2020-2021 England Referee Appointments (EPL+) [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Aug 28, 2020.

  1. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #726 MassachusettsRef, Jan 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
    It's all very confusing, huh?!

    For what it's worth, I think your post in reply to mine above was excellent, @Bradley Smith. Walking through the order of operations makes it pretty clear what happened. And that was borne out by the PGMOL statement (though the language could be a little crisper).

    I do think the issue you and @socal lurker identified with the DOGSO foul is an interesting one, though. Unless I'm mistaken, it's a grey area in VAR protocols with HUGE consequences. If we stipulate the VAR does not think the Shaw challenge is SFP...

    If the referee must first affirm the VAR recommendation that it was a DOGSO red card, then there is a real possibility that the result is a DFK going in for Manchester United because there is a chance the referee will disagree with the VAR. Yet, almost perversely, if he concurs it's a red card then it becomes almost 100% certain that the red card won't be shown and the free kick will move 75 yards down the other end and be given to the other team!

    And, of course, if he looks at the APP foul first, the red card discussion is moot. Even though the APP foul is only relevant if the red card is definitely going to be awarded. So we've kind of circumvented or skipped the requirement that the referee agree with the VAR on the DOGSO red card--by showing the APP foul first, we are sort of just presuming there will be agreement.

    I think I know the answer for what MLS would instruct here but I also believe it's so rare that I bet not all MLS VARs would agree on proper procedure. I'll do some digging and try to get the "correct" answer but this one is weird enough that I think different competitions might instruct it different ways... if they instruct for it at all.
     
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  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wasn't sure on this and thought SPA fouls stood. But according to the last VAR Handbook published, you're right. Under "protocol clarifications" and the "Disciplinary action - rescinding cards" header, it explicitly says that SPA cards should be rescinded.

    I would still argue that for fouls like this, which are clearly also reckless in nature, the hurdle for rescinding should be quite high. But that's a battle I'd never win.
     
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  3. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    BigSoccer bragging rights are yours :D

    "Big Six" matches:

    Arsenal - Liverpool (Community Shield): Marriner
    Chelsea - Liverpool: Tierney
    Liverpool - Arsenal: Pawson
    Tottenham - Chelsea (Carabao Cup): Mason
    Liverpool - Arsenal (Carabao Cup): Friend
    Man Utd - Tottenham: Taylor
    Man City - Arsenal: Kavanagh
    Man Utd - Chelsea: Atkinson
    Man Utd - Arsenal: Dean
    Man City - Liverpool: Pawson
    Tottenham - Man City: Dean
    Chelsea - Tottenham: Tierney
    Tottenham - Arsenal: Atkinson
    Man Utd - Man City: Kavanagh
    Liverpool - Tottenham: Taylor
    Arsenal - Man City (Carabao Cup): Attwell
    Arsenal - Chelsea: Oliver
    Chelsea - Man City: Taylor
    Man Utd - Man City (Carabao Cup): Atkinson
    Liverpool - Man Utd: Tierney

    Distribution of these matches in the EPL:

    Taylor: 3
    Tierney: 3
    Atkinson: 2
    Dean: 2
    Kavanagh: 2
    Pawson: 2
    Oliver: 1
     
  4. LampLighter

    LampLighter Member

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019


    93rd minute, elbow into a Wolves head on a corner.
     
  5. GoDawgsGo

    GoDawgsGo Member+

    Nov 11, 2010
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If it's just SPA and not reckless, it should (my opinion) be rescinded. Not saying that's right or not per protocol as I have no idea, I'm just saying that's the fair thing to do. If it's reckless/excessive force, the card should stand.
     
  6. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Handbook is explicit that SPA should be rescinded, so the answer is clear. I was wrong to suggest otherwise.
     
  7. bothways

    bothways Member

    Jun 27, 2009
     
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  8. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Matchweek 19

    Wolves - West Brom
    Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Andy Madley. VAR: David Coote. Assistant VAR: Nick Hopton.

    Leeds - Brighton
    Referee: Kevin Friend. Assistants: Simon Beck, Adrian Holmes. Fourth official: Lee Mason. VAR: Craig Pawson. Assistant VAR: Richard West.

    West Ham - Burnley
    Referee: Chris Kavanagh. Assistants: Ian Hussin, Dan Robathan. Fourth official: Tim Robinson. VAR: Simon Hooper. Assistant VAR: Simon Long.

    Fulham - Chelsea
    Referee: Peter Bankes. Assistants: Neil Davies, James Mainwaring. Fourth official: Mike Dean. VAR: Jarred Gillett. Assistant VAR: Adam Nunn.

    Leicester - Southampton
    Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Harry Lennard, Eddie Smart. Fourth official: Robert Jones. VAR: Jonathan Moss. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday.

    Aston Villa - Everton
    Referee: Anthony Taylor. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn. Fourth official: Chris Kavanagh. VAR: Mike Dean. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday.

    Sheffield - Tottenham
    Referee: Andre Marriner. Assistants: Richard West, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Robert Jones. VAR: Michael Oliver. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday.

    Liverpool - Man Utd
    Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Lee Betts, Constantine Hatzidakis. Fourth official: Craig Pawson. VAR: Stuart Attwell. Assistant VAR: Stuart Burt.

    Man City - Crystal Palace
    Referee: Lee Mason. Assistants: Scott Ledger, Tim Wood. Fourth official: Andy Madley. VAR: Martin Atkinson. Assistant VAR: Peter Kirkup.

    Arsenal - Newcastle
    Referee: David Coote. Assistants: Marc Perry, Nick Hopton. Fourth official: Graham Scott. VAR: Peter Bankes. Assistant VAR: Sian Massey-Ellis.
     
  9. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    West Ham - West Brom
    Referee: Graham Scott. Assistants: Neil Davies, Simon Long. Fourth official: Gavin Ward. VAR: Darren England. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

    Leicester - Chelsea
    Referee: Craig Pawson. Assistants: Ian Hussin, Sian Massey-Ellis. Fourth official: Jonathan Moss. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

    Man City - Aston Villa
    Referee: Jonathan Moss. Assistants: Harry Lennard, Dan Robathan. Fourth official: David Coote. VAR: Andy Madley. Assistant VAR: Simon Beck.

    Fulham - Man Utd
    Referee: Martin Atkinson. Assistants: Peter Kirkup, Eddie Smart. Fourth official: Stuart Attwell. VAR: Kevin Friend. Assistant VAR: Marc Perry.

    Liverpool - Burnley
    Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Darren Cann, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Anthony Taylor. VAR: Lee Mason. Assistant VAR: Matthew Wilkes.

    Pawson with what should be a highly entertaining clash, Massey-Ellis assisting. Dean handles Liverpool again, Atkinson sees Man Utd after overseeing their derby loss in the EFL Cup.
     
  10. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Michael Oliver may he getting his mojo back with two solid penalty calls in the Wolves-West Brom match.
     
  11. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Huge match coming up for Tierney. Lets see how he performs.

    Peter bankes letting the match boil a bit. But put the clamp down with a red for SFP right before halftime.
     
  12. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    Did you think the RC was harsh? I'm not sure I saw any contact with the extended leg, mostly with his trailing leg and even then not much. I'm not saying he didn't come flying in, but I think YC could have worked, especially when few YCs had been given out in the match thus far.
     
  13. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    Stone cold SFP. Could have done a LOT more damage if the Chelsea player left more leg in there.
     
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  14. frankieboylampard

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    trying not to have a bias here. I think it’s justified that at that speed and the point of contact. Albeit high thigh with the trail leg. I think the fact he left his feet that seems to be pretty accepted as potential SFP amongst the non-referee soccer crowd.
     
  15. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    Chelsea
    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It’s a red. Hitting a planted leg at that point of the leg with speed ticks the SFP boxes.
     
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  16. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    I agree that it *could* have done a lot more damage. But I feel like for a while now many referees have been saying since it *didn't* do more damage, a YC is fine. If this were the standard going forward, I'm all aboard. Doubt it will be though.
     
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  17. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    This says alot about the sad state of affairs that the game has come to. Genuine and experienced posters on here are questioning the legitimacy of a pretty clear SFP card because we've gotten so conditioned to them NOT being given.

    We hardly anymore even post about possible SFP red cards that weren't given. There are very few "anyone see X tackle in the 30th minute, could/should that have been a red instead?" Simply, because the whole exercise is a giant waste of time.

    Now we see more "was that obvious leg breaking challenge punished too harshly?"

    My post is not an indictment of the @rh89 but more of an indictment of how modern officiating and VAR has desensitized us to SFP. We just shrug when it's not given, but become shocked when it is.
     
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  18. rh89

    rh89 Member

    Sep 29, 2015
    OR
    I think you nailed it on the head!
     
    Thegreatwar repped this.
  19. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Aston Villa - Newcastle
    Referee: Simon Hooper. Assistants: Darren Cann, Derek Eaton. Fourth official: Mike Dean. VAR: Paul Tierney. Assistant VAR: Dan Cook.
     
  20. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    Matchweek 20

    Crystal Palace - West Ham
    Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Dan Cook, Peter Kirkup. Fourth official: Simon Hooper. VAR: Graham Scott. Assistant VAR: Derek Eaton.

    Newcastle - Leeds
    Referee: Anthony Taylor. Assistants: Gary Beswick, James Mainwaring. Fourth official: Peter Bankes. VAR: Jared Gillett. Assistant VAR: Constantine Hatzidakis.

    Southampton - Arsenal
    Referee: Kevin Friend. Assistants: Simon Beck, Eddie Smart. Fourth official: Keith Stroud. VAR: Robert Jones. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

    West Brom - Man City
    Referee: Chris Kavanagh. Assistants: Adam Nunn, Sian Massey-Ellis. Fourth official: David Coote. VAR: Craig Pawson. Assistant VAR: Matthew Wilkes.

    Burnley - Aston Villa
    Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Ian Hussin, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Darren England. VAR: Stuart Attwell. Assistant VAR: Harry Lennard.

    Chelsea - Wolves
    Referee: Andy Madley. Assistants: Adrian Holmes, Simon Long. Fourth official: Graham Scott. VAR: Lee Mason. Assistant VAR: Scott Ledger.

    Brighton - Fulham
    Referee: Craig Pawson. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Richard West. Fourth official: Gavin Ward. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Timothy Wood.

    Everton - Leicester
    Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Darren Cann, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Tony Harrington. VAR: Simon Hooper. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

    Man Utd - Sheffield
    Referee: Peter Bankes. Assistants: Neil Davies, Nick Hopton. Fourth official: Martin Atkinson. VAR: David Coote. Assistant VAR: Marc Perry.

    Tottenham - Liverpool
    Referee: Martin Atkinson. Assistants: Lee Betts, Constantine Hatzidakis. Fourth official: Kevin Friend. VAR: Jonathan Moss. Assistant VAR: Dan Robathan.

    Atkinson yet again a safe pair of hands for the top clash.
     
  21. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    "Big Six" matches:

    Arsenal - Liverpool (Community Shield): Marriner
    Chelsea - Liverpool: Tierney
    Liverpool - Arsenal: Pawson
    Tottenham - Chelsea (Carabao Cup): Mason
    Liverpool - Arsenal (Carabao Cup): Friend
    Man Utd - Tottenham: Taylor
    Man City - Arsenal: Kavanagh
    Man Utd - Chelsea: Atkinson
    Man Utd - Arsenal: Dean
    Man City - Liverpool: Pawson
    Tottenham - Man City: Dean
    Chelsea - Tottenham: Tierney
    Tottenham - Arsenal: Atkinson
    Man Utd - Man City: Kavanagh
    Liverpool - Tottenham: Taylor
    Arsenal - Man City (Carabao Cup): Attwell
    Arsenal - Chelsea: Oliver
    Chelsea - Man City: Taylor
    Man Utd - Man City (Carabao Cup): Atkinson
    Liverpool - Man Utd: Tierney
    Tottenham - Liverpool: Atkinson

    Distribution of these matches in the EPL:

    Atkinson: 3
    Taylor: 3
    Tierney: 3
    Dean: 2
    Kavanagh: 2
    Pawson: 2
    Oliver: 1
     
  22. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    NBCSN disagrees with part of the offside rule. Aston Villa's goalkeepers kicked the ball down the field, Man City headed it, an Aston Villa kicked out without controlling it, and Man City took at and scored. A Man City player was way offside when his teammate headed the ball, but the Aston Villa player touching it reset to remove the offside. Aston Villa's manager was ejected. The decision was reviewed and remained correct.
     
  23. Unnaturallybigger

    United States
    Jun 28, 2019
    Technically a correct non call, but clearly not correct in terms of the "spirit of the law".
     
  24. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    absolutely not. The AV defender clearly plays the ball. There is no spirit there only a really bad play by a defender.
     
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  25. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think this falls squarely in the grey zone adjacent to "technically correct."

    We've talked before about how there must be some common sense allowance around the "challenges an opponent" clause. It cannot be that an attacker, having previously been in an offside position, is suddenly allowed to legally challenge a defender for the ball the instant it is actually played by that defender. Otherwise, some pretty farcical scenarios that would technically be onside would ensue.

    In this case, Mings chest the ball to control it with the attacker about 3-4 yards away. By the time the ball hits the ground from his chest, he is being physically challenged.

    I have no idea what the answer is supposed to be here. If the attacker was much closer, we'd be calling this offside without any doubt. If he was further away and Mings took two or three touches on the ball or had 1-2 seconds of control, we wouldn't even think about offside.

    Here? I don't know. I don't know what the guidance is for EPL ARs on this. The fact that it wasn't overturned by VAR tells me this wasn't clearly an error, per guidance. But that's probably because this is a subjective decision and the "obvious" standard is high in the EPL.
     

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