2021-2022 UEFA Referee Discussion [R]

I agree, its all a big act and just a part of his schtick. Mind games etc.
But eventually it gets old and the fans and ownership as well as the players get fed up and turn against him. His time in jobs seems to be getting shorter each time.

PH

 

Jesus. What a waste of time. All that to keep a player on the pitch (who accepted that he should be sent off) basically on a technicality? It's an empty net and the ball is on the six. Yeah, there is another defender right there, but he's not stopping him from tapping it into an empty net.

Example, #10,989 of the juice just not being worth the squeeze with VAR.

5 minute stoppage and multiple yellow cards issued for a play that would barely make more than a 10 second discussion if the decision wasn't over turned.

If this was the World Cup, there would be an entire segment devoted to asking "was VAR right to intervene?"

 

Wow. I just cannot fathom that as a clear error (indeed, I think the send off was correct).

It joins many other clear examples of how applying VAR to judgment calls is never going to end controversy.

 

Here’s the match report. Uzuni cautioned for stopping a promising attack. Nine total cautions in the match (3 for Granada, 6 for Villarreal).

 

Why is there less stoppage time in CL matches, then PL? (Watching Chelsea v. Lille and :22 seconds were added to first half with a goal scored).

not debating who does it correctly, but I never see a PL match with less that a minute added in first half and 3 in second.

 

Weston McKennie gets two metatarsals broken on this tackle in Villarreal / Juventus. Judging from the Twitter thread, no card was issued nor even a foul called.

Weston McKennie came off w/ an ankle injury suffered during this rough challenge from Pervis Estupinan.

Would expect him to miss a few matches during Juve’s busy upcoming schedule. Here’s hoping he can recover in time for the big March #USMNT qualifiers, which are a month away. pic.twitter.com/IKXdRmRWqi

— Ives Galarcep (@SoccerByIves) February 22, 2022

I have to say I'm not surprised. Contrary to everything I thought I learned from this Ref Forum the last decade, it's starting to seem like "I got the ball" is becoming a defense. And while the contact was obviously missed here, it's increasingly the case that the contact determines the card, rather than the reckless or dangerous nature of the tackle itself.

 

Now of course I'm not a referee. And apparently I've been a poor student of this forum for years.
But, honestly, my understanding from following this forum off and on for years is that leaving your feet to throw yourself on your opponent's legs, with no chance of getting the ball except by crashing through your opponent, is that this is a reckless tackle, a yellow card offense, with or without VAR showing exactly the point of contact and the medical probabilities of injury.
I know I'm starting to sound like some old guy at the pub, but I can't help thinking, "Game is gone" (tee-hee!)

 

That's not a foul. That's just bad luck. You're looking at the result and not the action.

Let me ask you, are you giving that with the benefit of replay in the 90th minute in the penalty area?

 

There’s also the Rabiot YC around 72’ plus mass confrontation. Potentially SFP, though contact was glancing rather than hard and flush. No OFR

 

Sorry if this isn't the right place to ask and is definitely a stupid question but it comes to my mind as I'm watching the CL games from today at 2x speed. What do you guys think would happen if you dropped a PRO national referee or even, just to humor me, a very experienced regional referee into the center of a Champions League game or any other international game? Where would the deficiency become evident? Would it be a fitness and positioning issue? Not having the foul recognition (calling too many or too few), player management? All of the above, where the game deteriorates into an utter farce?

The reason I ask this is because, keeping in mind I'm an idiot and also don't have high technical understanding of the game, it feels like to me that as you get higher and higher up, the game may actually become somewhat easier for very good refs because players are usually much more technical and precise with their actions, so the game actually gets easier to call and manage vs. sloppy high youth and low level pro or semi-pro adult leagues? Or am I just being completely blinded by slow motion replays, VAR, and just watching them manage things very well and thinking "well any good ref can do that".

 

As I said, perhaps I've been a poor student of this Forum for years because obviously the consensus is this is a trifling foul at most and always has been. So I'll try to start recalibrating my sense of what is a foul and what isn't in the Laws of the Game.

I'm unconvinced this tackle is inherently harmless and that it's only "bad luck" that McKennie's foot was broken. Why have I watched, over the years, defenders try to make a point of timing their tackles to get their leg or legs in front of the ball to block it when they can just hurl themselves through an opponent's leg, or block the opponent's leg, en route to the ball? In a pre-VAR world, how can a referee be sure the defender got the ball first by milliseconds (when he or she doesn't call a foul) rather than the defender got the opponent first by milliseconds? Even in the the VAR era, in games played without VAR, how does the referee confidently make that assessment? Are we to expect fouls to be called fundamentally different in games with VAR versus without VAR?

I should think the point of "leaving your feet" is a matter of gravity. I mean, that's what a good deal of pro wrestling is about, isn't it? The audience understands the force of someone leaving their feet and slamming down on their opponent.

And while casually we talk about tackling opponents in soccer, isn't the difference between association football and American pointy-ball that in American pointy-ball, you tackle the opposing player while in association football technically you tackle the ball?

I should think if Estupian completely missed the ball, this would be a clear and obvious foul for the contact, for tackling the opponent and not the ball. So it really does come down to
a) "I got the ball"
b) a commentator saying "he was attempting to play the ball"
And I thought the standard refereeing response was, "So what? You also got the opposing player and you were always going to get the opposing player based on the nature of the tackle" .

 

I think the biggest factor to keep in mind is that the players all have some familiarity with the referees they see in the later stages of the CL and vice versa. To use some names from the past, a Kuipers or a Collina will make a call and have it accepted because of who they are the and the reputations they have earned, whereas your US National Ref without that reputation could make the same call and get eaten alive. As a former MLS and FIFA referee, A League (2nd division games in the US in the late 90's were harder to referee because you did not have the same familiarity with the players that you had in MLS. There are two parts to refereeing at the professional level--the technical and the management piece. What sets the top referees apart is the management piece--their decisions are accepted by the participants with much less fuss than those without a similar pedigree.

 

The only example I can cite is with a completely different sport. When I was a kid one of my friend’s father was a Major League Baseball umpire. And, when he was in NY or Philly, we would go to the games with him. He exuded confidence, almost borderline arrogance, at the ballpark. He was IN CHARGE. We can all be fit, recognize the foul, and call it. But, can we all take charge? And, I think sometimes that’s what prevents the climb up the ladder. The ability to politic extends both on and off the field, too. Plus, like any job, you have to have some breaks go your way. But, managing the event becomes paramount.

 

Not Champions League, but the experiment has been done when MLS locked out the regular referees.
And in hand-egg (NFL!), the same when their officials were on strike. The deficiencies were obvious in both cases.
What Midwest Ref said is correct. And it is why referees at those levels are introduced gradually in order to establish their credentials and abilities.
Furthermore, every week we can often see some of the deficiencies you mention in some of the EPL referees who never made it to the FIFA list.

PH

 

The coach of the red team is not very good about staying in his technical area.

 

Nice card Ajax/Benfica guy

 

Interesting, that's sort of what I figured, that is wasn't so much fitness or foul recognition, but player management. I've experienced that in some of my high level youth and adult amateur games as well, where if the referee has numerous experiences with a team and they view him well (sometimes I get this honor), the players and coaches react better to their game. But then again, repeated exposure to those teams can also cause backfire if they don't like you and have them referencing past games you did of theirs in a negative way.

The funny thing is that this arrogance is actually what makes some refs despised, that they "make the game about themselves". Like that Spanish ref Antonio something, he is very animated, and while people recognize he is a great referee, his theatrics rub a lot the wrong way.

I never saw what happened in MLS, what happened? If PRO had a lockout, were regionals doing the games?

And the NFL, I don't fault the replacement refs at all. American football is the hardest sport on Earth to officiate, and when you have a full contact sport like that at that speed and intensity, going from officiating college to the NFL game is jumping off the grand canyon.

 

Honestly....don't really care. I'm looking at it from the fans viewpoint....

1) Give the ref a mic so that he can explain what is being reviewed and why, like rugby and NFL officials do. Even NBA officials explain why plays are being reviewed.

2) Complete the review quickly and communicate the results of the review verbally using the ref's microphone.

Again....if it takes more than a minute for the play to be reviewed, then it is NOT a "clear and obvious error", and the on-field call should stand.