the sum of their parts, or under performing given the talent level, I think this is a little overstated. Also there are a number of serious flaws in your analysis.

    Your first problem is comparing Suriname to teams like Gabon, Guinea, even Sierra Leone. Suriname DO NOT have more European pedigree than Gabon or Guinea. Are you serious ? You are comparing a few dutch rejects to players like Aubemayang (Arsenal) Lemina (Nice) Bouanga (St. Etienne) Keita (Liverpool) Diawara (Roma) Moriba (Leipzig) Bayo (Clermont).

    Suriname is not on the level of these teams. I doubt they are even as good as Sierra Leone. You have to understand that all those dutch players just recently joined the team and they aren't yet clicking, so they may one day be significantly better, but they haven't yet reached their potential. With a few more nations leagues and Gold Cups, they could eventually be a player in concacaf but as of now they would definately be one of the worst teams at a 24 team AFCON. No way are they close to Guinea, Gabon, or even Sierra Leone.

    The other teams you cited that Canada beat even worse like Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Bermuda are way way below the worst team at this AFCON.

    Haiti you mentioned is probably currently better than Suriname but would still EASILY be one of the worst teams if they were at the AFCON.

    As for Canada beating them 4-1, that was in the US and the game started at 6pm.

    Many of these games "the big teams" have struggled against "smaller teams" have been played at the middle of the day 2PM in sweltering heat up to 35 degrees celcius with very high humidity.

    I highly doubt Canada could play in those kind of conditions and do any better.

    You should ask yourself why the same Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria were winning easily and destroying teams (using B teams) at the Arab cup PLAYING IN AIRCONDITIONED STADIUMS, only to come to the AFCON with their stars and struggle.

    We will even have direct comparisons as Egypt who beat Sudan 5-0, and Tunisia who beat Mauritania 5-1 at the Arab cup will again play them in these very hot and humid conditons at AFCON,

    How much do you wanna bet that Egypt and Tunisia do not come close to matching those results, despite having stronger squads ?

    First off the CAF heavyweights for the most part haven't been struggling in the world cup qualifiers like they are at this tournament. The world cup matches are usually played at later times in the day.

    Morocco, Mali, Senegal, Cameroon, have all cruised. Algeria cruised despite their 2 matches with a credible Burkina Faso.

    You say USA, Mexico, and Canada have dominated their respective similar features, but this isn't really true.

    Canada 1 Honduras 1
    Mexico 2 Jamaica 1
    El Salvador 0 USA 0
    Costa Rica 0 Mexico 1
    Panama 1 Mexico 1
    Jamaica 0 Canada 0
    Panama 1 USA 0
    USA 2 Costa Rica 1
    Canada 1 Costa Rica 0
    Jamaica 1 USA 1

    these are all matches in Concacaf where clearly superior teams are struggling just as much as you claim the superior CAF teams are struggling against weaker sides. You claimed the Concacaf bigger teams are "dominating" their fixtures, but this shows otherwise.

    Its debatable that Concacaf top teams have outperformed the CAF top teams internationally. The ceiling for teams in either Confederation has been the quarter finals.

    Mexico has failed to reach the quarters since they hosted in 1970.

    Yet you have Cameroon, Ghana, and Senegal reaching the quarters way more recently and without the advantage of hosting.

    US and Costa Rica also have ONE quarter final appearance of recent, and the US goes back to 2002 same time Senegal achieved that.

    The only thing Concacaf can really boast over CAF is that Mexico regularly qualifies for the 2nd round, and maybe the US to a smaller extent, but even at that the US isn't really much more consistent at 2nd round qualifications than Nigeria is. USA has 4 since 1990 while Nigeria has 3, of course without the benefit of hosting the tournament.


    Like I said I do agree that the CAF teams should improve, but I disagree that the top teams from Concacaf are doing that much better than what you seem to claim.

    Over the last 2 decades (5 worldcups) CAF and Concacaf both have only 2 quarter final appearances.

    CAF has 5 2nd round appearances, while Concacaf has 9.

    So I would say this

    Mexico always makes the 2nd round

    behind them the US and Nigeria seem to make the 2nd round every other WC, (with the US slightly better)

    and then you have the rare Quarter final appearance from either confederation, which funnily enough does not include top consistent performers Mexico, but one offs from US, Costa Rica, Senegal, and Ghana.[/QUOTE]
     
  13. vancity eagle

    vancity eagle Member+

    Apr 6, 2006
    Like you said we weren't getting past first gear. Just seeing the game out, and at times playing down to the level of the opposition. We did what we needed to playing only our second match under a new coach. No need to over work ourselves.

    We've already topped our group and just sorting things out. I am more than happy with our progress as a team. I was expecting the worst after the end of our world cup games. I am definately now confident for this tournament and the world cup itself.
     
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  14. Game of Billions

    Nilford-On-Null F.C.
    Scotland
    Nov 16, 2021
    Scotland
    #239 Game of Billions, Jan 16, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
    55 mins: Ooooh! Sierra Leone just scored a beautiful equalising goal against Ivory!

    62 mins: Ivory 2-1 Sierra. Beautiful curling first time finish!

    77 mins: Ivory miss open goal! Been a few shocking misses in this tournament, real amateur efforts. But some amazing goals, too.
     
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  15. vancity eagle

    vancity eagle Member+

    Apr 6, 2006
    CIV go up.

    But they've been sloppy as hell in attack. They should be a few more up. They are not making their clear superiority count, and as time goes on they will be more sluggish as they are less used to the conditions than Sierra Leone who have several homebased players.
     
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  16. Game of Billions

    Nilford-On-Null F.C.
    Scotland
    Nov 16, 2021
    Scotland
    Yes, they should have killed the game ages ago. I could see Sierra getting another goal...
     
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  17. vancity eagle

    vancity eagle Member+

    Apr 6, 2006
    how do they not score ?
     
  18. vancity eagle

    vancity eagle Member+

    Apr 6, 2006
    un fu%ing believable !!!
     
  19. Game of Billions

    Nilford-On-Null F.C.
    Scotland
    Nov 16, 2021
    Scotland
    Sierra just scored! 2-2. I knew it. Ivory were pissing about, back pass, players fall over crappy pitch. WOW!

    Now this a tournament!
     
  20. Kamtedrejt

    Kamtedrejt Member+

    Internazionale Milano
    Albania
    Mar 14, 2017
    Hamburg
    Club:
    FC Internazionale Milano
    Nat'l Team:
    Albania
    How Ivory Coast didn't score four five in this is beyond me.
     
  21. vancity eagle

    vancity eagle Member+

    Apr 6, 2006
    and thats why they are eliminated from the World Cup.

    Such an unprofessional team. You dominate a team so much and keep missing chance after chance. They are not serious.
     
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  22. Game of Billions

    Nilford-On-Null F.C.
    Scotland
    Nov 16, 2021
    Scotland
    Yeah, they had so many chances to kill the game, even in the first half. I had a feeling that Sierra would poach a goal on the break,

    Ivory goalie is badly injured and an outfield player is in goal, Glenn Hoddle 1970s style! LOL!
     
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  23. vancity eagle

    vancity eagle Member+

    Apr 6, 2006

    the keeper is pretending to be injured so he doesn't have to face the wrath of his team mates.

    what an absolute calamity.
     
  24. adamsstanstansadams

    adamsstanstansadams New Member

    Ny Red Bulls
    United States
    Nov 24, 2021
    #249 adamsstanstansadams, Jan 16, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
    Sean Klaiber is getting regular minuites for an excellent Ajax in both the eridivisie and ucl. Bucker and Haps are starters for teams in the top 4 leagues, and then you have 4 players who start in the eridvisie, a player who starts in the turkish league and someone from mls. Looking at the rosters again, I'll concede that gabon and guinea have better pedigree(, though you overstate the gap by highligting their best player. That doesn't hold true with sierra leone, who, with the exception of koroma and caulker, all play for leagues that are substantially worse than even mls. If we use transfermarkt as a proxy, gambia and gabon largely outstrip suriname(much of that is their superstars), but suriname outstrip gabon. TM's not perfect, but it's used widely by teams in negotiations and is somewhat predictive and it supports what you'd see on paper.
    Their results have been solid enough, smashing an a league team in bermuda by 5 and the best result-based ranking(elo) has them only 5 spots behind sierra leone despite having had their influx of talent very recently. I think it's fair to rate gabon and gambia signifcantly higher as they have legit superstars, but suriname are signifcantly better than you give them credit for. Besides canada they've only suffered closely contested losses to a talented jamaica side and costa rica.

    I'd agree i've overstated the gap, but you're understating it.

    That...isn't really something you can support. On what basis are you saying bermuda is worse than sudan, cosmoros, or ethopia? Bermuda have the best 2 players of the 3, have performed well regionally( a league) and are ranked 10 spots higher than the lowest rated afcon team. Bermuda are more realistically good enough to not be the worst team in afcon so suriname beating them by 5 and canada beating them by 7 are both strong showings relatively speaking.
    They aren't. Suriname was much better in the gold cup and they did as well against canada's a team as haiti did against canada's c team. Haiti are ranked alot higher because suriname just had a talent infusion but since said infusion suriname have gotten better results. Haiti are better than they look on paper though because they have a track record of playing out of their skin most tournaments.
    That's a fair point.

    Weren't those more or less friendlies between b-c teams? The results in afcon have been similar to the wcq results in higher stake games, even at home.


    Eh, there are a lot more teams in wcq so it's not an apples to apples comparison. If you look at matches between afcon teams, the results are pretty similar. The majority of matches were 1 goal wins or ties.

    That's not really the same, The ocho is the final round of qualifying. It's counterpart would be the final caf playoffs. The only games that are really similar to the caf qualifying ones so far are the ones canada, panama, el salvador and honduras went through to get to the ocho and they all picked up lopsided wins in the group stages and padded massive gd in their playoff fixtures with the exception of panama who ran into curacoa, a team with comparable talent who was on better form. Canada, El salvador and Honduras all romped over their playoff opponents by several goals, all of whom had made the playoffs by winning 5 team groups.


    You can debate the extent of the gap, but it certainly exists. While the qf apperances are similar,if we go below that, the us and mexico combined have made the knockouts more times all than caf combined since the 90's despite caf getting the second most world cup spots.(the gap gets larger the further we go historically fwiw) Costa Rica is a distant third to these two but the only team you can really argue has a better track record internationally is nigeria(since they've made the ko's more times in more wc apperances). Costa rica made the qf's, made the ko's, and missed out on a third ko apperance on goal differential when grouped with the 1st and 3rd best teams in the 2002 edition. That's pretty crazy considering there are usually at least 3 to 4 more talented african teams than costa rica over the last 30 years and Costa Rica have basically had no room for error in wcq since concacaf only has had 3 or 3.5 spots(and the us and mexico take up two of them). Also if we look at overall performance with elo or fifa's results formula the us and mexico have basically lived in the top 16 to top 20 for the last 20 years and costa rica have lived inthe top 25 to top 30 and all three have higher peak ratings than any african side in that time span(highest was senegal at 19). So you basically have two teams that aren't really more talented than the best african sides matching the region on their own, and a third team that really has nothing in terms of pedigree on the best ivory coast, ghana, nigeria, or senegal teams doing better than all but one of them. And concacaf has basically rode that trident to more successful wc representation despite having the second least spots and mostly lacking the depth of talent caf has had. There's a similar story with asia where south korea and japan are usually not more talented than the best african sides but have been able to match caf's results on their lonesome(though now asia is starting to get serious depth).



    Well, also Costa Rica who has 2 and came the closest to a 3rd. Ghana is the only non-nigeria team to make 2. And both ghana, nigeria, and(senegal, ivory coast, cameroon ect) have outright had more talent than costa rica. Frankly, ivory coast have had more talent than the us for most of the 21ist century but have been completely outclassed at the wc despite comparable group difficulty.
    i mean, that's nearly twice as many ko apperances with alot less wc spots. And that's on the back of three teams, two who have been comparably talented and one whose not matched up player for player at any point.
    I think only looking at qf's is pretty flawed since they're outliers for these calibre of teams.

    I also feel it's worth pointing out that caf teams wc struggles mostly comes from failing to beat teams they should beat as opposed to underperforming against teams they shouldn't beat. EG: Ghana upset the us and do very well against uraguay but need a penalty to tie 10 man australia. Morocco tie spain and portugal but lose to a way less talented iran team. Egypt almost tie uraguay but lose to what is far and away the least talented team in saudi arabia in 2018. Ivory Coast beat japan, but then lose to greece. If caf teams just converted games they should win on paper at a reasonable clip, they'd do way, way better at the world cup since they generally do very well against "powerhouses"
     
  25. Game of Billions

    Nilford-On-Null F.C.
    Scotland
    Nov 16, 2021
    Scotland
    Amateur hour. Schoolboy football doesn't have that bungling back-pass befuddlement!

    Algeria v Equatorial might be a thriller, I think. Both teams have something to prove and will want the win.
     

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