2021-2022 UEFA Referee Discussion [R]

Mikael_Referee · Sep 29, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

The near consensus everywhere on referee forums seems to be that it's a red card, presumably--or almost certainly--because of the result and where the contact is.

But I just don't see it. I'm hanging my hat on nuance here, but it can't just be the result that matters. Gana comes into the challenge and puts his leg in a place where De Bruyne can't possibly adjust his challenge to avoid. So the question becomes, in my mind, whether or not De Bruyne's challenge has excessive force or inherently endangers the opponent's safety. It clearly does not have excessive force (unless you think De Bruyne has deliberately pushed his leg into Gana once initial contact occurs). Did De Bruyne's challenge endanger Gana's safety or did the actions of both contribute to any endangerment? I obviously have an opinion that seems to contradict the consensus. De Bruyne is reaching with his leg, wins the ball, and flicks it away. Gana is also reaching to win the ball, does not get their first, and his leg slides under where De Bruyne has to place his leg back on the turf. Has De Bruyne acted with complete disregard and to the dangers to and consequences for his opponent? Sure. But that's a yellow card. It's the definition of reckless. If you tell me De Bruyne used excessive force or the challenge itself, in a vacuum, endangered Gana's safety, I'd say you're wrong.

It's very easy to watch that play in slo-mo and say "studs into calf/shin, 100% red card!" Watch that in real-time and that's not how it looks at all. It's a bang-bang play where Gana gets his leg in an unfortunate position right at the last moment. It's been made very clear that VAR was not designed to give red cards for that, so I think the VAR non-intervention is good and what we should expect. And, because I'm hanging my hat on nuance, I'll preemptively say this is different from the Danielson red card at EURO where the player launched himself into a situation where the type of contact he made with his opponent, despite getting the ball first, was inevitable or expected (and completely avoidable if he challenged in a different way). Given how Gana went into this, I don't think you can say the same thing here.
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So it's not just me then .

Thanks for your post - personally, I'd expect UEFA to rate this as an 8/10 on their RAP scale, where both YC and RC are acceptable calls / supported by the VMOs.

Barciur · Sep 29, 2021

I heard people complaining about a penalty given - possible handball other way or a stomp beforehand? Anybody have relevant video or heard anything from this same game about this?

code1390 · Sep 29, 2021

Mikael_Referee said: ↑

So it's not just me then .

Thanks for your post - personally, I'd expect UEFA to rate this as an 8/10 on their RAP scale, where both YC and RC are acceptable calls / supported by the VMOs.
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That's where I fell. Feels like the force is low enough for it to be an 8 (probaby 8+). In a FIFA event though...

code1390 · Sep 29, 2021

Barciur said: ↑

I heard people complaining about a penalty given - possible handball other way or a stomp beforehand? Anybody have relevant video or heard anything from this same game about this?
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It's the PK against Milan. The ball might have been propelled by the attackers hand a few frames before it made contact with the defender. But it's really tough to pick out.

Mikael_Referee · Sep 29, 2021

AremRed said: ↑

You like that as SFP? Force is low, plus player pulls his feet back. Or does studs+really high override that for you?
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Bit late to this, apologies.

Yes, for me this is a categorically excellent decision. The Kairat player makes a very dangerous studs contact (and at that moment his leg is still loaded and not pulled away), you can see from the screenshot below.

I would genuinely go so far as to say this is one of the best SFP calls I've seen in a rather long time indeed; respect.

---

I watched most of Visser's debut yesterday evening, and while I guess everyone saw the two penalty area incidents in quick succession, on the whole, the Belgian ref gave a positive impression.

Sure, some of his weaknesses were visible (a clear freekick whistled after some hesitation leading to a YC for mobbing), but his decisions were very proficient as usual.

Besides the aforementioned penalty sequence, the game was not really very challenging. Visser merited a second CL GS appearance, the first one was successful.

MassachusettsRef · Sep 29, 2021

Mikael_Referee said: ↑

Yes, for me this is a categorically excellent decision. The Kairat player makes a very dangerous studs contact (and at that moment his leg is still loaded and not pulled away), you can see from the screenshot below.

I would genuinely go so far as to say this is one of the best SFP calls I've seen in a rather long time indeed; respect.
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Also, to juxtapose this incident against the contemporary discussion around De Bruyne... why on earth is his leg that high to begin with? Remember that he was tackling at a ball that was literally on the turf when he begin his challenge.

So with De Bruyne, you have more "brutal" contact but resulting from what is more or less a normal or expected challenge in that scenario (though still reckless by our definitions). With the Kairat/Visser clip above, you have less brutal contact, but completely unnecessary and a result only of a tackle whose nature should almost never be attempted in the game. I know which one I prefer to punish more severely. It's similar, too, to the comparisons with the tackles from behind trap or crush trailing legs.

I think the whole reaction around the De Bruyne foul is indicative of this world that has been created where only the result matters and the result of studs flush against anything above the foot is seen as the worst possible outcome. I don't know how we got here, exactly, but we took a wrong turn along the way.

code1390 · Sep 29, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

...result of studs flush against anything above of the foot is seen as the worst possible outcome. I don't know how we got here, exactly, but we took a wrong turn along the way.
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We can carry that onto the "ankle pinning" tackle from behind that we've been talking about lately. There's no studs contact on the shin and the player kept their foot down so how can it be a red?

RefIADad · Sep 29, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

The near consensus everywhere on referee forums seems to be that it's a red card, presumably--or almost certainly--because of the result and where the contact is.

But I just don't see it. I'm hanging my hat on nuance here, but it can't just be the result that matters. Gana comes into the challenge and puts his leg in a place where De Bruyne can't possibly adjust his challenge to avoid. So the question becomes, in my mind, whether or not De Bruyne's challenge has excessive force or inherently endangers the opponent's safety. It clearly does not have excessive force (unless you think De Bruyne has deliberately pushed his leg into Gana once initial contact occurs). Did De Bruyne's challenge endanger Gana's safety or did the actions of both contribute to any endangerment? I obviously have an opinion that seems to contradict the consensus. De Bruyne is reaching with his leg, wins the ball, and flicks it away. Gana is also reaching to win the ball, does not get their first, and his leg slides under where De Bruyne has to place his leg back on the turf. Has De Bruyne acted with complete disregard of the dangers to and consequences for his opponent? Sure. But that's a yellow card. It's the definition of reckless. If you tell me De Bruyne used excessive force or the challenge itself, in a vacuum, endangered Gana's safety, I'd say you're wrong.

It's very easy to watch that play in slo-mo and say "studs into calf/shin, 100% red card!" Watch that in real-time and that's not how it looks at all. It's a bang-bang play where Gana gets his leg in an unfortunate position right at the last moment. It's been made very clear that VAR was not designed to give red cards for that, so I think the VAR non-intervention is good and what we should expect. And, because I'm hanging my hat on nuance, I'll preemptively say this is different from the Danielson red card at EURO where the player launched himself into a situation where the type of contact he made with his opponent, despite getting the ball first, was inevitable or expected (and completely avoidable if he challenged in a different way). Given how Gana went into this, I don't think you can say the same thing here.
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Thank you for articulating my own thoughts a lot better than I could have. Even watching the play several times and in slow motion, I kept thinking to myself that it was two players both coming in for the ball. Yes, KDB gets him high on the shin. But both guys were coming in with speed. This could have been a collision of the soles of shoes just as much as the situation that actually happened.

I thought a caution was the right call at live speed, and I still think so despite the location of the contact. I realize others will disagree.

MassachusettsRef · Sep 29, 2021

There's a VAR OFR at 32' of Salzburg v Lille that I am absolutely shocked by.

MassachusettsRef · Sep 29, 2021

Penalty stands. Good. Can't believe the VAR put him in that position.

MassachusettsRef · Sep 29, 2021

There's also a tackle at 38' in Wolfsburg that I think is worth looking at if we ever get a clip. I think it's a borderline red card, resulting in a serious injury. No foul was called.

MassachusettsRef · Sep 29, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Penalty stands. Good. Can't believe the VAR put him in that position.
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Penalty decision that prompted the OFR.

https://streamja.com/GAjZb

socal lurker · Sep 29, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Penalty decision that prompted the OFR.

https://streamja.com/GAjZb
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but he got ball!!

MassachusettsRef · Sep 29, 2021

This OFR led to a game-tying penalty and a 2CT: https://streamja.com/2z39z

Clear and obvious, right?

Orange14 · Sep 29, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

This OFR led to a game-tying penalty and a 2CT: https://streamja.com/2z39z

Clear and obvious, right?
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Wow, this one is too bizarre.

socal lurker · Sep 29, 2021

Orange14 said: ↑

Wow, this one is too bizarre.
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I know. His studs touched an opponent, so that has to be a straight red!

But still, VAR removes controversy from the Game…

kolabear · Sep 29, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

This OFR led to a game-tying penalty and a 2CT: https://streamja.com/2z39z

Clear and obvious, right?
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German referee commentators Collinas Erben (no connection with Collina) seems to agree it was a botched call after VAR review. Quoted by Derek Rae. It's unbelievable to me that this is where the game is, that a player can't make the most normal and minimal of follow-throughs on a clearance.

Referee: Georgi Kabakov (Bulgaria)
VAR: Kevin Blom (Netherlands)

Zum Strafstoß bei #WOBSEV: Geahndet wurde der Streiftreffer mit der Sohle am Schienbein, zu dem es nach dem Spielen des Balles beim Ausschwingen kam. Diesen Kontakt hat der Referee vermutlich nicht wahrgenommen (»serious missed incident«). (1/2) https://t.co/mvGWhNS1VZ
— Collinas Erben (@CollinasErben) September 29, 2021

translation:

To the penalty kick #WOBSEV : The punishment was the grazing hit with the sole of the shin, which occurred after playing the ball when swinging out. The referee probably did not notice this contact ("serious missed incident"). ( 1/2)
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Der Referee hat das als rücksichtslos bewertet, daher Gelb-Rot. Allerdings war der Kontakt kaum zu vermeiden, weil der Angreifer sein Bein zum Gegner streckt, ohne den Ball spielen zu können. Guilavogui ist hier eigentlich kein Vorwurf zu machen. (af) (2/2)
— Collinas Erben (@CollinasErben) September 29, 2021

translation:

The referee rated this as inconsiderate, hence yellow-red. However, the contact could hardly be avoided because the attacker stretched his leg towards the opponent without being able to play the ball. Guilavogui cannot really be blamed here. (af) (2/2)
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Nachtrag: Was Dale hier schreibt, wird vermutlich den Ausschlag für die Entscheidung gegeben haben. Dass es Guilavogui war, der den Kontakt initiiert hat, kann man aber bezweifeln. https://t.co/IgYePB0bRi
— Collinas Erben (@CollinasErben) September 29, 2021

translation:

Addendum: What Dale writes here will probably have been the decisive factor in the decision. However, one can doubt that it was Guilavogui who initiated the contact.
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refinDC · Sep 29, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Penalty decision that prompted the OFR.

https://streamja.com/GAjZb
Click to expand...

Was the OFR for the foul in the APP? Or for the penalty itself?

allan_park · Sep 30, 2021

refinDC said: ↑

Was the OFR for the foul in the APP? Or for the penalty itself?
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You beat me to it - that was the case. VAR wanted the Referee to look at the potential "off the ball foul" by the attacker in the build-up, which I think was a legitimate question.

allan_park · Sep 30, 2021

Orange14 said: ↑

Wow, this one is too bizarre.
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Yes, it is. But, only until you see who the VAR is. Then, suddenly, it makes sense.

MassachusettsRef · Sep 30, 2021

allan_park said: ↑

You beat me to it - that was the case. VAR wanted the Referee to look at the potential "off the ball foul" by the attacker in the build-up, which I think was a legitimate question.
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Didn’t they look at both, though? I thought I saw him looking at the penalty itself while at the monitor.

Either way, did they show any good angle to support the APP foul?

Orange14 · Sep 30, 2021

allan_park said: ↑

Yes, it is. But, only until you see who the VAR is. Then, suddenly, it makes sense.
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LOL! I know the VAR quite well from his Dutch CR work. I don't rate him very highly as a CR. He is perhaps the weakest of all those who get UEFA matches.

allan_park · Sep 30, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Didn’t they look at both, though? I thought I saw him looking at the penalty itself while at the monitor.
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I was hoping you hadn't noticed that!

I think, having gone to the monitor to look at the potential earlier foul, they decided to check the actual penalty award as well. And, as we all know, once you start looking at ANY incident, you can start to have doubts about everything!

allan_park · Sep 30, 2021

Orange14 said: ↑

LOL! I know the VAR quite well from his Dutch CR work. I don't rate him very highly as a CR. He is perhaps the weakest of all those who get UEFA matches.
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As regular readers of this forum will know, you wont get an argument from me on this one!

I really don't like criticising my fellow officials, and generally I don't think I do, but for this particular individual, I am afraid I have made an exception a number of times!

Orange14 · Sep 30, 2021

IIRC some years ago Blom got sent down the the Eerste Division for totally screwing up in an Eredivisie match. I think he was down there for two matches before being moved back up.