2020-2021 England Referee Appointments (EPL+) [Rs]

RefIADad · May 18, 2021

Mi3ke said: ↑

I used the term "handbags" to describe the "action" to my BIL, driver of son to all of his soccer games for 10+ years. He nodded knowingly at the description. Love the term.

Cheers, Mi3ke
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My personal favorite comes from my New Zealand referee partner. He loves using the term "argy-bargy". I used that one time around some people just to see the reactions. Most of the group looked at me like I had grown a second head . . .

RefIADad · May 18, 2021

Ickshter said: ↑

RC issued to MC. Looks more like the attacker brought him down, but I might have Blue moon lenses....
https://streamja.com/QpG73
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Right call. I wonder how much the AR was talking to Attwell about the location of the foul and the DOGSO components. It looked at first like Attwell was going to a shirt pocket, but then ended up going to his left pocket for the red card. Overall from the team, very solid work getting the foul, the correct spot of the foul, and the DOGSO.

Mikael_Referee · May 19, 2021

SPA vs. DOGSO incident from the Oxford United - Blackpool playoff game handled by Bobby Madley.

https://streamable.com/agfsqa

code1390 · May 19, 2021

Mikael_Referee said: ↑

SPA vs. DOGSO incident from the Oxford United - Blackpool playoff game handled by Bobby Madley.

https://streamable.com/agfsqa
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It's a fun one. My guess is he would have had a really really good scoring opportunity, but it's not DOGSO.

socal lurker · May 19, 2021

I waffle a bit here. I think this *should* be DOGSO--it is a cynical take down by a player who has been beat. But I see the argument about the other defender to the side but slightly ahead of the attacker. I think the expectation here is SPA.

code1390 · May 19, 2021

socal lurker said: ↑

I think the expectation here is SPA.
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Yeah I know what you mean. It feels like a red would be the most just, but that covering defender saves him.

Mikael_Referee · May 19, 2021

socal lurker said: ↑

I waffle a bit here. I think this *should* be DOGSO--it is a cynical take down by a player who has been beat. But I see the argument about the other defender to the side but slightly ahead of the attacker. I think the expectation here is SPA.
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Hit the nail on the head - totally agree!

To add - PGMOL want sth much clearer than this for a RC in the third minute of a playoff game.

MassachusettsRef · May 19, 2021

Interesting. I actually don't find this one to be all that controversial. Feels like a straightforward yellow card to me.

I don't view it as "cynical." It's a desperation attempt to tackle the ball, but it doesn't look or feel like he's aiming for the opponent--that result is just a possibility if he misses the ball. And then the other defender is literally right there; without the foul, I think it's possible that other defender wins the ball (and definitely at least also challenges for the ball) before the attacker gets a shot off.

I think we are thrown off here because it's literally in the center of the park bearing down on goal from 23 yards or so. So it feels like DOGSO to some. But that other defender isn't in any of the diagrams about DOGSO--his presence alone makes it simple for me. It's not a scenario where that defender is a couple yards behind and chasing or trying to intercept from a lateral position... he's literally right there.

socal lurker · May 19, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

I don't view it as "cynical." It's a desperation attempt to tackle the ball, but it doesn't look or feel like he's aiming for the opponent--that result is just a possibility if he misses the ball.
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I guess I look at this as the professional athlete who knows he can't reach the ball but is going in anyway as he knows he can get the trip without making it look awful. I think he knows exactly what he is doing to take down the forward--but I agree it isn't as cynical as some and maybe I'm overthinking it. (At the levels I ref, where players aren't professional athletes with high levels of control, I would always consider this SPA.)

MassachusettsRef · May 19, 2021

socal lurker said: ↑

I guess I look at this as the professional athlete who knows he can't reach the ball but is going in anyway as he knows he can get the trip without making it look awful. I think he knows exactly what he is doing to take down the forward--but I agree it isn't as cynical as some and maybe I'm overthinking it. (At the levels I ref, where players aren't professional athletes with high levels of control, I would always consider this SPA.)
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From my perspective, I believe you are overthinking it. Look how close he actually gets to touching the ball. If not for that very last dribble from the attacker, he probably wins this cleanly. As it stands, it actually took me looking at the replays a few times to be (pretty) sure he doesn't get a glancing touch on the ball.

AremRed · May 19, 2021

Ickshter said: ↑

RC issued to MC. Looks more like the attacker brought him down, but I might have Blue moon lenses....
https://streamja.com/QpG73
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How is that a red? The attacker has no control of the ball, it’s bouncing very high.....I can’t see how this is an OGSO.

Mikael_Referee · May 19, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Interesting. I actually don't find this one to be all that controversial. Feels like a straightforward yellow card to me.

I don't view it as "cynical." It's a desperation attempt to tackle the ball, but it doesn't look or feel like he's aiming for the opponent--that result is just a possibility if he misses the ball. And then the other defender is literally right there; without the foul, I think it's possible that other defender wins the ball (and definitely at least also challenges for the ball) before the attacker gets a shot off.

I think we are thrown off here because it's literally in the center of the park bearing down on goal from 23 yards or so. So it feels like DOGSO to some. But that other defender isn't in any of the diagrams about DOGSO--his presence alone makes it simple for me. It's not a scenario where that defender is a couple yards behind and chasing or trying to intercept from a lateral position... he's literally right there.
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Agree - it's not really controversial (at least IMO) and definitely not cynical, the defender is trying to play the ball quite obviously.

At the exact freeze-frame of the foul, the attacker is ahead of the adjacent defender, so in my computing of DOGSO, that should result in a red card. However, given the doubtfulness of that to the non-refereeing eye, as well as common sense considerations as I mentioned, a yellow card is the appropriate choice there.

What is most telling in terms of practical refereeing - the Oxford players more-or-less totally accept that, despite the expedient small mobbing before.

MassachusettsRef · May 19, 2021

AremRed said: ↑

How is that a red? The attacker has no control of the ball, it’s bouncing very high.....I can’t see how this is an OGSO.
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It's likelihood to control the ball, not control. The first replay angle shown from behind the goal gives a weird perception and makes that ball look a lot higher than it is. Look at the live broadcast feed or even the replay angle from behind the players. The attacker is going to head or chest that ball--you can see he's prepared to do that in stride. It's precisely why the defender hooks his arm.

This one is the cynical one of the two we are discussing on this page. Cancelo whiffs on the ball, knows he's beat for pace, and reflexively grabs an attacker who is going to push the ball past him and have a 1 on 1 with his goalkeeper. I would argue that you shouldn't let the height of the ball confuse the issue here. This is the type of foul that the DOGSO law was written for.

socal lurker · May 19, 2021

I agree with MR. At the professional level of play, without the foul, I think that is sufficiently easily controlled to not be controversial at all as DOGSO.

LampLighter · May 19, 2021

VAR Check for violent conduct: Benteke on Elneny

https://streamable.com/jvfb86

Yellow card upheld.

MassachusettsRef · May 19, 2021

LampLighter said: ↑

VAR Check for violent conduct: Benteke on Elneny

https://streamable.com/jvfb86

Yellow card upheld.
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I feel like the last two weeks or so is really bringing into focus the lengths to which VARs are going to raise the bar on what "clearly wrong" is. Instead of VAR being used to make the big calls that were missed, it's just adding a layer of controversy and making many referees look more incompetent in the eyes of fans and other interested parties.

If I told someone in 2017 that such a play would not be a clear red card via VAR, they'd laugh at me. Hell, we heard arguments that these types of actions would happen far less precisely because of VAR's existence. As someone who was not in favor of VAR broadly speaking, tt was actually one of the more convincing arguments to me, to be honest. Turns out it wasn't true.

LampLighter · May 19, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

I feel like the last two weeks or so is really bringing into focus the lengths to which VARs are going to raise the bar on what "clearly wrong" is. Instead of VAR being used to make the big calls that were missed, it's just adding a layer of controversy and making many referees look more incompetent in the eyes of fans and other interested parties.
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Not just incompetent either, but corrupt. Fans are calling it out as clear corruption and that's really dangerous and worrying.

code1390 · May 19, 2021

How is that not a red card?!?

AremRed · May 20, 2021

code1390 said: ↑

How is that not a red card?!?
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This one?

https://v.redd.it/7vkhq8vyi4071/DASH_1080.mp4?source=fallback

balu · May 20, 2021

Matchweek 38

Arsenal - Brighton
Referee: Jonathan Moss. Assistants: Marc Perry, Timothy Wood. Fourth official: Dean Whitestone. VAR: Simon Hooper. Assistant VAR: Derek Eaton.

Aston Villa - Chelsea
Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Simon Long, Neil Davies. Fourth official: Tim Robinson. VAR: Jared Gillett. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

Fulham - Newcastle
Referee: Chris Kavanagh. Assistants: Dan Cook, Sian Massey-Ellis. Fourth official: James Linington. VAR: Robert Jones. Assistant VAR: Adrian Holmes.

Leeds - West Brom
Referee: David Coote. Assistants: Nick Hopton, Shaun Hudson. Fourth official: Darren Bond. VAR: Graham Scott. Assistant VAR: Dan Robathan.

Leicester - Tottenham
Referee: Anthony Taylor. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn. Fourth official: Keith Stroud. VAR: Peter Bankes. Assistant VAR: Lee Betts.

Liverpool - Crystal Palace
Referee: Andre Marriner. Assistants: Richard West, Scott Ledger. Fourth official: Tony Harrington. VAR: Paul Tierney. Assistant VAR: Eddie Smart.

Man City - Everton
Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Michael Salisbury. VAR: Darren England. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday.

Sheffield - Burnley
Referee: Kevin Friend. Assistants: Simon Beck, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Geoff Eltringham. VAR: Lee Mason. Assistant VAR: Matthew Wilkes.

West Ham - Southampton
Referee: Martin Atkinson. Assistants: Constantine Hatzidakis, James Mainwaring. Fourth official: Matt Donohue. VAR: Craig Pawson. Assistant VAR: Peter Kirkup.

Wolves - Man Utd
Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Ian Hussin, Harry Lennard. Fourth official: John Brooks. VAR: Andy Madley. Assistant VAR: Darren Cann.

Taylor for the big one. Moss, Attwell, Marriner, Oliver, and Atkinson all with matches that could have European ramifications.

RefIADad · May 20, 2021

I would imagine there is no shortage of people in England already writing the narrative about the scenario of Anthony Taylor getting injured and Keith Stroud being put into the middle of a game with significant Champions League implications.

If I were assigning, I'd just put the SG2 referees not working on Saturday into work on the games with no implications at all and make sure games like TOT-LEI and LIV-CRY had a stronger SG1 as the fourth official. For example, I'd have Kavanagh and Friend as fourths on the Liverpool and Leicester matches. There's no reason to have Kavanagh on Fulham-Newcastle, as it has absolutely zero impact on anything. Friend on Sheffield-Burnley is also a waste. I realize you need more referees on the final Sunday because all 10 games start at the same time. But you still need to make sure you have a referee who is proven to handle an upper-level Premier League match on the ready to step into the middle on the matches with CL implications.

Rufusabc · May 20, 2021

code1390 said: ↑

How is that not a red card?!?
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I have no idea. It’s like yesterday when Mike Dean made a mistake and called a foul on Chelsea when it was the other way, and would have resulted in a penalty. And, it doesn’

RefIADad said: ↑

I would imagine there is no shortage of people in England already writing the narrative about the scenario of Anthony Taylor getting injured and Keith Stroud being put into the middle of a game with significant Champions League implications.

If I were assigning, I'd just put the SG2 referees not working on Saturday into work on the games with no implications at all and make sure games like TOT-LEI and LIV-CRY had a stronger SG1 as the fourth official. For example, I'd have Kavanagh and Friend as fourths on the Liverpool and Leicester matches. There's no reason to have Kavanagh on Fulham-Newcastle, as it has absolutely zero impact on anything. Friend on Sheffield-Burnley is also a waste. I realize you need more referees on the final Sunday because all 10 games start at the same time. But you still need to make sure you have a referee who is proven to handle an upper-level Premier League match on the matches with CL implications.
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All the Premier League matches have monetary impact, though. Where you finish is worth hundreds of thousands of pounds.

MassachusettsRef · May 20, 2021

balu said: ↑

Taylor for the big one.
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To perhaps playfully once again show how subjective some of these assessments can be, Atwell stands out as the "big one" for me.

Leicester can't control its own destiny so even if they win, the match could be irrelevant for UCL qualification (leaving aside Spurs' hopes or fears about playing in the new Europa Conference League aside). And at this point, I think people expect Liverpool to win. But Chelsea, away to a Villa side with fans and Grealish back, who also have to prep for the UCL Final while they sit and third place and a draw might not be enough? That's a trap game. That could be a war. I know Oliver and Dean just had Chelsea, but unless I'm missing something I am surprised Taylor or Atkinson isn't on that match. From a referee decision/management perspective, that one looks like it has the opportunity to be most consequential.

The biggest note of all the assignments for me, though, is Darren Cann only on AVAR duty. He's permanently on retirement watch given his age and I would suspect--or hope--his career doesn't end unceremoniously in a VOR. Hopefully this indicates he's back for another season.

MassachusettsRef · May 20, 2021

RefIADad said: ↑

I would imagine there is no shortage of people in England already writing the narrative about the scenario of Anthony Taylor getting injured and Keith Stroud being put into the middle of a game with significant Champions League implications.
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While I share your perspective, I think you vastly overestimate the attention writers pay to fourth official assignments. British tabloid media can right about anything, yes. But this seems like a bridge too far for them.

Mikael_Referee · May 20, 2021

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

While I share your perspective, I think you vastly overestimate the attention writers pay to fourth official assignments. British tabloid media can right about anything, yes. But this seems like a bridge too far for them.
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Actually, talking about about refereeing (not referee's decisions, an important distinction) is seen as verrrry boorish here. The only concept people, including in refereeing itself, really understand is letting the game flow. People aren't interested to 'go deep' in analysing refs.

This is in sharp contrast to eg. Poland, Hungary, Romania.