2021-2022 UEFA Referee Discussion [R]

RefIADad · Sep 24, 2021

balu said: ↑

Crazy end to Cadiz - Barcelona:

Minute 94:50 with 5 minutes of stoppage time of a 0-0 match, with Barca down to 10 men after a contentious 2YC on 65'. Cadiz races forward on a counter. There is a second ball in the Barca box, it seems that ter Stegen had a chance to kick it away earlier but didn't. As Barca players race back into the box to defend, Busquets kicks the second ball towards the Cadiz player with the first ball, hitting him. Del Cerro Grande blows his whistle. Cadiz crosses the ball into the box and another player converts it into the goal, seemingly no offside. As the ball enters the goal, del Cerro Grande is already showing Busquets yellow. Official reason: "Kicking a second ball that was on the field at the time towards an opponent in possession of the ball, hitting the ball against the opponents and thus interfering with play." The restart is a free-kick at the spot where the second ball hit the Cadiz player. Heavy protests from Koeman, who is shown red.

Barca will appeal both the 2YC and Busquet's yellow.

http://www.fcbarcelona.com/en/news/...st-de-jong-red-and-yellow-for-sergio-busquets
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I know people are up in arms about the 2nd yellow to de Jong. I’m not. It’s a good call. De Jong jumps into the challenge and makes pretty heavy contact. Yes, he got a bit of the ball. But he jumped into the challenge and got a lot of the player. It’s a cautionable challenge.

Orange14 · Sep 24, 2021

I was watching the game in real time and thought it was correct as well. Maybe the RC against Koeman was harsh but he was wound up tight because the team is not very good and the 2nd YC and sending off of Frenkie de Jong. The ESPN match announcers didn't like the YC but I can see in real time why it was given. It was reckless and IMO more than a 50/50 call for a card. Perhaps if they used VAR for YC cards (and I am NOT advocating this), it might have been overturned.

RefIADad · Sep 24, 2021

Orange14 said: ↑

I was watching the game in real time and thought it was correct as well. Maybe the RC against Koeman was harsh but he was wound up tight because the team is not very good and the 2nd YC and sending off of Frenkie de Jong. The ESPN match announcers didn't like the YC but I can see in real time why it was given. It was reckless and IMO more than a 50/50 call for a card. Perhaps if they used VAR for YC cards (and I am NOT advocating this), it might have been overturned.
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Something tells me that the truth is probably different than Koeman's interpretation of the discussion with the fourth official. I know he's coaching for his job right now.

RedStar91 · Sep 24, 2021

RefIADad said: ↑

I know people are up in arms about the 2nd yellow to de Jong. I’m not. It’s a good call. De Jong jumps into the challenge and makes pretty heavy contact. Yes, he got a bit of the ball. But he jumped into the challenge and got a lot of the player. It’s a cautionable challenge.
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It's not. That's never a foul at the professional level, much less a caution. He nicks the ball and then pulls his leg back to not injure his opponent. He is showing as much care as possible.

If the referee calls that in the penalty area, VAR is sending that down and we restart with a drop ball.

LampLighter · Sep 24, 2021

RedStar91 said: ↑

If the referee calls that in the penalty area, VAR is sending that down and we restart with a drop ball.
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You hope for that, it won't necessarily happen like that.

MassachusettsRef · Sep 24, 2021

LampLighter said: ↑

You hope for that, it won't necessarily happen like that.
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I won’t get into the debate about whether or not he’s right about it being a foul at all and whether it should be. But he’s absolutely right about VAR if current instructions are followed in most major leagues. That would 100% be overturned in MLS and the EPL and the Bundesliga. The question might be a bit more open in La Liga, which is relevant here. But that tackle is not deciding a UCL or WC Final. VAR would intervene.

LampLighter · Sep 24, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

I won’t get into the debate about whether or not he’s right about it being a foul at all and whether it should be. But he’s absolutely right about VAR if current instructions are followed in most major leagues. That would 100% be overturned in MLS and the EPL and the Bundesliga. The question might be a bit more open in La Liga, which is relevant here. But that tackle is not deciding a UCL or WC Final. VAR would intervene.
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But, we've seen so many times when that hasn't happened. When VAR ALSO gets the call wrong. Regardless of instruction.

Hope is the correct wording here, because I left it open.

MassachusettsRef · Sep 24, 2021

LampLighter said: ↑

But, we've seen so many times when that hasn't happened. When VAR ALSO gets the call wrong. Regardless of instruction.

Hope is the correct wording here, because I left it open.
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If the argument is an individual VAR can screw up, sure. That’s always possible.

I’m not sure it’s terribly interesting to debate what is supposed to happen if we are always couching it or caveating it with the possibility that an individual official might screw up. The point here was that a tackle given as a 2CT would be overturned via VAR if it was given as a penalty. And that’s a sound point.

LampLighter · Sep 24, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

If the argument is an individual VAR can screw up, sure. That’s always possible.
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It was more of a flippant remark, made sense at the time.

soccerref69420 · Sep 24, 2021

I would really like to get peoples' opinions on if they feel that was the correct call or not. I can understand why a VAR would overturn it if it was given as a penalty because of getting the ball and all that, but it was a field play and a player already on a caution jumping into the challenge with both legs off the ground.

Was this a case of the way it looked being a lot worse than the actual play, where perhaps the ref saw his jumping in both legs off the ground, and if he did any sort of decent contact on the player then he was planning to caution him for it, even in this case that he got the ball first? I feel like leagues have been trying to legislate those "two legs off the ground lunging challenges" out of the game.

MassachusettsRef · Sep 24, 2021

soccerref69420 said: ↑

I would really like to get peoples' opinions on if they feel that was the correct call or not. I can understand why a VAR would overturn it if it was given as a penalty because of getting the ball and all that, but it was a field play and a player already on a caution jumping into the challenge with both legs off the ground.

Was this a case of the way it looked being a lot worse than the actual play, where perhaps the ref saw his jumping in both legs off the ground, and if he did any sort of decent contact on the player then he was planning to caution him for it, even in this case that he got the ball first? I feel like leagues have been trying to legislate those "two legs off the ground lunging challenges" out of the game.
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There's not a perfect answer here that is going to satisfy your question, I think.

The way I see it, when considering the potential foul nature of a challenge like this, you can go back to some of the stuff we talked about with the Danielson SFP red card at EUROs. Danielson was guilty of SFP, despite playing the ball clearly before any contact, because of the nature of the challenge itself and the fact that him launching himself in the manner he did made it impossible to mitigate the consequences that would come from contact. And the contact was a logical consequence of what he chose to do.

If forced to choose here, with the benefit of replay, I'd likely side more with @RedStar91 and point out that despite the initial airborne nature of De Jong's challenge, he plays it away cleanly before his opponent even arrives to challenge and--perhaps most importantly--the way his opponent presents his right leg for the (late) challenge on his part isn't exactly fair. Pay close attention to how that right foot gets where it gets. Unlike the Danielson play and other similar incidents, the player in question could have avoided contact rather easily--he chose not to.

And I think that's why you're not going to get a perfect answer here. This is astronomically high level stuff, so we shouldn't take away too much for our everyday games. This is a team playing Barcelona at home, trying to steal a point or more, and a player who knows his opponent got booked 3 minutes earlier. I don't think I need to be labeled a cynic to posit that the Cadiz player continued into this contact because he knew how it would look and and he knew De Jong was already on a yellow. There's more than a bit of the vaunted Dark Arts, in my opinion, at play here.

In 99.9% of games, you don't have a player like De Jong who can do this with his body at that speed in a fair manner. So the tell-tale signs of an aiborne lunge like this should, yes, have you at default "foul + yellow." But there's a reason guys like this play where they play and make the money they do. Some are good enough to pull this off. It's one of the things that makes officiating at this level so difficult. If this play happens and De Jong is fractions of a second later or comes in with a few iotas more of force or hits his opponent higher up... yup, yellow card all day. But I think he did just enough to execute this without committing a foul. Unfortunately, his opponent knew what was going on and was aware of the bigger picture...

soccerref69420 · Sep 24, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

There's not a perfect answer here that is going to satisfy your question, I think.

The way I see it, when considering the potential foul nature of a challenge like this, you can go back to some of the stuff we talked about with the Danielson SFP red card at EUROs. Danielson was guilty of SFP, despite playing the ball clearly before any contact, because of the nature of the challenge itself and the fact that him launching himself in the manner he did made it impossible to mitigate the consequences that would come from contact. And the contact was a logical consequence of what he chose to do.

If forced to choose here, with the benefit of replay, I'd likely side more with @RedStar91 and point out that despite the initial airborne nature of De Jong's challenge, he plays it away cleanly before his opponent even arrives to challenge and--perhaps most importantly--the way his opponent presents his right leg for the (late) challenge on his part isn't exactly fair. Pay close attention to how that right foot gets where it gets. Unlike the Danielson play and other similar incidents, the player in question could have avoided contact rather easily--he chose not to.

And I think that's why you're not going to get a perfect answer here. This is astronomically high level stuff, so we shouldn't take away too much for our everyday games. This is a team playing Barcelona at home, trying to steal a point or more, and a player who knows his opponent got booked 3 minutes earlier. I don't think I need to be labeled a cynic to posit that the Cadiz player continued into this contact because he knew how it would look and and he knew De Jong was already on a yellow. There's more than a bit of the vaunted Dark Arts, in my opinion, at play here.

In 99.9% of games, you don't have a player like De Jong who can do this with his body at that speed in a fair manner. So the tell-tale signs of an aiborne lunge like this should, yes, have you at default "foul + yellow." But there's a reason guys like this play where they play and make the money they do. Some are good enough to pull this off. It's one of the things that makes officiating at this level so difficult. If this play happens and De Jong is fractions of a second later or comes in with a few iotas more of force or hits his opponent higher up... yup, yellow card all day. But I think he did just enough to execute this without committing a foul. Unfortunately, his opponent knew what was going on and was aware of the bigger picture...
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I highly appreciate your time and thoughtful response. I am of the camp that the actual challenge in of itself (i.e. getting the ball first and the contact with the opponent) isn't actually a foul, but it was strictly the two legged airborne lunge that put the referee on alert to prepare for that yellow if he put any sort of contact on the player.

And also yes, I did notice that the opponent seemed to plant that right leg quite a bit in front of him like he knew where De Jong would land so he wanted there to be contact. Now of course that's with the aid of slow motion replay; if this happened in a match I was doing where I see it at full speed I would absolutely give a yellow card.

RefIADad · Sep 25, 2021

soccerref69420 said: ↑

but it was strictly the two legged airborne lunge that put the referee on alert to prepare for that yellow if he put any sort of contact on the player.
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Based on my experience (which is obviously way, way less than that of del Cerro Grande), this is where I landed as well. If I'm refereeing a game, the moment a player goes airborne like that I'm on high alert. I do fully understand that a professional has much more control of his actions than your typical U17 player, but at the same time that professional player is playing at a much faster pace.

I can buy no yellow card here, but even at the professional level and understanding the Cadiz player did leave a leg in, it's pretty hard for me to accept that this isn't even a foul.

Orange14 · Sep 25, 2021

If you look at the positioning of the CR, his view is from the rear of the tackle. He sees de Jong go in with two feet up and as noted this may lead to the YC. Would it have been overturned by VAR? It's quite likely as he would have several views of the play and could see exactly the magnitude of the contact (marginal) and that de Jong clearly got the ball first. Do we want VAR to intervene in case such as this one? If so, where do you draw the line on the use of VAR? It was a difficult call by the CR and in retrospect perhaps the wrong one but he has to officiate under match conditions and in that case it was a marginal YC to be sure.

I agree with @MassachusettsRef that there is no perfect answer here.

soccerref69420 · Sep 25, 2021

Orange14 said: ↑

Do we want VAR to intervene in case such as this one? If so, where do you draw the line on the use of VAR?
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I'm just a grassroots pleb and lots of users here know significantly more about refereeing than me and my opinion is likely shared by few people. But for me personally, I just want the big (non)calls to be correct, so I would like VAR used whenever necessary. I'm not saying review needs to completely take over the game like it sort of has in the NFL, but I feel like any sort of consequential decision of PK/no PK, RC, 2YC > red, even just every YC issued should go to VAR review.

Enough of the "clear and obvious error" stuff. Enough complaining about it adding delays to the game. Just get the call right. But then again, the soccer world has no problem whining endlessly about how "VAR has ruined the game" (especially with stoppages), but then at the same time complain about how bad the refs are like they don't want video assistance to get them right. They can't have it both ways.

balu · Sep 27, 2021

UCL Matchday 2

Leipzig - Brugge: VINCIC (SVN) [Valeri (ITA)]
PSG - Man City: DEL CERRO GRANDE (ESP) [Martinez Munuera (ESP)]
Milan - Atletico: Cakir (TUR) [Bitigen (TUR)]
Porto - Liverpool: KARASEV (RUS) [Dankert (GER)]
Ajax - Besiktas: BASTIEN (FRA) [Delajod (FRA), AVAR: Irrati (ITA)]
Dortmund - Sporting Lisbon: JOVANOVIC (SRB) [van Boekel (NED)]
Shakhtar - Inter: KOVACS (ROU) [Fritz (GER), AVAR: Hategan (ROU)]
Real Madrid - Sheriff: VISSER (BEL) [TURPIN (FRA)]

Benfica - Barcelona: ORSATO (ITA) [Irrati (ITA), AVAR: Kavanagh (ENG)]
Bayern - Dynamo Kiev: GUIDA (ITA) [Mariani (ITA)]
Atalanta - Young Boys: BRYCH (GER) [Stegemann (GER)]
Man Utd - Villareal: ZWAYER (GER) [Dingert (GER)]
Salzburg - Lille: UMUT MELER (TUR) [Kalkavan (TUR)]
Wolfsburg - Sevilla: KABAKOV (BUL) [Blom (NED)]
Zenit - Malmo: SIDIROPOULOS (GRE) [Sanchez Martinez (ESP)]
Juventus - Chelsea: GIL MANZANO (ESP) [Martinez Munuera (ESP)]

Del Cerro Grande with the marquee, Cakir and Gil Manzano with big clashes. Zwayer has the rematch of last year's EL Final with the home side under pressure. Orsato also with a pressure match for Barcelona as they look to get their campaign started.

MassachusettsRef · Sep 27, 2021

Visser is a name that wasn't really on my radar for a debut. First Belgian since De Bleeckere? Or have I forgotten a name in between?

balu · Sep 27, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Visser is a name that wasn't really on my radar for a debut. First Belgian since De Bleeckere? Or have I forgotten a name in between?
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This website agrees with you: http://new.in-24.com/sport/soccer/204574.html

"Lawrence Visser is the first Belgian referee to officiate in the Champions League since Frank De Bleeckere in 2011."

Mikael_Referee · Sep 27, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Visser is a name that wasn't really on my radar for a debut.
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Pretty expected I'd say, he had an EL KO stage game last season.

Visser basically takes (very) good decisions in his games but is one of the most deficient refs at the top UEFA level in terms of natural authority who I can remember (since Lannoy, maybe).

Decisions such as the really excellent SFP call he made in Armenia last August make me want to like him (clip), but he honestly doesn't really convince me (at all). I find his presence just too weak and he was overcome in the two really challenging games which I saw him handle (see this, no VAR in operation here).

In general, UEFA's management of Belgian referees is pretty curious, to be honest - they pushed Visser very hard, so now they have their first CL ref since De Bleeckere, and favour a rather average referee, Lambrechts, over big talents Verboomen and especially Van Driessche.

Anyway - I wish Lawrence Visser all the best for his debut in Madrid.

AremRed · Sep 27, 2021

Mikael_Referee said: ↑

Pretty expected I'd say, he had an EL KO stage game last season.

Visser basically takes (very) good decisions in his games but is one of the most deficient refs at the top UEFA level in terms of natural authority who I can remember (since Lannoy, maybe).

Decisions such as the really excellent SFP call he made in Armenia last August make me want to like him (clip), but he honestly doesn't really convince me (at all). I find his presence just too weak and he was overcome in the two really challenging games which I saw him handle (see this, no VAR in operation here).

In general, UEFA's management of Belgian referees is pretty curious, to be honest - they pushed Visser very hard, so now they have their first CL ref since De Bleeckere, and favour a rather average referee, Lambrechts, over big talents Verboomen and especially Van Driessche.

Anyway - I wish Lawrence Visser all the best for his debut in Madrid.
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You like that as SFP? Force is low, plus player pulls his feet back. Or does studs+really high override that for you?

code1390 · Sep 28, 2021

Cakir never afraid to pull the trigger with a 2YC.

The studs did catch part of the foot, but it's one that quite a few refs don't give as a 2YC IMO.

Orange14 · Sep 29, 2021

I really don't understand why VAR did not request a review by the CR here. This clearly should have been a RC for de Bruyne (it certainly would be in the Dutch league).

KDB yellow that should have been a red pic.twitter.com/lGcIGGA54s
— Hdhehehsdhsh (@James2390421) September 28, 2021

AremRed · Sep 29, 2021

Orange14 said: ↑

I really don't understand why VAR did not request a review by the CR here. This clearly should have been a RC for de Bruyne (it certainly would be in the Dutch league).

KDB yellow that should have been a red pic.twitter.com/lGcIGGA54s
— Hdhehehsdhsh (@James2390421) September 28, 2021

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Glad you posted this. I can’t see how this is not a clear error to give yellow, in any level competition.

MassachusettsRef · Sep 29, 2021

The near consensus everywhere on referee forums seems to be that it's a red card, presumably--or almost certainly--because of the result and where the contact is.

But I just don't see it. I'm hanging my hat on nuance here, but it can't just be the result that matters. Gana comes into the challenge and puts his leg in a place where De Bruyne can't possibly adjust his challenge to avoid. So the question becomes, in my mind, whether or not De Bruyne's challenge has excessive force or inherently endangers the opponent's safety. It clearly does not have excessive force (unless you think De Bruyne has deliberately pushed his leg into Gana once initial contact occurs). Did De Bruyne's challenge endanger Gana's safety or did the actions of both contribute to any endangerment? I obviously have an opinion that seems to contradict the consensus. De Bruyne is reaching with his leg, wins the ball, and flicks it away. Gana is also reaching to win the ball, does not get there first, and his leg slides under where De Bruyne has to place his leg back on the turf. Has De Bruyne acted with complete disregard of the dangers to and consequences for his opponent? Sure. But that's a yellow card. It's the definition of reckless. If you tell me De Bruyne used excessive force or the challenge itself, in a vacuum, endangered Gana's safety, I'd say you're wrong.

It's very easy to watch that play in slo-mo and say "studs into calf/shin, 100% red card!" Watch that in real-time and that's not how it looks at all. It's a bang-bang play where Gana gets his leg in an unfortunate position right at the last moment. It's been made very clear that VAR was not designed to give red cards for that, so I think the VAR non-intervention is good and what we should expect. And, because I'm hanging my hat on nuance, I'll preemptively say this is different from the Danielson red card at EURO where the player launched himself into a situation where the type of contact he made with his opponent, despite getting the ball first, was inevitable or expected (and completely avoidable if he challenged in a different way). Given how Gana went into this, I don't think you can say the same thing here.

MassachusettsRef · Sep 29, 2021

code1390 said: ↑

Cakir never afraid to pull the trigger with a 2YC.

The studs did catch part of the foot, but it's one that quite a few refs don't give as a 2YC IMO.
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This is one of those that is supposed to be 100% yellow card in UEFA. So Cakir gave it. It was a second yellow card? Oh, too bad. Cakir is almost certainly in "I don't give a ...." mode at this point.

Given what we saw this summer, I think Hategan also gives it, by the way. Maybe some others.

Do I give that in the 30th minute of most of the matches I do? No. I use it as a management moment. The location of contact and level of force is hard to discern with one look, so in a non-televised match you can use it as that last "bad foul" warning before a 2CT. But Cakir in a UEFA-level match? He saw it correctly and called what he's instructed to call.